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What does it mean for God to "exist"?

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Michael

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Those are not supernatural entities,

Yes they are. You can't name a single source of inflation, dark energy or dark matter, and none of them show up in the lab. SUSY theory was all but falsified outright, and you can't create any dark energy or dark matter or inflation in a lab.

no matter how hard you try to pretend they are.

No matter how much you *wish* your impotent sky deities have some real or tangible effect on photons, you cannot and have not demonstrated your claims.

They are quantifiable and detectable through empirical means.

False. Only photon redshift can be detected via empirical means, and it always involves inelastic scattering and/or the movement of *objects*, not the expansion of space or any of your invisible stuff.

Then we are not talking about the same thing. The Sun does not determine the math equations for the photons and energetic particles that it sends hurling towards the Earth.

What does?

Please show that they are a part of God.

I spend two threads doing that for you.
 
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Loudmouth

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Yes they are. You can't name a single source of inflation, dark energy or dark matter, and none of them show up in the lab.

They show up in labs that have telescopes.

False. Only photon redshift can be detected via empirical means, and it always involves inelastic scattering and/or the movement of *objects*, not the expansion of space or any of your invisible stuff.

And more of the same from the one trick pony. This is discussed at length in the other thread. I see that you are still avoiding the falsifications of plasma redshift.

What does?

The laws of physics that determines what the Sun does.

I spend two threads doing that for you.

And you failed spectacularly, as anyone can read for themselves.
 
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Asvin

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I think for sometimes to 'exist' it must have some kind of effect on reality. If the thing doesn't have any perceivable presence in the universe then it is indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.

An example would be a god. Does this god thing answer prayer? cause disasters? cure diseases? perform miracles? Does it have any effect on this universe? if not then you must say it does not exist.

So far no supernatural entity has had any measurable effect on reality so we hold the position that none exists until proven otherwise.

What do you mean by "perceivable presence"?
 
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Asvin

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Well then, suns, galaxies and whatnot are not simply a concept of awareness. A sun is as "real" as anything else on your list.



Gee, thanks. :)



I am a "Christian" because Jesus is my Lord, and my personal savior (from selfishness). I honor and respect his teachings. In fact Jesus himself explained that the Kingdom of Heaven is *within* us, and that we are all one *in* God. There is nothing "blasphemous" about it.

If you cut me open, can you find the "Kindom of Heaven" in me?

Didn't you mention in your god theory thread that the universe never began to exist and will never cease to exist? Doesn't that blatantly contradict the first verse of your holy book?
 
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AV1611VET

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If you cut me open, can you find the "Kindom of Heaven" in me?
No, you're an atheist.

But for the record, only God can do that kind of surgery.

2 Timothy 2:19a Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his.
 
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AV1611VET

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Great response, AV! Although Asvin has changed his faith icon many times. Maybe God doesn't consider him an atheist? 20 is a good age to be exploring convictions :study:
Excellent point! I concur!
 
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AV1611VET

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Maybe god doesn't consider you a christian either.
Maybe we believe in what's called eternal security?

In other words, if you truly got saved at one time (which I hope is the case), then in God's eyes, you're what we call a "backslider."
 
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Asvin

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Maybe we believe in what's called eternal security?

In other words, if you truly got saved at one time (which I hope is the case), then in God's eyes, you're what we call a "backslider."

And if you never actually got "saved" and keep thinking and asserting that you did, you are what we call a mistaken human being! :)
 
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Michael

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They show up in labs that have telescopes.

Nope. Only photon redshift shows up in telescopes. You simply *imagine* some connection between that redshift and your invisible friends.

And more of the same from the one trick pony. This is discussed at length in the other thread. I see that you are still avoiding the falsifications of plasma redshift.
It's discussed on both the empirical theory of God threads too. The point is that *your personal acts of faith* are actually far *greater* than mine, since your sky deities are invisible and they have no effect on Earth, whereas God is not invisible, and *does* have an effect on Earth, particularly humans.

The laws of physics that determines what the Sun does.
God wrote those laws!

And you failed spectacularly, as anyone can read for themselves.
I failed at nothing as anyone can read for themselves.
 
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Michael

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If you cut me open, can you find the "Kindom of Heaven" in me?

Technically, at the level of empirical physics, the answer is actually "yes" if we're simply measuring the energy of God that constantly flows through your body on a daily basis. Neutrinos for instance pass through our bodies by the billions on a moment to moment basis. There is nowhere in the universe where that constant and sustaining flow of energy doesn't exist.

Didn't you mention in your god theory thread that the universe never began to exist and will never cease to exist? Doesn't that blatantly contradict the first verse of your holy book?

Not the way I see it. God's awareness and power are eternal properties of this universe, whereas the physical structures of the universe change over time. God's awareness came first and it never changes. The arrangement of matter in our region of spacetime changes over time, just like the cells in our bodies change over time. Those small cellular changes we go through typically have little or no influence on "awareness".
 
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Loudmouth

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Nope. Only photon redshift shows up in telescopes. You simply *imagine* some connection between that redshift and your invisible friends.

I have photons shifted by an expanding universe.

It's discussed on both the empirical theory of God threads too. The point is that *your personal acts of faith* are actually far *greater* than mine,

The famous tu quoque fallacy once again. I see a Sun. Just a sun. You are telling me that it takes more faith to say that there is a Sun in the sky than to say that the Sun in the sky is a god. Really?

since your sky deities are invisible and they have no effect on Earth, whereas God is not invisible, and *does* have an effect on Earth, particularly humans.

They aren't invisible, as has already been shown. Expansion redshifts photons that hit the Earth.

God wrote those laws!

Evidence please.

I failed at nothing as anyone can read for themselves.

Let's see . . . you use faith as a derisive term . . . you continually use a tu quoque fallacy to hide your lack of evidence for you claims . . . yeah, pretty much a failure.
 
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Michael

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I have photons shifted by an expanding universe.

You just have redshifted photons. Your *faith* in an expanding universe is a pure act of faith in your own *interpretation* of the actual cause of that redshift.

The famous tu quoque fallacy once again. I see a Sun. Just a sun.
No, you see a "sun" with a whole ton of baggage about it's presumed composition, it's "functions", etc. You conceptualize a whole *theory* about that sun. You seem to resent it when I point out where empirical physics ends, and your faith in invisible friends begin. Why? Science isn't supposed to require acts of pure faith, whereas religion is supposed to require such an act of faith. They should *NOT* be exactly the same! In your case they are *exactly* the same. Without any justification as to cause, you simply point at the sky and claim. "My trilogy of invisible friends did it"!

You are telling me that it takes more faith to say that there is a Sun in the sky than to say that the Sun in the sky is a god. Really?
No, that's your own strawman. I never suggested that individual suns are "gods" to start with, that's your strawman. I was also discussing *cosmology*, not solar physics. I suppose that was your way of running from the fact that your cosmology beliefs require no less than three pure "acts of faith" in metaphysical (supernatural) entities whereas mine requires no such acts of faith. Even awareness shows up in a variety of lifeforms on Earth and "God" is not invisible or impotent on Earth like your invisible friends.

They aren't invisible, as has already been shown. Expansion redshifts photons that hit the Earth.
They are invisible which is why they are "dark" to begin with! That's one of the *attributes* you gave it! Since you cannot show that dark stuff even actually exists, let alone have any effect on a photon, you have no "evidence" at all that your invisible friends are the actual *cause* of redshift.

Let's see . . . you use faith as a derisive term . . .
It's only derisive to you because you're an atheist. "Faith" isn't a dirty word to me, I just don't think it should be required in "science".

you continually use a tu quoque fallacy to hide your lack of evidence for you claims
If I actually believed that faith was a derisive term, it might be a fallacy. Since I do not, it's not. I'm simply pointing out to you that your faith in invisible forms of matter and energy are more of an act of faith than I have in "God". I can "see" the God I believe in, and I can *personally experience* God on a daily basis.

. . . yeah, pretty much a failure.
Inflation failed to predict the non homogenous nature of our universe. "Dark matter" bit the dust at LHC and you can't even name a source of "dark energy". Yep, pretty much an *EPIC* failure.
 
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Loudmouth

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You just have redshifted photons.

Don't forget the cosmic microwave background.

Your *faith* in an expanding universe is a pure act of faith in your own *interpretation* of the actual cause of that redshift.

It is not my own interpretation. It is the overwhelming consensus opinion of the vast majority of physicists and astronomers over the last 60 years. No faith is needed. I have the evidence.

No, you see a "sun" with a whole ton of baggage about it's presumed composition, it's "functions", etc. You conceptualize a whole *theory* about that sun. You seem to resent it when I point out where empirical physics ends, and your faith in invisible friends begin. Why? Science isn't supposed to require acts of pure faith, whereas religion is supposed to require such an act of faith. They should *NOT* be exactly the same! In your case they are *exactly* the same. Without any justification as to cause, you simply point at the sky and claim. "My trilogy of invisible friends did it"!

Hehehe, this is getting funny.

Seriously, do you read your own posts? Do you understand just how crazy they sound? The sun is the sun. It is a glowing mass of gas. How you go from glowing gas to God is beyond me, and posts like this one is not convincing anyone.

No, that's your own strawman. I never suggested that individual suns are "gods" to start with, that's your strawman. I was also discussing *cosmology*, not solar physics. I suppose that was your way of running from the fact that your cosmology beliefs require no less than three pure "acts of faith" in metaphysical (supernatural) entities whereas mine requires no such acts of faith. Even awareness shows up in a variety of lifeforms on Earth and "God" is not invisible or impotent on Earth like your invisible friends.

I see a rock. You claim that the rock is God. You want to argue that I am the one who requires the most faith? Really?

They are invisible which is why they are "dark" to begin with! That's one of the *attributes* you gave it! Since you cannot show that dark stuff even actually exists, let alone have any effect on a photon, you have no "evidence" at all that your invisible friends are the actual *cause* of redshift.

They are no more invisible than gravity.

It's only derisive to you because you're an atheist. "Faith" isn't a dirty word to me, I just don't think it should be required in "science".

You use it as an insult. Your posts are dripping with it.

Inflation failed to predict the non homogenous nature of our universe.

Evidence please.

"Dark matter" bit the dust at LHC and you can't even name a source of "dark energy". Yep, pretty much an *EPIC* failure.

Except that dark matter has been observed:

August 21, 2006 - Dark Matter Observed: Most Direct Measurement of Dark Matter Allows Study of its Nature - Press Release
 
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