What exactly is the law?

[Shimshon]

To apply the verses you quote and apply in the manner you do violates the OT Scripture as well as the NT Scripture.


bugkiller

I don't know. I agree with the quote you posted from him.

Especially this:

man doesn't need to fulfill the law in order to be at one with God, rather man must first of all be at one with God in order to fulfill His law.

The message was unity with God. The commands were from Yeshua, and they commanded all come to Yeshua to get to the Father. Yeshua was the example. The Father living through Him, and Yeshua living through us. All perfectly one.

This is why the Torah observant are so clueless. Because they keep screaming how we need to know God through the Law, and there is no other way to know God than through the given Law of Moses. And when they do this they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have not the Spirit of God dwelling 'within' them. Leading them into all truth. They reject this 'source' of divinity and act as if we won't understand or know God till we read and observe the Torah.

We have God living in us, now. Leading us into all His ways. When we are one with God through Yeshua, we fulfill the law. Not the other way around. We don't observe the law, thus becoming one with God.

 

[Sophrosyne]

No thanks. I cant remember the last time you posted a scripture. Many opinions...no scripture. I prefer scripture over opinion.

I can give my opinion without posting scripture because I know that you have already seen the scriptures backing up my opinion and have either decided that they are irrelevant or that they don't mean what I say they mean. I don't have to pad my posts with a bunch of the SAME out of context scriptures over and over again to get my point... I get to the point without them.

 

[WailingWall]

I can give my opinion without posting scripture because I know that you have already seen the scriptures backing up my opinion and have either decided that they are irrelevant or that they don't mean what I say they mean. I don't have to pad my posts with a bunch of the SAME out of context scriptures over and over again to get my point... I get to the point without them.

OK Sophrosyne, ill try it your way. So, You claim there is no law to follow. The Word says sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore you are without sin. You cannot sin. So....you must not need the blood of Christ to wash away your sin as you claim you cannot sin.

 

[bugkiller]

Uhhh....read scriptures below











1 JOHN 3 [23] And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. [24] And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

So you have a problem with the pronouns. How does this passage relate to John 15:10? The passage you quote says -

• to believe in and on Jesus
• love one another (new commandment issued by Jesus)
• Do what Jesus told us to do

Your tryin to tell me we need not keep Gods 10 commandments because we are givin new testament commandments that we are now to follow. In 1John3 we find one of those new testament commandments. It tells us we are to love one another. Does the new testament tell us how we are to love one another?

1JOHN 5 [2] By this WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For THIS IS THE LOVE OF GOD, THAT WE KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS: and his commandments are not grievous.

Pretty much the same comments above apply exactly the same for this passage.

2JOHN1 [5] And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that WE LOVE ONE ANOTHER.[6] And THIS IS LOVE, THAT WE WALK AFTER HIS COMMANDMENTS. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.

I would qualify this passage in relationship with John's over all writing and message. John is talking about the commandments of Jesus, his Master and not the law: keeping John 1:17 and 15:10 in mind.

JAMES 2 [8] If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, THOU SHALT LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THYSELF, ye do well: [9] But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.[10] For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.[11] For he that said, DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, said also, DO NOT KILL. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

This is a discussion of James about Christian behaviour and not the law as the rest of the chapter indicates.

ROMANS 13 [8] Owe no man any thing, but to LOVE ONE ANOTHER: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.[9] For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, THOU SHALT NOT STEAL, Thou shalt not bear false witness, THOU SHALT NOT COVET; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.[10] Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Is this showing obligation to the law or is it also meeting the requirements of the law as incidental? I do not think Paul is saying we are obligated to the law when he says very clearly we are delivered from the law in 7:6. Paul also says to throw out the law in Gal 4:30.

I decided to show the scripture of James 2 and Romans 13 which explain to us how we are to show our love for one another because im sure ill hear next that it is not the 10 commandments being mentioned. But as you can see in these scriptures, adultry killing, stealing, bearing false witness, covetness are mentioned. And i suppose i will hear you say that since the “keeping of the sabbath” is not mentioned or “thou shalt have no other gods before me" is not mentioned these commandments can be ignored. YIKES

Mentioned is not the same as obligation to, ever. Paul is not giving or setting requirements for the Christian to observe the law.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

OK Sophrosyne, ill try it your way. So, You claim there is no law to follow. The Word says sin is the transgression of the law. Therefore you are without sin. You cannot sin. So....you must not need the blood of Christ to wash away your sin as you claim you cannot sin.

I never said there was no Law to follow, I claim that Christians are not obligated to follow the Law. It is like having two nations with differing laws if you are a citizen of one nation the other nations laws don't apply to you even if they are the same they have no jurisdiction over you they are NOT your Laws to keep. It is possible for sins that the Law equates to be valid sins for a Christian IF they are mentioned in the New Testament as applying to CHRISTIANS but the onus here is the Law is NOT applied generically to Christians there is NO proof of such therefore one cannot use the Law as a yardstick to measure sin for Christians you have to use the New Testament instead of the Old Testament Sinai covenant rules.

 

[bugkiller]

I forgot to mention... how does one "practice" righteousness?
The only way I can think of is BY FAITH.

I do not practice righteousness to posess it. I am righteous by declaration and my nature has changed (born again - John 3 and illustrated in Rom 6) leaving me no desire to do evil (sin).

bugkiller

 

[WailingWall]

This is why the Torah observant are so clueless. Because they keep screaming how we need to know God through the Law, and there is no other way to know God than through the given Law of Moses. And when they do this they prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that they have not the Spirit of God dwelling 'within' them. Leading them into all truth.

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

In this new covenant scripture you will find out how to recieve the Holy Spirit. Read it and weep

 

[Shimshon]

I would qualify this passage in relationship with John's over all writing and message. John is talking about the commandments of Jesus, his Master and not the law: keeping John 1:17 and 15:10 in mind. This is a discussion of James about Christian

One should start to see that the commandments mentioned in John at the last Passover (John 13-17) are closely associated with being One with God through Yeshua through Faith. Not the Law of Moses. Every time He uses the term commandments He starts to mention the union between the Father and He and those who believe the words He was speaking. You would think there would be just one mention of the Law of Moses when He refers to ‘my Commandments’, but that never appears.

 

[bugkiller]

1 JOHN 5 [1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2] BY THIS WE KNOW THAT WE LOVE THE CHILDREN OF GOD, WHEN WE LOVE GOD, AND KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

I guess i dont understand your meaning of the word "relationship"

And the Scripture.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Here we go with the word games again... there are only two commandments John talks about Love God and love your neighbor. Love is easily a part of any close relationship but you want to demand rules and regulations in a relationship which isn't normally valid unless we have a master/slave or employer/employee type relationship.

bugkiller

 

[Shimshon]

In this new covenant scripture you will find out how to recieve the Holy Spirit. Read it and weep

Since I don't hold the same twist and out of context understanding as you have cobbled together, it does not affect me in the least, as you seem to so desire it to.

Your not preaching the Word of God at all. Why would I fear what 'you' are saying?

AND, conversly, if I do not preach the Word God gave Yeshua, why would it matter to you at all? If you believe you have the truth, stand on it. And let God judge you in the end.

You ignore so much of what Yeshua says, it's impossible to take you seriously at all.

 

[WailingWall]

I never said there was no Law to follow,

Its one or the other. Are you to follow the law or was it nailed to the cross

 

[bugkiller]

Nah {opinion}. We all sin and sin is the transgression of the law. If we do not OBSERVE to keep the 10, thats a whole new story.

PROVERBS 28 [4] They that forsake the law praise the wicked: but such as keep the law contend with them. [7] Whoso keepeth the law is a wise son: but he that is a companion of riotous men shameth his father. [9] HE THAT TURNETH AWAY HIS EAR FROM HEARING THE LAW, EVEN HIS PRAYER SHALL BE ABOMINATION. [13] He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. [18] WHOSO WALKETH UPRIGHTLY SHALL BE SAVED

No, no read the other half of the verse ...trangresseth also the law ... The word also has never meant only.

You do not take into consideration Jer 31 or Jesus' words found in 3 Gospels Mt 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.

bugkiller

 

[Sophrosyne]

Its one or the other. Are you to follow the law or was it nailed to the cross

It was nailed to the cross for those who accept the cross (Christians). If you don't accept the cross you are more than welcome to follow the Law as most Jews don't accept the cross do. Paul says the Law is OPTIONAL in that he says people can observe what Sabbath(s) they wish to and eat what meats they want to.

 

[WailingWall]

Since I don't hold the same twist and out of context understanding as you have cobbled together, it does not affect me in the least, as you seem to so desire it to.

Your not preaching the Word of God at all. Why would I fear what 'you' are saying?

AND, conversly, if I do not preach the Word God gave Yeshua, why would it matter to you at all? If you believe you have the truth, stand on it. And let God judge you in the end.

You ignore so much of what Yeshua says, it's impossible to take you seriously at all.

Ok. Im all ears

JOHN 14 [15] If ye love me, KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.[16] AND I WILL PRAY THE FATHER, AND HE SHALL GIVE YOU ANOTHER COMFORTER, that he may abide with you for ever;[17] Even THE SPIRIT OF TRUTH; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.[18] I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.[19] Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.[20] At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.[21] HE THAT HATH MY COMMANDMENTS, AND KEEPETH THEM, HE IT IS THAT LOVETH ME: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I WILL LOVE HIM, AND WILL MANIFEST MYSELF TO HIM.

This is the only scripture i "cobbled together" in replying to your post. Could you tell me why it doesnt really mean what it says?

 

[WailingWall]

No, no read the other half of the verse ...trangresseth also the law ... The word also has never meant only.

You do not take into consideration Jer 31 or Jesus' words found in 3 Gospels Mt 26:28, MK 14:24 and LK 22:20.

bugkiller

Jer.31? What you talkin bout

 

[bugkiller]

Of course.

Then grace does not affect one's relationship with God and there is no salvation. Eph 2:8-9, Gal 5:4

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Gal 5:19-5-23

Why does Paul tell us there is no law against the fruits of the Spirit? Because there is law against the works of the flesh.

Then the fruits of the Spirit can not manifest in the flesh.

14 “Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. 15 Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood. Rev 22:14-15

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6:9-10

The law can’t make us just, but it still gives us a good idea of what a just man-the man who loves via abiding in the Spirit- would do or not do.

Tell ya what. You take your wages and I will donate mine to you and accept the free gift God gave me. Deal?

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

unsupported speculation-unless you care to elaborate

Happy to support my statement with Scripture. Ps 14:3, 53:3 and Rom 3:23

bugkiller

 

[WailingWall]

Your not preaching the Word of God at all. Why would I fear what 'you' are saying?

Dont fear me


LUKE 12 [4] And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. [5] But I will forewarn you whom ye shall fear: Fear him, which after he hath killed hath power to cast into hell; yea, I say unto you, FEAR HIM.

fear HIM

DEUT. 6 [1] Now THESE ARE THE COMMANDMENTS, the statutes, and the judgments, which the Lord your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it: [2] THAT THOU MIGHTEST FEAR THE LORD THY GOD, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee, thou, and thy son, and thy son's son, all the days of thy life; and that thy days may be prolonged.

PSALM 111 [10] The FEAR OF THE LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding HAVE ALL THEY THAT DO HIS COMMANDMENTS: his praise endureth for ever.

PROVERBS 1 [7] THE FEAR OF THE LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction. [8] My son, hear the instruction of thy father, and FORSAKE NOT THE LAW of thy mother:[9] For they shall be an ornament of GRACE unto thy head, and chains about thy neck.

Heres a great scripture. Forsake not the law. Fear the Lord, get wisdom and receive His grace.

 

[Shimshon]

Could you tell me why it doesnt really mean what it says?

You've been told over a thousand times, i'm sure. Why would you listen to anyone now? Go, observe, be..... It's between you and God. So, STOP making about you and me. Your mind is made, and i'm not into arguing in circles about the 'plain' meaning of words. It's worthless. I might as well claim God has a body because he wrote the commandments with his finger. And we can go round and round the burning bush all day and night arguing about it. I shove the scripture infront of you saying

"And he gave to Moses, when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God."

And claim if you don't believe that God has a body you don't know God at all, because you think He's only a Spirit. But scripture proves he has a body, outside the incarnate body of Yeshua.

How foolish, no? Yes!

But this is what you do. "If you love me you will keep my commandments" SEE Yeshua said to keep the law!!! OY VEY!

You know, I have blog post upon blog post discussing this very thing (If you love me, keep my commandments). But I have no presumption that you would even give an ear to what i've discussed. So why would I go through it here with you now?