Jesus was not an Arminian

[JackSparrow]

Ezekiel 18:21 “But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die."

Ezekiel 18:1
Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,...

And while we are in Ezekiel 18, let's read another truth...
24 "But when a righteous man turns away from his righteousness, commits iniquity and does according to all the abominations that a wicked man does, will he live? All his righteous deeds which he has done will not be remembered for his treachery which he has committed and his sin which he has committed; for them he will die."

Can someone tell me which letter of TULIP does this contradict?

All of them ? I am told that they all hang together. If one falls then they all fall. This was from a high Calvinist.


Originally Posted by elman
Jesus calls all wicked to turn to righteousness.
Originally Posted by Boxer
Chapter and verse please.



John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome[a] it.

6 "There was a man sent from God whose name was John. 7 He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe. 8 He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light." 9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.


As for his own - 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him !

 

[cygnusx1]

Gal 2:16-21
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" NIV


Gal 2:16-21
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV


Gal 2:16-3:1
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. ASV

Gal 2:16-21
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. 17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NASB

Gal 2:16-21
yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we ourselves were found to be sinners, is Christ then an agent of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
RSV

Gal 2:16-21
yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. 17 But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
NRSV

Gal 2:16-21
Yet we know that a person is put right with God only through faith in Jesus Christ, never by doing what the Law requires. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be put right with God through our faith in Christ, and not by doing what the Law requires. For no one is put right with God by doing what the Law requires. 17 If, then, as we try to be put right with God by our union with Christ, we are found to be sinners, as much as the Gentiles are — does this mean that Christ is serving the cause of sin? By no means! 18 If I start to rebuild the system of Law that I tore down, then I show myself to be someone who breaks the Law. 19 So far as the Law is concerned, however, I am dead — killed by the Law itself — in order that I might live for God. I have been put to death with Christ on his cross, 20 so that it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. This life that I live now, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me. 21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!
TEV

Gal 2:16-21
And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ — and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." 17 But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18 Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19 For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.
NLT

Acts 18:27


[27] And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace

2 Peter 1:1

Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours

 

[Carmella Prochaska]

What does that verse have to do with us being puppets? You just misquoted Jesus' prayer.

The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ. The most obvious fault with this doctrine is that it makes the gospel an unreasonable demand. How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent", knowing the command is impossible to obey?

This is a vexing problem for Calvinists. They will often assert that a command does not necessarily imply the ability to keep it. But the statement is certainly not self-evident. If God gives a command and threatens to punish as responsible agents those who do not comply, it certainly does imply the ability to obey. Orville Dewey writes: "...it would follow that men are commanded, on peril and pain of all future woes, to love a holiness and a moral perfection of God, which they are not merely unable to love, but of which, according to the supposition, they have no conception."

That puts the Calvinist in a conundrum. Man is so corrupt, he will not and cannot obey even the slightest spiritual command - nor can he appreciate or even understand it. Yet, God orders him to believe; He punishes him for not believing. As Judge of the Universe, he justly condemns the sinner for not doing what he from birth cannot do. This seems to many of us to be at loggerheads with God's revealed character.

The Old Testament demands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers. Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach". What of Total Inability here? Are we to assume that all of the hearers had received the miracle of Efficacious Grace? Moses adds, "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways and the commands, decrees and laws...".

Moses sets life and death before the Israelites for their consideration. There is no intimation there that he was speaking to people utterly incapable of complying with the commands. He presents the prospects of life and death as genuine options for them to ponder.

Joshua urged the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord". There is nothing in Joshua's entreaty that suggests the Israelites were all unable to choose the Lord unless they first experienced an inward miracle.

Joshua did say that the people were "not able to serve the Lord" in their present sinful state. Repentance was in order. They were called upon to make a choice of the heart and turn from their evil ways. Joshua said,"throw away your foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel". Nowhere are we left with the impression that these people were all in a state of Total Inability from birth, innately incapable of yielding as Joshua commanded. Such an idea must be read into the text.

The New Testament uses the same language. On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes,"With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'". Was Peter "pleading" with these people to do something they were impotent to do? He certainly gives no hint of it. Furthermore, Peter's admonition "save yourselves" would probably be viewed as less than orthodox by many Calvinists.

Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven". Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers. But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God.

 

[Skala]

What does that verse have to do with us being puppets? You just misquoted Jesus' prayer.

The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ. The most obvious fault with this doctrine is that it makes the gospel an unreasonable demand. How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent", knowing the command is impossible to obey?

I have two replies sister:

The first is that with the gospel message, God sends the enablement that is necessary for the elect to repent.

Secondly, you need to understand why men are "unable". It's not for anything imposed on them. It's not for lack of certain faculties that make repentance a possibility. But rather it's because they are unwilling to repent. Since a person can only do what he's willing to do, if a man is unwilling to repent, it is rightly said that he is unable to repent.

Thus man's inability is directly linked to his unwillingness.

Therefore, there is no "vexing problem for Calvinism" as you have imagined. It is perfectly biblical to say that God commands people who are unwilling to repent, to repent.

For saying that man is unwilling and saying he is unable, for a Calvinist, is one and the same thing. The two are synonymous.

That should pretty much refute the rest of your post as your entire argument is based on a faulty understanding of Calvinism to begin with.

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

Gal 2:16-21
know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one will be justified. 17 "If, while we seek to be justified in Christ, it becomes evident that we ourselves are sinners, does that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, I prove that I am a lawbreaker. 19 For through the law I died to the law so that I might live for God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but Christ lives in me. The life I live in the body, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!" NIV


Gal 2:16-21
knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."
NKJV


Gal 2:16-3:1
yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed, I prove myself a transgressor.19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that (life) which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, (the faith) which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. 21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought. ASV

Gal 2:16-21
nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we may be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified. 17 "But if, while seeking to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have also been found sinners, is Christ then a minister of sin? May it never be! 18 "For if I rebuild what I have once destroyed, I prove myself to be a transgressor. 19 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might live to God. 20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered Himself up for me. 21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
NASB

Gal 2:16-21
yet who know that a man is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ, and not by works of the law, because by works of the law shall no one be justified. 17 But if, in our endeavor to be justified in Christ, we ourselves were found to be sinners, is Christ then an agent of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again those things which I tore down, then I prove myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law, that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me; and the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification were through the law, then Christ died to no purpose.
RSV

Gal 2:16-21
yet we know that a person is justified not by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ. And we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by doing the works of the law, because no one will be justified by the works of the law. 17 But if, in our effort to be justified in Christ, we ourselves have been found to be sinners, is Christ then a servant of sin? Certainly not! 18 But if I build up again the very things that I once tore down, then I demonstrate that I am a transgressor. 19 For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ; 20 and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I do not nullify the grace of God; for if justification comes through the law, then Christ died for nothing.
NRSV

Gal 2:16-21
Yet we know that a person is put right with God only through faith in Jesus Christ, never by doing what the Law requires. We, too, have believed in Christ Jesus in order to be put right with God through our faith in Christ, and not by doing what the Law requires. For no one is put right with God by doing what the Law requires. 17 If, then, as we try to be put right with God by our union with Christ, we are found to be sinners, as much as the Gentiles are — does this mean that Christ is serving the cause of sin? By no means! 18 If I start to rebuild the system of Law that I tore down, then I show myself to be someone who breaks the Law. 19 So far as the Law is concerned, however, I am dead — killed by the Law itself — in order that I might live for God. I have been put to death with Christ on his cross, 20 so that it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. This life that I live now, I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave his life for me. 21 I refuse to reject the grace of God. But if a person is put right with God through the Law, it means that Christ died for nothing!
TEV

Gal 2:16-21
And yet we Jewish Christians know that we become right with God, not by doing what the law commands, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be accepted by God because of our faith in Christ — and not because we have obeyed the law. For no one will ever be saved by obeying the law." 17 But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! 18 Rather, I make myself guilty if I rebuild the old system I already tore down. 19 For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God's approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. 20 I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21 I am not one of those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.
NLT

I have no faith "IN" a NIV,REVELATION comes far more properly from a (((KJV))). All these new translations are a conspiracy against true Protestant Christianity through JESUIT\ROMAN CATHOLIC infiltration...They all SUBTILY like a SERPENT lead people away from the TRUE WORD OF GOD. I'm not saying it's wrong to use them...but I do believe it's very wrong to use them as your BASE\FOUNDATION.

 

[crimsonleaf]

The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ. The most obvious fault with this doctrine is that it makes the gospel an unreasonable demand. How can God, who is perfectly just, "command all men everywhere to repent", knowing the command is impossible to obey?

It is impossible not because God makes it so, but because we make it so.

This is a vexing problem for Calvinists. They will often assert that a command does not necessarily imply the ability to keep it. But the statement is certainly not self-evident. If God gives a command and threatens to punish as responsible agents those who do not comply, it certainly does imply the ability to obey. Orville Dewey writes: "...it would follow that men are commanded, on peril and pain of all future woes, to love a holiness and a moral perfection of God, which they are not merely unable to love, but of which, according to the supposition, they have no conception."

Man does have the ability to comply, but not the will. The fallen and corrupt will is a consequence of our hereditary link with Adam. There is no vexing problem for us. Man's will is the culprit, not God's.

That puts the Calvinist in a conundrum. Man is so corrupt, he will not and cannot obey even the slightest spiritual command - nor can he appreciate or even understand it. Yet, God orders him to believe; He punishes him for not believing. As Judge of the Universe, he justly condemns the sinner for not doing what he from birth cannot do. This seems to many of us to be at loggerheads with God's revealed character.

When saying that man "cannot" do something, it is purely because he "will not". I would claim that I cannot throw myself from a tall building; I will claim I cannot strike a baby; I can claim that I cannot take another's life. clearly, I can do all of things, but I don't have the will to. You need to examine the language used in a more understanding way.

The Old Testament demands never seemed to be presented as impossibilities for the hearers. Moses said, "Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach". What of Total Inability here? Are we to assume that all of the hearers had received the miracle of Efficacious Grace? Moses adds, "See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in his ways and the commands, decrees and laws...".

Moses sets life and death before the Israelites for their consideration. There is no intimation there that he was speaking to people utterly incapable of complying with the commands. He presents the prospects of life and death as genuine options for them to ponder.

Not incapable, unwilling.

Joshua urged the Israelites, "choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord". There is nothing in Joshua's entreaty that suggests the Israelites were all unable to choose the Lord unless they first experienced an inward miracle.

Joshua did say that the people were "not able to serve the Lord" in their present sinful state. Repentance was in order. They were called upon to make a choice of the heart and turn from their evil ways. Joshua said,"throw away your foreign gods that are among you and yield your hearts to the Lord, the God of Israel". Nowhere are we left with the impression that these people were all in a state of Total Inability from birth, innately incapable of yielding as Joshua commanded. Such an idea must be read into the text.

The New Testament uses the same language. On the day of Pentecost, Peter preached before thousands who had gathered in Jerusalem. Luke writes,"With many other words he warned them; and he pleaded with them, 'Save yourselves from this corrupt generation'". Was Peter "pleading" with these people to do something they were impotent to do? He certainly gives no hint of it. Furthermore, Peter's admonition "save yourselves" would probably be viewed as less than orthodox by many Calvinists.

The bible is full of entreaties by God and others for men to change their ways. Every man is given a chance and begged to change his ways. This is a demonstration of God's justice and love - that no man is without excuse. But the plain fact is, man WILL not succumb to God's will. God certainly isn't stopping him - man is stopping himself.

Jesus himself did not seem to have been a believer in Total Inability. We read in Mark 4:11,12 that he spoke in parables as a judgment against the obstinate Jews. The purpose of parables was to keep his message from entering their ears, "otherwise they might turn and be forgiven". Had those stiff-necked people been allowed to hear the truth straight out, they might have turned to receive it. But how? Calvinism tells us that no one can turn and receive the forgiveness of sins because of Total Inability passed from Adam. There must first be an inward miracle of the heart, an "effectual call."

Calvinist preachers will sometimes say that they can never persuade natural men of the gospel no matter how openly, clearly and earnestly they may preach it. It is like presenting a sermon to a corpse - there is no response. Jesus, however, felt it necessary to obscure his message in parables to keep certain people from responding to it. Had he preached the truth openly they would have turned and been forgiven. This fact alone is fatal to the Calvinist dogma, for it contradicts the notion that all men have a native inability to believe.

You reject Reformed doctrines on the one hand and admit that Jesus was aiming for a select audience on the other. Interesting.

Jesus sometimes "marvelled" at the unbelief of his hearers. But if he subscribed to and taught Total Inability, it would have been no marvel at all that men would disbelieve God.

No Calvinist would see anything wrong is Jesus' marvelling. I marvel at the stubborn unbelief some display too. But, as I've previously said, it is man who WILL NOT turn to God, not CANNOT.

Edit: Skala posted whilst I was composing. That boy's quick.

 

[crimsonleaf]

The Total Inability passed to us makes it impossible for us to comply with the command to believe in Christ.

Hi again. Hopefully, if you read Skala's post and mine together you'll see that Calvinists are on the same page with this. We give the responsibility for rejecting Christ fully to man. No Calvinist who studies Scripture will ever conclude that God blocks anyone from Himself. It is man who turns his back on God.

 

[Shulamite]

It is impossible not because God makes it so, but because we make it so.



Man does have the ability to comply, but not the will. The fallen and corrupt will is a consequence of our hereditary link with Adam. There is no vexing problem for us. Man's will is the culprit, not God's.



When saying that man "cannot" do something, it is purely because he "will not". I would claim that I cannot throw myself from a tall building; I will claim I cannot strike a baby; I can claim that I cannot take another's life. clearly, I can do all of things, but I don't have the will to. You need to examine the language used in a more understanding way.





Not incapable, unwilling.





The bible is full of entreaties by God and others for men to change their ways. Every man is given a chance and begged to change his ways. This is a demonstration of God's justice and love - that no man is without excuse. But the plain fact is, man WILL not succumb to God's will. God certainly isn't stopping him - man is stopping himself.



You reject Reformed doctrines on the one hand and admit that Jesus was aiming for a select audience on the other. Interesting.



No Calvinist would see anything wrong is Jesus' marvelling. I marvel at the stubborn unbelief some display too. But, as I've previously said, it is man who WILL NOT turn to God, not CANNOT.

Edit: Skala posted whilst I was composing. That boy's quick.

Amen

 

[Skala]

That boy's quick.

 

[JackSparrow]

No Calvinist who studies Scripture will ever conclude that God blocks anyone from Himself. It is man who turns his back on God.

Two Calvinist who wrote and published the following did.


"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will."

" God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death."


"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

 

[crimsonleaf]

Thw Calvinist who wrote and published the following did.


"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will."

" God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death."


"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

Yeah, that's a hard line Calvinist. Note the double-predestination. Most that I know are single-predestination believers.

But even then, I don't believe that the fallen have fallen AGAINST God's will, because I believe that God's will is always done. You just need to define WILL, which is where we get into the permissive will vs decretive will debate.

Do you believe that the fall was in opposition to God's will and that Christ was God's plan B for salvation?

 

[Arcoe]

Thw Calvinist who wrote and published the following did.


"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will."

" God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death."


"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

I have asked Calvinists which came first, God's eternal decree or God's omniscience? I'm still waiting.

 

[Arcoe]

Yeah, that's a hard line Calvinist. Note the double-predestination. Most that I know are single-predestination believers.

But even then, I don't believe that the fallen have fallen AGAINST God's will, because I believe that God's will is always done. You just need to define WILL, which is where we get into the permissive will vs decretive will debate.

Do you believe that the fall was in opposition to God's will and that Christ was God's plan B for salvation?

I would like to get straight answers from the Calvinists, if I may.

To whom of the Calvinist camp has the Spirit given genuine truths?

Why do Calvinists have differing beliefs?

I just can't put my finger on why the Spirit would give truths to some Calvinists and lies to others. Who is telling the truth?

We, of the other camp, will never know what Calvinists truly believe, for they all do not believe the same thing.

Any takers?

 

[Skala]

Thw Calvinist who wrote and published the following did.


"I admit that in this miserable condition wherein men are now bound, all of Adam's children have fallen by God's will."

" God ... arranges all things by his counsel, in such a way that individuals are born, who are doomed from the womb to certain death."


"We call predestination God's eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is fore-ordained for some, eternal damnation for others."

None of those quotes contradict what Crimson said. The quotes are about why man has fallen, and only serve to show that itw as God's plan and purpose for mankind to fall.

None of the quotes say anything about God, by positive action, preventing someone from coming to Him in repentance. Sure you see the difference.

You come off as desperately trying to find a quote that you can shoehorn and force to say something it didn't intend to say.

 

[Skala]

I have asked Calvinists which came first, God's eternal decree or God's omniscience? I'm still waiting.

I answered you, i' not sure on which thread, but I did. I told you that most Calvinists root God's knowledge in His decree of something. Thus the two (his knowledge and his decree) are one and the same.

The only reason he "knows" the future is because He is in control of it. (ie, has decretive authority over it). It's not as if the future exists outside of God and God is an outside peering into it to see what will happen.

 

[elman]

Yeah, that's a hard line Calvinist. Note the double-predestination. Most that I know are single-predestination believers.

But even then, I don't believe that the fallen have fallen AGAINST God's will, because I believe that God's will is always done. You just need to define WILL, which is where we get into the permissive will vs decretive will debate.

Do you believe that the fall was in opposition to God's will and that Christ was God's plan B for salvation?

It is not God's will that we sin or fall or die for our sins.
Ezekiel 18:32 "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!"

 

[elman]

I answered you, i' not sure on which thread, but I did. I told you that most Calvinists root God's knowledge in His decree of something. Thus the two (his knowledge and his decree) are one and the same.

The only reason he "knows" the future is because He is in control of it. (ie, has decretive authority over it). It's not as if the future exists outside of God and God is an outside peering into it to see what will happen.

God does not know I am going to sin because God is going to control me and make me sin. God is good.

 

[cygnusx1]

I have asked Calvinists which came first, God's eternal decree or God's omniscience? I'm still waiting.

I don't believe God is ever surprised or absent from governing everything

 

[SeraphimsCherub]

God does not know I am going to sin because God is going to control me and make me sin. God is good.

WoW...that's quite an amazing statement coming from a creature that GOD has made from the dust of the ground...no offence...just saying.

Isa 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me:{pay attention, think about what GOD'S ALMIGHTY WORD say's}
Isa 45:6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else.{If HE IS and there is NO OTHER,concerning HIS WILL,and WHAT HE DOES,and WHAT HE IS GOING TO DO WITH "HIS" creation.There goes any thought of your own straight out the window.}
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

"God does not know " ok lets see how this statement stands with this TESTIMONY from the very one who had great sin throughout his life. Yet GOD KNEW his heart,and declared a HIM man after HIS{GOD'S} HEART!

Psa 139:2 Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off.
Psa 139:3 Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways.
Psa 139:4 For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether.
Mat_9:4 And Jesus knowing their thoughts said, Wherefore think ye evil in your hearts? { LoL...LORD...what are these cat's thinking? YOU ARE AN AWSOME "GOD"}
Luk_6:8 But he knew their thoughts, and said to the man which had the withered hand, Rise up, and stand forth in the midst. And he arose and stood forth.
Psa 139:5 Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me.
Psa 139:6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
Psa 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
Psa 139:8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psa 139:9 If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea;
Psa 139:10 Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me.

Here's GOD,and here's freewill:

GODGODGODGOD
GODGOD freewill GODGOD
GODGODGODGOD

Blessings...
SC

 

[JackSparrow]

Yeah, that's a hard line Calvinist. Note the double-predestination. Most that I know are single-predestination believers.

Hard line ? Most confessions and also Dortd quote or paraphrase Calvin. It was Beza who was the hard line Calvinist.

But even then, I don't believe that the fallen have fallen AGAINST God's will, because I believe that God's will is always done. You just need to define WILL, which is where we get into the permissive will vs decretive will debate.

Please elucidate the differences between permissive will vs decretive will.

Do you believe that the fall was in opposition to God's will and that Christ was God's plan B for salvation?

Plan B is a straw man.

Genesis leaves a lot unsaid. Hence I think it best NOT to be too dogmatic apart from remembering that God is not the author of sin.
But then we have been here before.