Who is a Jew? From our older son....

[Gxg (G²)]

That's comparing apples to oranges.

Not really, seeing that it was an issue OFTEN debated within Judaism when it came to the subject of why it seemed that the women were allowed to keep their land instead of another man taking it. The issue of determining identity by males was not only in children - but connected to the larger culture of Patriarchical societies.

Their father died. They received the land because of patrilineal anyway. Who else was going to get that land

Didn't matter if he had sons - but that was the CENTRAL issue, as he had none and it was debated as to whether or not they could keep it as females/determine the line of succession.

 

[Qnts2]

Did Boaz recognize Ruth as being Jewish? She was still considered a Moabite even though she believed in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Or did Boaz recognize Ruth as being a believer in the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob even though she was a Moabite?

Not so cut and dry.

And you and I agree that Jewishness is based on lineage, so how does Ruth come to play in 'who is a Jew?' Boaz>Yeshua being from Judah. In this case tribal indentity comes from the father. However in this case with Ruth it's not so cut and dry is it? I think there's more validity with patrilineal descendant than matrilineal. And I'm wondering why now? Our son is makin me think.

In scripture, the first generation convert is referred to by the people they came from.

Boaz did recognize Ruth as Jewish, or Boaz would not have been the kinsman redeemer, as that law only applies to the Jewish people.

I lean towards matrilineal descent as I can see scriptural arguments for this.

 

[macher]

In scripture, the first generation convert is referred to by the people they came from.

Boaz did recognize Ruth as Jewish, or Boaz would not have been the kinsman redeemer, as that law only applies to the Jewish people.

I lean towards matrilineal descent as I can see scriptural arguments for this.

We don't know how Boaz recognized Ruth. All we know is that scripture says Ruth the Moabite, Naomi is Ruth's Jewish mother in law and Ruth was a believer in the God of Israel. And Ruth was a widow of the 'clan' if you will.

Why can't this also be applied to what you commented about a Jewish man marrying a non Jewish woman who is a BELIEVER in the God of Israel?

I lean on matrilineal but I lean on patrilineal just as much.

In other words Ruth couldn't change her ethnicity/ lineage. Boaz was ethnically Jewish. Being ethnically Jewish is how you are born, correct?

 

[Yahudim]

I'm pretty sure that the change from patriarchal to matriarchal descendance came on the heels of the Babylonian diaspora. Because of the pagan practices of the gentile wives of the Jews returning from captivity, they were ordered to put away their wives and their children. That is the first place in scripture where descendance was determined by the mother of a child instead of the father. Inheritance and descendance are two separate issues.

Matriarchal descendance then became a tradition because Jewish men, devoid of Torah instruction and an observant upbringing will mate with a knot-hole given the opportunity. It is well established in Jewish humor that the number one threat to the assimilation of Jewish communities is posed by its proximity to statuesque blond pole dancers.

 

[macher]

I'm pretty sure that the change from patriarchal to matriarchal descendance came on the heels of the Babylonian diaspora. Because of the pagan practices of the gentile wives of the Jews returning from captivity, they were ordered to put away their wives and their children. That is the first place in scripture where descendance was determined by the mother of a child instead of the father. Inheritance and descendance are two separate issues.

Matriarchal descendance then became a tradition because Jewish men, devoid of Torah instruction and an observant upbringing will mate with a knot-hole given the opportunity. It is well established in Jewish humor that the number one threat to the assimilation of Jewish communities is posed by its proximity to statuesque blond pole dancers.

Yea but does Torah observance or no Torah observance determine if you're a Jew in the flesh or not?

 

[Yahudim]

Yea but does Torah observance or no Torah observance determine if you're a Jew in the flesh or not?

I think we are supposed to be citizens of Israel in the flesh and citizens of the Kingdom of God in the spirit. Properly applied, Torah observance is requisite of both. If in that day that He returns, He claims me as brother and co-heir, I wouldn't want to be the person that attempted to deny me citizenship in either.

 

[visionary]

I think we are supposed to be citizens of Israel in the flesh and citizens of the Kingdom of God in the spirit. Properly applied, Torah observance is requisite of both. If in that day that He returns, He claims me as brother and co-heir, I wouldn't want to be the person that attempted to deny me citizenship in either.

Nor would you want to be considered "least" in the Kingdom of God.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yea but does Torah observance or no Torah observance determine if you're a Jew in the flesh or not?

In the ethnic sense or the spiritual sense? For it'd seem that one never stops being Ethnic Israel if they're descended from it - no more than a Hispanic can stop having Hispanic Blood. But living out Hispanic culture would be another thing entirely.

 

[macher]

In the ethnic sense or the spiritual sense? For it'd seem that one never stops being Ethnic Israel if they're descended from it - no more than a Hispanic can stop having Hispanic Blood. But living out Hispanic culture would be another thing entirely.

Right I agree and don't agree with talmidin. Being Jewish is apart from the Torah commandments as per Gen 17.

 

[Yahudim]

Right I agree and don't agree with talmidin. Being Jewish is apart from the Torah commandments as per Gen 17.

So, no adoption under the covenant?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Right I agree and don't agree with talmidin. Being Jewish is apart from the Torah commandments as per Gen 17.

It's a calling that one can never escape from - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable ( Romans 11:28-30 / Romans 11 ). One may choose to not live as a Hebrew - but the Lord still holds them to account since the deal was made with the patriarchs and all descendants are connected to it on the basis of promise - although others can choose not to walk in it/harm themselves.

 

[macher]

So, no adoption under the covenant?

The topic is about who is a Jew. Jewish parents circumcise their males on the 8th day, the Abrahamic covenant. A Jew is a descendant of Israel.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We don't know how Boaz recognized Ruth. All we know is that scripture says Ruth the Moabite, Naomi is Ruth's Jewish mother in law and Ruth was a believer in the God of Israel. And Ruth was a widow of the 'clan' if you will.

Why can't this also be applied to what you commented about a Jewish man marrying a non Jewish woman who is a BELIEVER in the God of Israel?

I lean on matrilineal but I lean on patrilineal just as much.

In other words Ruth couldn't change her ethnicity/ lineage. Boaz was ethnically Jewish.

Good analysis.

 

[Yahudim]

The topic is about who is a Jew. Jewish parents circumcise their males on the 8th day, the Abrahamic covenant. A Jew is a descendant of Israel.

Sorry. I was under the impression that there were a number of ways of becoming a Jew. I did not realize that the discussion had been limited to genetics. I misunderstood the Op. Forgive me.

 

[macher]

Sorry. I was under the impression that there were a number of ways of becoming a Jew. I did not realize that the discussion had been limited to genetics. I misunderstood the Op. Forgive me.

Well technically a Jew is a descendant of Israel.

 

[Lulav]

Sorry. I was under the impression that there were a number of ways of becoming a Jew. I did not realize that the discussion had been limited to genetics. I misunderstood the Op. Forgive me.

Yes, I apparently wasn't keeping properly to the OP so I will bow out as well.

 

[mishkan]

The book of Ruth shows every bit what it is to be a convert.

Except for one thing. No beit din. That's always been the stickler for Messianic Gentiles wanting to take the step of declaring themselves irrevocably part of the Jewish community.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Jewish parents circumcise their males on the 8th day, the Abrahamic covenant. A Jew is a descendant of Israel.

Indeed.

 

[macher]

Except for one thing. No beit din. That's always been the stickler for Messianic Gentiles wanting to take the step of declaring themselves irrevocably part of the Jewish community.

How would a Messianic Beit Din differ from what's present in the 'traditional' Jewish community?

In the case of Ruth scripture doesn't teach if she went through the likes of a Beit Din. All we know from scripture is scripture still describes Ruth as a Moabite even though she was a widow to a Jewish husband and her mother in law was Jewish. And we know from scripture that in the Torah it says 'put away the gentile wives' in context it means because they corrupted the husbands by idol worship etc but scripture doesn't say to put away those that are believers in the God of Israel, just like the Peter/Cornelius incident.

Your comment sort of has to do with my topic. I'm not disagreeing with the rabbi's on matrilineal but what I see lacking is addressing patrillineal.

In Ruth case is it assumed she is an Israelite? We know Boaz is. And we know David is.

BTW I asked this question at the Lubavith House on campus but I presented the question in a different light.

 

[pat34lee]

Except for one thing. No beit din. That's always been the stickler for Messianic Gentiles wanting to take the step of declaring themselves irrevocably part of the Jewish community.

That is not the way it was originally though, is it? All one had to do according to Torah is be willing to follow YHWH, join with the people of Israel, learn and follow the Torah and if a male, be circumcised. Like salvation through Yeshua, it was not meant to be a hard thing to do.