And I will raise him up at the last day?

[ViaCrucis]

Hi PCC, you seem to be the only one implying any secret code?

What do you think about the Matt 24/Rev 6 parallel that seems to show Jesus stating in Matt 24 that his angels would gather his elect during the events that match Rev 6?

The sixth seal seems to be a reference to the Day of Judgment.

The Apocalypse isn't a chronology of the end times, but a visionary declaration of God's victory over the world through Christ (and in Christ we too having the victory of God).

-CryptoLutheran

 

[1Timothy316]

The sixth seal seems to be a reference to the Day of Judgment.

The Apocalypse isn't a chronology of the end times, but a visionary declaration of God's victory over the world through Christ (and in Christ we too having the victory of God).

-CryptoLutheran

I don't know if you're calling Revelation the Apocalypse?

I believe it is called Revelation because it is the reveal of the events leading up to, during, and after the second coming of Jesus Christ?

 

[zeke37]

Zeke37, you sure do make long confusing posts... I still don't understand your point

hi
it was not that long. and it was not even all of it.
next we would have gotten into Rev15-16

To me, your point should be simple and with scriptural support?

lol....how much MORE scripture do you need? wow...as long as you can read, it's "simple"
whether you agree or not, the premise is simple


here is the premise again....

the mentionings of His wrath/the wrath of God,
are a good way to build a timeline in Rev.

simple stuff...and I gave plenty of scripture.

 

[Christophercbm]

Yes that is what it means
Christ comes at the last day, and still has the wrath of God with Him,
ergo, the wrath of God is NOT the tribulation.


completely correct.
don't let a pre tribber or "pre wrather" tell you differently



God has two kinds of wrath.
He has a wrath that is poured out on folks, at His Coming
that is a refining wrath for some....but not for all.

but at the end of the last day,
His final wrath is poured out at the final Judgement


i'm not...because of 1Cor15's mystery change....
flesh and blood cannot inherrit the Kingdom of God.
and He IS setting up His Kingdom

Christ, coming here in His Glory, is too much for flesh and blood to handle
so, as 1Cor15 says, we shall all be changed, even animals as described in Isa.
meat eaters lying down with plant eaters,
children playing with the most dangerous animals etc.

that particular chapter is badly translated...
it's full of hebraisms, and other figures of speech


imo of scripture, the Millennium is a time of refinement.
All of Ez 40-48 is about the Millennium
Ez44 describes the scene from two points of view
from the bad teachers point of view, and from the good teachers point of view

huge difference, but those deceived, even the teachers, are not going to be destroyed...
limited, but not destroyed


John14 has nothing to do with His 2nd Coming per say.
All we need to do is continue to read the chapter and learn that
because he goes to His Father, we can do amazing things.

that is true for us today, and them way back then.
Christ already went to the Father, and sits there today making intercession for us.
ONLY through Him, are we a part of God's house
ONLY through Him, do we find "rest" in God

but anyway, just continue to read the chapter,
and then realize that the statement is not about the end times,
because it is true for them back then, and us today.

it's one of the many pre trib supposed proofs, that has no merit.


He did not mean a literal place, or mansion,
He meant that He would make it possible for us to get into God's house.
we can be under His roof so to speak, with Him as head of the household.

remember what things had progressed to in Christ's day,
let alone in our Babylonian churchology


1Thes4:13 continues until 1Thes5:11, talking about that same last day.
the thought continues past the chapter break.


what if that judgement begins at His Coming,
and lasts until final judgement at the end of the Millennium.
that's enough time for the seduced/deceived Christians
to be refined, as precious metal is refined

i'm not...because of 1Cor15's mystery change....
flesh and blood cannot inherrit the Kingdom of God.
and He IS setting up His Kingdom

I dont know that I buy this part. I think Isaiah makes it clear that there is going to be flesh beings in the Millennium.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

So, if the rapture occurs after the tribulation that will leave no flesh to populate the Millennial Kingdom, because all believers will be translated into spiritual bodies and all the wicked will be destroyed.

We know that in the rapture all the believers are taken and its everyone else who is left

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

BUT, at the second coming, its the opposite, the wicked are taken and everyone else is left.

Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

And the ones who are left, will be the ones who populate the Millennial Kingdom.

 

[Laurabenson]

I dont know that I buy this part. I think Isaiah makes it clear that there is going to be flesh beings in the Millennium.

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

So, if the rapture occurs after the tribulation that will leave no flesh to populate the Millennial Kingdom, because all believers will be translated into spiritual bodies and all the wicked will be destroyed.

We know that in the rapture all the believers are taken and its everyone else who is left

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

BUT, at the second coming, its the opposite, the wicked are taken and everyone else is left.

Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

And the ones who are left, will be the ones who populate the Millennial Kingdom.

This is correct. You are right on target and biblically accurate.

 

[zeke37]

I dont know that I buy this part. I think Isaiah makes it clear that there is going to be flesh beings in the Millennium.

I don't.
as I said in my response

that particular chapter is badly translated...
it's full of hebraisms, and other figures of speech

​

Isa 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.

no more infant of days, or old men

the part you underlined is a Hebraism,
it is based on the first part of the verse,
and it is badly translated.

Isa 65:21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them.
Isa 65:22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree are the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
Isa 65:23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they are the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them.
Isa 65:24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear.

the above does not need "flesh" to accomplish.
we shall do all that in incorruptible bodies after we are changed

Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

why? because there is no flesh anymore...
even the animals cannot abide in the Glory of the Lord,
because they are flesh

carnivours and herbivours and omnivours, all together.
no destruction. no hurting.

remember that "death" has been defeated at His Coming.

So, if the rapture occurs after the tribulation that will leave no flesh to populate the Millennial Kingdom, because all believers will be translated into spiritual bodies and all the wicked will be destroyed.

of course. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God
and we are all changed at His Coming,
into the same kind of incorruptible spirit bodies,
like the angels in heaven have today.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
​

We know that in the rapture all the believers are taken and its everyone else who is left

the believers are not "taken" off of the planet.
they are "waiting" here for Him to come
they are gathered to Him.

and a little digging get us far.
1Thes4 is a retelling of 1Cor15, using different words to different people.
we are harpazo'd to Christ at His Coming.
that's SIEZED to Christ at His Coming.

we are all "changed" to spirit at His Coming,
and a simple greek synonym for spirit, is AIR (aer)

as for the clouds,
well, that's the clouds of witnesses that Paul speaks of in Heb12:1
it's the same "clouds" that come with Him at His Coming in Mat24 and Rev1.
the Clouds represent the masses of righteous dead.

1Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thess 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

BUT, at the second coming, its the opposite, the wicked are taken and everyone else is left.

listen, you are mixed up.

this IS the 2nd Coming in 1Thes4.
the Raising that Christ speaks of in John 6 and 11, IS occuring in 1Thes4

and those of us who are alive at that time,
are only gathered to Christ AFTER the dead are brought from heaven and raised here

it's the very last day.
1Thes4:13 begins Paul's subject of the last day.
it continues past the chapter break (added by men centuries later)
into 1Thes5 and goes till verse 11

1Thes4:13-1Thes5:11...same last day

Matt 24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
Matt 24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
Matt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

And the ones who are left, will be the ones who populate the Millennial Kingdom.

the ones taken, are taken in judgement.
the ones left, are working for Him, thus blessed.

there is no pre trib rapture.
the rapture is at the last day,
and during it, we do not leave the planet.

I used to believe in pre trib.
it is deception, truly.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Christophercbm;62704672]

Ok, I have been studying the pre-tribulation rapture lately and I have come across some good reasons to believe it (maybe). However, what does Jesus mean by the "last day" in the following verse's?



I know that there will be a resurrection at the rapture when the "dead in Christ" are raised, but if this occurs at the "last day", wouldn't that mean that the rapture occurs after the tribulation?

The first question you should ask is which last day..............meaning if I said I would fill the truck with the harvest on the last day........what would that mean.

All we hear is last day.......last day.......last day.........there's your proof, the last day is the last day........so they say.

The real question is which harvest are you talking about. There is a last day of the wheat harvest, and there is a last day of the grape harvest. They are not the same day. Even so..........there is more than one last day.

Learn the parable of the fig tree.

 

[dfw69]

Christophercbm;62704672]

The first question you should ask is which last day..............meaning if I said I would fill the truck with the harvest on the last day........what would that mean.

All we hear is last day.......last day.......last day.........there's your proof, the last day is the last day........so they say.

The real question is which harvest are you talking about. There is a last day of the wheat harvest, and there is a last day of the grape harvest. They are not the same day. Even so..........there is more than one last day.

Learn the parable of the fig tree.

That's true... Theres more than one harvest... there is an early and latter harvest....


There is a Harvest offering on the second day of Passover... It's a wave offering of barley ... Some say they wave the early harvested sheaf before The Lord ...some say they raised the barley after its been sift before The Lord (a symbol of a resurrection)

Then there is another wave offering on Pentecost..called The firstfruits...which is another early harvest offering of barley...it's lifted up also to The Lord ...as it was before on the second day of Passover ...

 

[ViaCrucis]

I don't know if you're calling Revelation the Apocalypse?

I believe it is called Revelation because it is the reveal of the events leading up to, during, and after the second coming of Jesus Christ?

The Greek word apokalupsis means "unveiling" or "revealing", hence apocalypse. The last book of the Bible is known as the apokalupsis, the Apocalypse, or the Revelation. I use "the Apocalypse" and "the Revelation" interchangeably. Sometimes using a full title such as the Revelation of St. John, or St. John's Apocalypse. It's just habit for me.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[zeke37]

That's true... Theres more than one harvest... there is an early and latter harvest....


There is a Harvest offering on the second day of Passover... It's a wave offering of barley ...

it's called firstfruits, and it was/is a wave offering...
and at Passover, it is offered after three nights and three days
just like the Resurrection of Christ happened after three nights and three days
not on the 2nd day

it becomes property of the priests, so they can eat/live etc.

Firstfruits Wave offering has been fulfilled when Christ rose from the grave.


a wave offereing was also done at the wheat harvest (bread)
that is at Shavu'ot (what we wrongly call Pentecost)


it's a single Sabbath (Passover/first day of Unleavened bread),
plus a week of weeks (7x7) removed from Passover/Unleavened bread

ya it's 50, but that's not what the Lord wanted us to call it, for a reason.


we start to count the 7x7 on the 2nd day of Firstfruits/Passover
because the first day after is always a High Sabbath
regardless of the day of the week


so, start counting after the High Sabbath that begins Firstfruits,
count 7x7
and then it is the Wheat Harvest.


as i said, there's wave offering there too
that's the time of year that Moses gave the Law, after escaping from Egypt
God's people became a nation....it's a HUGE deal.
it is fulfilled in Acts2 with the giving of the Holy Spirit to God's grafted in nation(s).

Some say they wave the early harvested sheaf before The Lord ...

they do, but the harvest of the crop immediately follows

some say they raised the barley after its been sift before The Lord (a symbol of a resurrection)

don't see anything in the bible about that

Then there is another wave offering on Pentecost..called The firstfruits...which is another early harvest offering of barley...it's lifted up also to The Lord ...as it was before on the second day of Passover ...

actually, that's a little incorrect.
the barley is already harvested by Shvu'ot

it's a different crop (hence why the HS was given to gentiles)
it's the WHEAT harvest (Bread) and it is not called firstfruits.
Firstfruits is 3 days and nights after Passover (Resurrection)

but there was a wave offering of that wheat crop too.

 

[dfw69]

it's called firstfruits, and it was/is a wave offering...
and at Passover, it is offered after three nights and three days
just like the Resurrection of Christ happened after three nights and three days
not on the 2nd day

it becomes property of the priests, so they can eat/live etc.

Firstfruits Wave offering has been fulfilled when Christ rose from the grave.


a wave offereing was also done at the wheat harvest (bread)
that is at Shavu'ot (what we wrongly call Pentecost)


it's a single Sabbath (Passover/first day of Unleavened bread),
plus a week of weeks (7x7) removed from Passover/Unleavened bread

ya it's 50, but that's not what the Lord wanted us to call it, for a reason.


we start to count the 7x7 on the 2nd day of Firstfruits/Passover
because the first day after is always a High Sabbath
regardless of the day of the week


so, start counting after the High Sabbath that begins Firstfruits,
count 7x7
and then it is the Wheat Harvest.


as i said, there's wave offering there too
that's the time of year that Moses gave the Law, after escaping from Egypt
God's people became a nation....it's a HUGE deal.
it is fulfilled in Acts2 with the giving of the Holy Spirit to God's grafted in nation(s).



they do, but the harvest of the crop immediately follows


don't see anything in the bible about that


actually, that's a little incorrect.
the barley is already harvested by Shvu'ot

it's a different crop (hence why the HS was given to gentiles)
it's the WHEAT harvest (Bread) and it is not called firstfruits.
Firstfruits is 3 days after Passover (Resurrection)

but there was a wave offering of that wheat crop too.

Thank you for correcting me... Need to study more of this... So I have it right in my head.... But why lift it up to The Lord? How do they know its been accepted by god ...? What did this symbolized?

 

[dfw69]

I heard the bread offered was leavened (unlike the feast of unleavened bread ) and they offered two breads (symbol of Jew and gentile)

What day did feast of unleavened bread fall on?

 

[zeke37]

it was really the priests payment and livelihood.
after offering it to God, they got to keep it.

wave it around, up high in the air, offer it to the Lord....
and then keep it for provision.

the feasts tell of Christ
the wave offering, must mean good things to come....
the main harvest is after the wave offering.
why they waved it?

I found this online...
I read it quickly, and do not agree with all of it,
but it gets some basics across...
feel free to have a looksi

Wave Offering, Sacrafice for Sin

 

[zeke37]

I heard the bread offered was leavened (unlike the feast of unleavened bread ) and they offered two breads (symbol of Jew and gentile)

What day did feast of unleavened bread fall on?

the offering's were strait out of the ground.

only the crop, not any added yeast

leaven is yeast...rising...which means the bread would have to be made.
but this offering was not with made finished bread...
it was with the raw materials, the crop only (wheat/barley)

it was bound in a SMALL bundle and waved around in a special manner

the feast of unleavened bread begins at the dusk of the 14th/15th
of the first month ABIB
it begins when they eat the Passover Lamb at dusk

it was then the high Sabbath

this year, the jews celebrated it just the other day, Monday Mar25th at dusk
until Tuesday at dusk.

they were/are wrong, but that's when they did it
they are in their Feast of Unleavened bread from Monday dusk, till Sunday

the true date is today, Wed, when the sun sets in Jerusalem.
so Unleavened bread legitimately starts Wed at dusk.

this year, it happens to be the same days of the week, as when Christ died.
He was killed on Wed at dusk (the Lord caused it to go dark in the afternoon)

 

[dfw69]

the offering's were strait out of the ground.

only the crop, not any added yeast

leaven is yeast...rising...which means the bread would have to be made.
but this offering was not with made finished bread...
it was with the raw materials, the crop only (wheat/barley)

it was bound in a SMALL bundle and waved around in a special manner

the feast of unleavened bread begins at the dusk of the 14th/15th
of the first month ABIB
it begins when they eat the Passover Lamb at dusk

it was then the high Sabbath

this year, the jews celebrated it just the other day, Monday Mar25th at dusk
until Tuesday at dusk.

they were/are wrong, but that's when they did it
they are in their Feast of Unleavened bread from Monday dusk, till Sunday

the true date is today, Wed, when the sun sets in Jerusalem.
so Unleavened bread legitimately starts Wed at dusk.

this year, it happens to be the same days of the week, as when Christ died.
He was killed on Wed at dusk (the Lord caused it to go dark in the afternoon)

Yep..... But don't they offer or bring two leaven breads along with the wheat offering on penticost (Shavuot)?

 

[IvinViljoen]

The word 'rapture' is actually not a word that appears in the Bible. The last days are the days of Jesus' return, when it's all fulfilled and done.

 

[zeke37]

Yep..... But don't they offer or bring two leaven breads along with the wheat offering on penticost (Shavuot)?

Shavo'ut, the festival of weeks,
Yes to your question
it seems the 2 loaves of new barley bread (from Passover's harvest) were leavened,
actually this wave offering is the only time leavened bread was allowed in the Temple
i'm pretty new to the feasts of the Lord studies, so I searched the net...

but everything is available for us to figure out.

google is a powerful tool

 

[zeke37]

The word 'rapture' is actually not a word that appears in the Bible. The last days are the days of Jesus' return, when it's all fulfilled and done.

you and I will get along fine

 

[yeshuasavedme]

Ok, I have been studying the pre-tribulation rapture lately and I have come across some good reasons to believe it (maybe). However, what does Jesus mean by the "last day" in the following verse's?

John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

I know that there will be a resurrection at the rapture when the "dead in Christ" are raised, but if this occurs at the "last day", wouldn't that mean that the rapture occurs after the tribulation?

The last day is the series of days counted as one week of one thousand years each.
There are seven millenniums for this present creation, and Jesus came in the beginning of the end of the week, at the end of the fourth millennium.

We are at the end of the 6th day.

 

[zeke37]

the last day, is the very last day...the last day of the trib.

it's the day that Christ comes, the AC is defeated,
the Resurrection of the righteous and the rapture occurs.
and then God pours His wrath