Messianic Judaism?

[visionary]

So what's your point? As noted there were Jewish believers who still 'practiced' Judaism.

I'm a Jewish believer and still practice Judaism as well as other Jewish believers.

 

[Tishri1]

You might be with your relative hunting but when you get back know that touched my heart!

It's true about not really knowing folks only based on what they say here

I have met some of you and we all are quite different in person aren't we? We should try skyping sometime

Hi Tishri,

Time to confess. Recently, I did something regrettable. I purposely provoked someone to anger. It happened to one of the members of CF, but not here at CF. It was on a different site. The person in question enjoys a good reputation here, but a few things made me suspicious. I did it because I was sure that the person in question was not being completely honest or sincere. I wasn't disappointed. It turns out that I was right. In their anger, they let their true colors show.

There was some serious accusations made in both directions. There was some name calling. There was some declaration that I found to be most informative. In the end, the person in question declared I was wrong for saying what I did about them and demanded I repent. I said that if I was wrong, that I would be the first to repent and ask them to repeat a positive statement about Torah observance as proof I was wrong. It didn't happen - over there. But it happened over here Tishri, after it was clear which way you were leaning. They declared for Torah observance after innumerable posts in support and agreement with one of the most outspoken critics of Torah observance in this place.

During their rant, I learned that the person is a professional Torah teacher. That means they get paid! Whoo hoo! And they have been Torah observant since childhood. And they have people! I was also informed that they know more Torah than we do. But they would not teach Torah here. They told me to Google rotary engine. Evidently I remind them of something similar to a Wankel (Thanks, I like the pun even if not the implications). BTW, I learned that I get my doctrine from Google and my name is Gomer Pyle too. I'll just add that name to my list of homonyms.

I learned that I was probably laughing uncontrollably in the aisles of a Pentecostal church while this person was learning and observing Torah. I learned that I was a bully on a soapbox and any number of other things not worthy of mentioning. I learned that being goy, I could never rise to the level of understanding that this person has (or their people) and should not even try. Not very surprising.

I thought that I might take a break and do something quite different for a while. So I went to visit my Uncle. He wants me to go with him to his place, his ranch, deep in the East Texas Piney Woods. I agreed. Since he fell a few years back and broke his leg, he will no longer go alone. Can't blame him. He almost lost his favorite boots to the doctor's scissors.

It is also the last week of the normal whitetail hunting season and he hoped to put one or two of Bambi's relatives in the freezer for the year to come. No matter who harvested a deer, we agreed to share. We always do.

We talked and laughed and reminisced about the year past. We meditated on those friends and relations that had passed with the year and on what eventualities the next year might bring. We planned in general detail, the next few days of camping, hunting and manly fellowship then broke for the evening. We meet early in the morning to pack the truck and strike out for a less urban and hopefully less civilized and less structured few days at Deer Camp. I can't sleep for my excitement at the prospect of being in the country. I'll be back for Shabbat, though I will probably observe it wrong. Pray for me. I may be on the floor, laughing uncontrollably, before it is all over.

No matter what the events of the next few days here at CF, I will be absent. I'm sure some will celebrate the loss. So I will rely on my Torah observant brothers and sisters to press the case for a permanent injunction on the teaching of Torah non-observance in any form. I can go to literally thousands of websites that teach non-observance and the entire spectrum of denominational and faith group fora at CF for that. Alas, the one forum that claims Torah observance in it's SOP, the Messianic Judaism faith group here at CF, after years of wrangling, struggling, fighting and voting - still allows for the teaching of non-observance. We need to see this actually end. Not theoretically end. Not agree that it should end. But take concrete action to make sure that it ends and does not come back by fractions and degrees. If we want to discuss varieties of non-observance, it's not like there is a shortage of venues. Nor are there a shortage of wolves in sheep's clothing either.

Be well, be blessed and be proactive. Do not let this small but very vocal minority, steal the gains that we have made for Torah observance. Lives are at stake. Not the temporary life we lead prior to the great resurrection. But the life after we are risen. Do not let your family and friends hear the words, 'Depart from me, you workers of Torahlessness.'. Do not let them be cast into the outer darkness where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

BTW, I know these warnings to be true. They came from a Jewish Rabbi who was learning and observing Torah long before my first trip to St. Anne's, to Beth Israel, to Beth Yeshurun, to Zion Baptist or to West Bay Assembly. He's my teacher. I like Him very much. Maybe He can learn me to be better in this here Torah stuff.

Shazam!
Gomer

 

[macher]

Originally, as in what era?

Acts is pretty clear that many priests were believers.

It also clear that Joseph of Arimethea (probably a member of the Sanhedrin) was a believer.

I also believe that there is some evidence crypto-believers within rabbinic circles even since Yavneh.

I'm making a bold statement because I see this ALL the time with '2 House' believers. They are anti-semetic because they reject anything Jewish. That's why it's a dangerous theology. There's is an underlying anti-semetism that most aren't aware of to de-elevate the Jewish people. It's an always us against them.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If someone disagrees with Christian anti Torah teaching they should be able to voice it in their safe haven as long as the topic isn't off topic to that forums purpose

so folks may be in deep disagreement with mainstream Christianity on many topics and that is ok just that one cannot teach against the nicene creed hope that helps

Just as many other congregational forums are not in total agreement with each other so to MJ may not be in agreement with other teachings in Christianity that is ok but what I hear hurts is the belittling and flaming that often comes with these disagreements am I right?

Would you say that it is going too far when folks start to belittle anyone?

Hey Tish,

I definately feel that it's going too far when folks start belittling others - especially over observance. THere was one example I can recall when there was a discussion on Niddah/the laws of purity in Leviticus - as seen here. I was reminded of one lady sharing her heart and how she sought to live out what she felt the Mosaic Law called for when it came to saying you're "unclean" and having to seperate herself from the camp if having a period.

THe lady later realized that her heart to honor God's law was cool - but she herself later said that she discovered she could never really honor the Law as it was since it called for a Levitical Priest to examine/inspect - and was specifically related to what occurred within the Israelite land when camps were set up. She also noted to me directly that she realized that being Torah Observant/Loving TOrah didn't mean that you seek to live out everything you read about in the Mosaic Law since there was culture/context - and she was to consider the examples of the Apostles/Christ in what they lived out.

I stand in agreement with her/other Messianic Jews on the issue since honoring Torah means accurately addressing what was said in the TOrah and the commandments of Yeshia - and seeing how no one, regardless of how much talk goes on in the name of "Torah Observance", really walks out certain things in the Mosaic Law when they don't have certain things in place that were required to do so. Yet for voicing such, some may be prone to say "Well that's teaching non-observance of Torah!!!" simply because what's seen in some parts of the Mosaic code are not expressed as being necessary for today.

Where I and others come from is that being Torah Observant is based on that which the Lord called Jews and Gentiles to be Observant by EXACTLY as He said to be Observant. If saying a Gentile was expliclty said in the Mosaic Code to be excluded from the purity requirements of Hebrews, that is not Non-Observance in the name of Torah Observance since the Torah says that directly. Specifically when talking on the Covenant made for the Hebrew people and the sub-laws given to Gentiles, like giving unclean meat to Gentiles in the land while other Hebrews in the land were not allowed to eat it.

I definately feel that others should be able to voice disagreement over CHristian teaching that may be anti-Torah. An example being when others say that Torah has been done away with on all things and that others enjoying celebrating the Festivals/seeking to practice certain types of offerings like the believers did in the NT when it came to seeing them in light of CHrist - like Paul sacrificing according to Numbers 6 with the Nazarite Vow on 2 occassions and yet not doing so according to the Mosaic Law when it came to atonement for sin at the end of it (as that was handled in CHrist. Others have often said Jewish believers seeking to do as he did are "trying to be justified by law" - yet several have often spoken against it when noting their desire to live according to Torah and seeing what happened in Acts.

I've had several occassions of seeking to defend others here against other CHristians (notably from GT) who sought to condemn others in saying nothing from the Mosaic Law/Torah is to be continued by believers - be it here or elsewhere (seen here, here, here, here, here, and here). And other Messianic Jews have been in agreement when it comes to Torah Observance already being practiced in large degrees.

However, what a lot of people have voiced concern over is that many of those saying they're against mainstream CHristianity have also said things that do not line up with what Messianic Judaism says - and in the event Messianic Judaism indeed lines up directly with Mainstream CHristiantiy (especially on things like the Nicene Creed, for example), it is claimed by people that others are saying things that Messianic Jews do not accept - and that isn't accurate.

I know that you've said the fellowship you go to is associated with the UMJC - and that Messianic Jewish organization is in acceptance of CHristianity/connected to it and has noted multiple times where it's not Messianic Jewish to denoucne CHristianity as not loving Jewish people. They've also said it's wrong for Messianic Jews to claim that other Messianic Jews are wrong to identify as CHristians since that is a term early Jewish believers used of themselves. Others have often thrown the term "Non-Observant" at all who are Messianic and yet identify with Christians/the CHurch - as the "Bridge Builder" forum describes. That's inflamming.

It's also inflamming whenever others say that people do not love God's Torah simply because they also go to a Christian Church - and saying that all other believers in Churches only keep some of the Torah isn't something accurate of what others do.

 

[Tishri1]

Thanks my greatest concern though is one issue still on the table and that is of MJs who are not observant consistantly or at all in areas ,getting the whip for their choices....(belittling and flaming)

I know it's already been established that no one here is judging the level of observance to Torah , and all agree that the sop has good wording where that is concerned ... but for the non observant, sure they shouldn't teach that here , but will they get belittled and flamed and rebuked right and left thru harsh words out of the mouths of the rest it is known some don't observe at all? That is a real fear in here.

If we are serious about our sop saying that we will not judge then we need to start addressing that here as well

What should be the attitude toward folks with no observance ,who do not teach non observance, but are non observant in certain things?

How can we help ourselves to not disgrace them for say eating a ham sandwich?(as an example)

Ideas?

I would like to second and third and fourth, etc., Phil's observation that the teaching of non-Torah observance is not okay.
As I stated before, and have no problem stating again and echoing him, CF is full of places where teaching that we don't have to abide by Torah is allowed and applauded so please let the Messianic Judaism forum be what it is supposed to be, a forum for the promotion of Torah observance as a set-apart lifestyle for those being saved by the Holy One of Israel.
And I, for one, will begin to hit the report button. It may become very grievous to the mods (especially in the amount of reading that may require) but promotion of non-observance in a Torah-observant forum should not be blatantly tossed around!

Tishri, let me say, I appreciate you jumping in on this. I just regret that it caused you to have to work on a day you may have had off. Makes me appreciate you and what you do all the more. Thank you greatly!!

 

[pat34lee]

Originally, as in what era?

Acts is pretty clear that many priests were believers.

It also clear that Joseph of Arimethea (probably a member of the Sanhedrin) was a believer.

I also believe that there is some evidence crypto-believers within rabbinic circles even since Yavneh.

The original point, not the original religion. Rabbinic theology as the controlling influence over all Jews began with those who rejected Yeshua and has only become more adamant against faith in him over time.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Knowing that "some "observance should be necessary to teach on a Torah subject, can you think of some other tips, anyone , that could help with the communication in here?

I think that if there's to be tips considered, one of the biggest is understanding that there's a BIG difference between teaching "non-observance" as in ignoring what the commands of Yeshua/Torah say - and then seeing "non-observance" in the sense of directly addressing that which Yeshua commanded of Gentiles and Jews to not do...and honestly addressing what the body of believers lived out, even when it differed from specific things noted in Mosaic Law.

In example, there was one thread entitled Leather jacket - made from pig skin - forbidden? where one poster asked on what the TOrah says on pigs and what things were allowed. Others - all desiring to walk according to the example of scripture and Torah - shared their thoughts...some saying nothing from pig carcasses be allowed, whereas others felt differently based on what the Torah said. I take seriously the example of Peter - who was a TOrah Observant Jew and yet he lived with an unclean Jewish tanner of animal skins ..directly before meeting COrnelius (as seen here) - and historically, Torah Observant Jews had rules that gave boundaries when it came to working with that which is unclean. Several in this thread - including those saying they're against "non-observance" of Torah - all noted that they had differences of thought when it came to animal products from animals they deemd as unkosher - including in the realm of medicine.

Some of the same people crying about Non-Observance have said they feel that perhaps the Lord isn't concerned with using products from pigs/shellfish if it involves saving a life - and honestly, I find that to be hypocritical on their parts since I've seen plenty of others who'd call what they accepted to be "NON-Observance of Torah" in their view and yet they were comfortable on it when it suited them. If we're going to want others to been seen as "Torah Observant", there needs to be an honest addressment of not simply throwing out suspicion to anyone who disagrees. To do otherwise is to spread strife where there is none - and it doesn't really reflect a true desire to live out Messianic JUDAISM when things supported by either Messianic Jews...or even Jews in full blown Judaism...or simply dismissed because others don't agree with it.


Perhaps more qualifying comments (as you've suggested before) - like "What do you mean by this?"...or giving benefit of the doubt ...or simply saying "I disagree with your intepretation - but I honor the fact that you are seeking to honor Torah as you understand it."

 

[Gxg (G²)]

We have two sub forums that should serve that purpose .....

I can't give you anymore sub forums but what I can do is rename the one we have now

I agree that the sub - forums are there for a purpose - and many have used them as they were intended. I think if you rename the one we have now, however, it wouldn't solve anything since everyone here is for Torah Observance and everyone here views the Torah as positive and wants to promote what the TOrah - be it the Mosiac Code or Pre-Torah with how the Lord worked in the era of the Patriarchs..or Torah according to Christ/the Apostles (in line with Acts 15 and Luke 10:25-39).

It really seems to come down, IMHO, to people learning how to agree to disagree agreeably - and doing what the Word says when it comes to not grumbling against neighbors/being gracious. Everyone's at a different spot in their own journey and I think that it needs to be considered rather than letting a minority group dictate how all - be it here or even with others in all parts of Messianic Judaism - should feel.

 

[pat34lee]

I'm making a bold statement because I see this ALL the time with '2 House' believers. They are anti-semetic because they reject anything Jewish. That's why it's a dangerous theology. There's is an underlying anti-semetism that most aren't aware of to de-elevate the Jewish people. It's an always us against them.

I wondered how long before somebody brought anti-Semite charges again, and you threw in 2 house to boot, though it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand. I'm a white male if you want to throw in racism and sexism while you're at it.

Tell me please, since you obviously know me better than I do (yet you still have no idea what 2 house is). What is Jewish that I hate so much? And why is it different than Christianity, with which I also have many of the same problems?

 

[Qnts2]

Sorry, but I believe that Messiah and His apostles were the first group of Messianic Jews

They were the first group of Messianic Jews, aka followers of the way, disciple of Messiah, and Christians.

But, the number of Jewish believers were quickly eclipsed by Gentile believers, and with Gentiles in the majority, the Jewish practices quickly faded. A level of anti-semitism entered into the Gentile church which sought to eliminate anything Jewish.

Since that time, there have always been Jewish believers, but few in number.

In the late 1800's, various Jewish believers had started missions efforts to the Jewish people and along with that, formed congregations for Jewish believers to attend. Unfortunately, the congregations normally did not last that long, as there were too few Jewish believers.

In the 1970's the Hebrew Christian alliance (founded in 1915) renamed itself the Messianic Jewish Alliance. This coincided with a large number of Jewish people who were coming to believe on Yeshua. (Large is relative as, at that time, 1000 new Jewish believers would have been a large number). The MJAA as a membership organization provided support, and annual meetings for the Jewish believers. Messianic Judaism synagogues were started. As the MJ synagogues became more numberous (1 per major city), there was a need for an alliance of some sort for the leaders to meet and so the Union of Messianic Judaism congregations was formed.

From the history of the MJAA:

The History of the Messianic Jewish Alliance of America

The Messianic Jewish Alliance of America (MJAA), founded in 1915, is the largest association of Messianic Jews and non-Jewish believers in Yeshua (Jesus) in the world. Its purpose is threefold:
• To testify to the large and growing number of Jewish people who believe that Yeshua (Hebrew for Jesus) is the promised Jewish Messiah and Savior of the world;
• To bring together Jews and non-Jews who have a shared vision for Jewish revival; and
• Most importantly, to introduce our Jewish brothers and sisters to the Jewish Messiah Yeshua.
Why is this necessary? For many centuries Jews have frequently suffered at the hands of those calling themselves followers of Jesus. At the same time, the "Good News" or gospel of Yeshua was often presented without mention of this gospel's roots in God's relationship with His Jewish people throughout Scripture, and His promise of salvation through the Jewish Messiah.
These factors lead many Jews to assume that to follow Yeshua is to leave the faith of their fathers and become non-Jews. The MJAA has worked to combat this misperception for nearly 90 years.
Most MJAA members attend independent Messianic Jewish congregations and synagogues. The MJAA is also affiliated with Messianic Jewish alliances in fifteen countries, including Israel.


From the UMJC 'Introduction to the UMJC' by Russ Resnick

3:MessianicJudaismReborn
THE LATE 60S AND EARLY 70S saw the rise of a grass-roots Jesus movement that attracted all
kinds of people, including younger counter-culture types, many of whom were Jewish. In the
mid-70s, Dan Juster, who was to become a key Messianic Jewish figure, was leading the First
Hebrew Christian Church, founded in Chicago in 1934 by the Presbyterians. Dan caught a vision
of expressing his faith in Yeshua in a more Jewish way and shifted to worship on Shabbat, keeping
the Jewish holidays, and a positive attitude toward Torah. One of his worship leaders was Joel
Chernoff, who went on to pioneer Messianic Jewish music as part of the group Lamb. Joel had
come to the congregation with the revolutionary idea of employing Jewish style worship songs in
place of the old hymns. The idea took off. First Hebrew Christian Church was renamed Adat
Hatikvah to reflect its new Jewish self-image.
Changes like these contributed to the development of the messianic synagogue. This structure
seemed to resolve the identity crisis of Jewish followers of Yeshua, bringing their Jewish identity
into the heart of their worship life. The messianic synagogue provided for a corporate expression
of Jewish heritage and freed Jewish believers in Yeshua from church structures and customs that
often seemed alien to them.

page 17

The Messianic Distinctive
Some of the Jewish members of the 70s Jesus movement began to apply the Jewishness of the
New Testament to themselves. If the early messianic believers remained fully Jewish, why
couldn’t they? This position seemed natural to young people who had come to faith in Yeshua but
remained a bit suspicious of institutional Christianity. Such an idea had its detractors, of course.
Some conservative Christians warned their Messianic Jewish friends against re-erecting what
they called the “wall of division” (Ephesians 2:14), or going back “under the Law.” Charismatic
Christian friends worried that these Jewish followers of Yeshua were choosing mere tradition
over the flow and power of the Holy Spirit. The Jewish world accused them of deception. If you
believe in Jesus, they said, you have converted to Christianity and should simply admit it.
During this period, my wife, Jane, and I met Eliezer Urbach, an older Messianic Jew working
with the American Board of Missions to the Jews. He was of our parents’ generation and had fled
his homeland in Poland just ahead of Hitler’s invasion in 1939. He survived the war years in
Russia, including time in prison where he lost his brother, and served in the Red Army. At the
war’s end, Eliezer returned to Poland to find his home and family destroyed. He emigrated to
Israel just before the outbreak of its war for independence. Finally, in the mid-50s, Eliezer and his
wife Sara migrated to Brazil, where they came to faith in Yeshua.
When we met him, Eliezer was living in Denver, and coming monthly to Albuquerque, where
we lived, to establish a Hebrew-Christian fellowship in our city. He quickly took us under his
wing, and became a grandfather figure to our young sons Luke and Danny, and our daughters
Sarah and Anna. When this man with his long gray beard entered the house, one of our little girls
became frightened and began to cry. Eliezer pulled some candy out of his pocket and won her
over; he remained “Grandpa” until his death. Soon after meeting our children, he confronted me
with the question: “Will they have a part in the Christmas pageant or the Chanukah play? You
have to choose.”
This sort of choice, which many young Jewish followers of Yeshua were considering, led to
the idea of separate Messianic Jewish congregations, which writer David Rausch rightly calls “the
Messianic distinctive.”10 As Messianic Jewish congregations began to multiply in the late 70s and
into the 80s, however, the questions remained. Was it legitimate to establish new congregations
for the express purpose of maintaining a distinct Messianic Jewish element within the larger Body
of Messiah?

From page 18

“Messianic Jew” is a newer term, although it appeared as early as 1917, as a topic of
controversy within the Hebrew Christian Alliance.12 One Alliance member, Rev. John Mark
Levy, had proposed a resolution stating that Hebrew Christians were free to affirm and observe
those Jewish rites, including circumcision of their children, which are consistent with faith in
Yeshua as Messiah. This position, termed Messianic Judaism, was soundly denounced by the
Alliance:

From page 21

The UMJC
The Messianic Jewish congregations that were springing up all around the world were evidence
of God’s work among the Jewish people. In 1979 nineteen congregations in North America came
together to form the Union of Messianic Jewish Congregations (UMJC), the first congregational
association among Jewish followers of Yeshua. Its original five objectives continue to guide the
organization today:
• To further the initiation, establishment, and growth of Messianic Jewish congregations
worldwide.
• To be a voice for Messianic Jewish congregations and Messianic Judaism worldwide.
• To provide a forum for the discussion of issues relevant to Messianic Judaism and
Messianic Jewish congregations.
• To aid in the causes of our Jewish people worldwide, especially in Israel.
• To support the training of Messianic leaders.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Just a note and please let me know if I heard both groups correctly ......

Ez you don't like it when folks bash Christians in MJ right?

Hi Tish

Yes, you heard me right. We're to slander no one according to scripture (Titus 3:1-4, James 3:12-18, etc.) and the Messianic Movement at large has noted repeatedly how it is neither Jewish nor scriptural to claim that CHristians universally do not care for Torah Observance - or to claim that Messianics inherently seek to keep more of the TOrah fully whereas the Church/Christians somehow only do a part-time job (as that's belittling). THe same thing goes for saying that others are not against Christians/devaluing them - and yet still making comments that can come off as back-handed (i.e. saying "Well, of course we're not saved by our observance of the Law - but if CHristians/Church were really appreciative of the Lord, they'd seek to walk in it more like we are..." ..doing exactly what the Bible warns against in James 5 on not judging our neighbors).

I also take serious issue with all of us claiming to want to honor Messianic Jews and yet denouncing them and outright ignoring them when it comes to claims that one cannot be both Messianic and Christian - seeing that the mainstream Messianic Jewish groups have long said they are in connection with the Church - an arm of outreach really - and supportative of CHristians. Dr.Michael Brown has done excessive amounts of work in aiding Jewish believers see Yeshua as a Jew within Judaism who loved TOrah - and yet I've heard it said of him/countless other Messianics "THey don't really care about Jewish culture if they're Jewish...but we do care about Judaism!!!!". That's an insult and historically inaccurate.

IMHO, there needs to be no allowance for anyone to tell any believer on this forum that they cannot be TOrah Observant and Messianic yet CHrisitan. For again - be it with the MJAA or UMJC or with any other Jewish/Gentile belieever attending Messianic fellowships here who love Torah - it doesn't represent them, There needs to be room to discuss how certain things done in the name of the CHristian world don't accurately reflect Jewish culture - but there should be no room to throw bombs or do witch hunts that say "They can't be here cause they're a Christian/Messianic!!!"..

Same goes for others making complaints saying "This isn't Judaism - so I guess this is a Hebrew CHristian FOrum or a Messianic Chrisitan forum rather than Messianic Judaism forum, huh>??!!....for again, too many Messianic Jews have noted Judaism can exist without Christianity but CHristianity cannot exist without Judaism - and Messianic Judaism is Jewish CHrisitanity. Judaism within a CHristian context (Christ centered).

 

[macher]

The original point, not the original religion. Rabbinic theology as the controlling influence over all Jews began with those who rejected Yeshua and has only become more adamant against faith in him over time.

It began with those who rejected Yeshua? What about Hillel?

 

[Tishri1]

I appreciate your concern and no you most certainly can discuss levels of observance here .

I think what you may be missing is the fact that many Jews in particular and spouses intermarried may not follow every Torah practice or any at all . Their experience may be strictly cultural but even in culture their respect for torah practices and tradition is still there when they attend synagogue and so it should be here when subjects come up.

MJ is known for its high regard of Torah and the teaching is Torah positive from the bema , so regardless how they live life with everyone having their own convictions ,the identity remains for the group a respect for Torah

Yonah what do you think about using words that belittle and flame as a tactic in quieting folks who do not agree with you? I see that a lot all over CF as I'm sure you do too....we all succumb to using it at times when we are weak and need to protect ourselves

I am hoping to help ourselves here find better ways to communicate and I understand the draw folks can have towards using belittling and flaming, but your a linguist and I was hoping you might be able to share some tips you use to resist using belittling and flaming in conversation . Got anything that can help here?

I still have a hard time understanding what exactly “Torah observance” – and other such terms – really means here. It’s so generic that it doesn’t carry any specific meaning, and I think that’s what causes problems. If someone suddenly claims that keeping the Torah includes cutting the foreskin off of your own son (rather than having a mohel do it, since mohalim are not mentioned in the Torah), would it be “anti-Torah” to state that this is not how it should be done? After all, Abraham (not a doctor) circumcised his own household and Moses himself (not a doctor) cut the foreskin of his son, Gershom. Does opposing oddball practices that have nothing to do with Torah observance itself push someone over the line into “anti-Torah” argumentation?

I have to say – as an outsider – that all of this posturing seems to be due to a weakness in argument. If it were truly demonstrable that the New Testament promoted the observance of Torah, would you need to set up rules that keep people from talking about it? These rules seem to be a safety net to keep honest discussion at bay. That’s my two cents (2¢).

 

[Tishri1]

Why would pro-Torah teaching be against "gentiles are not to keep Torah/law done away with"?? in MJ? Seriously, if the Jews have their way, then MJ will stand for Judiasm is only for Jews.

I'm not following you there

 

[Tishri1]

Well that depends on which congregation one attends and/or the organization it's under such as MJAA, UMJC etc.

Congregations I'm used too and acquainted with the focus is Yeshua. The focus isn't ethnos but the Logos as the promise Savior who Moses in the Law and the prophets did write. In regards to Torah observance there isn't even any issues on levels of observance or condemnation of no observance. However we do worship on the Sabbath. And there are LOTS of believers who also are members of churches worship with us. Of course at events the food that is served is according to Lev 11 but it's not a focus, it's just the way it is.

Mine is like that too

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So it sounds like you also agree that being here means that you do agree with differing levels of Torah Observance just having also respect for Christians who come in asking questions and not belittle them when they dont see scripture saying what MJ teaching says right?

Hi Tish.

Thank you again for taking the time to answer the concerns of others in what they have been processing - and hearing people out.

I think (in line with the UMJC/Messianic fellowships supporting them) that there are differing levels of Torah Observance and yet TOrah Observance doesn't mean all things in the Mosaic Code were asked to be observed for all time - be it with sacrifices in the sacrifical system, laws regarding the civil life (i.e. cities of refuge, rules on stoning others for violating Sabbath, etc.). I agree with other Messianic Jews who note that TOrah Observance - to be consistent - means honestly addressing those things Gentiles were never asked by the Lord to observe and seeing those things that Yeshua himself chose not to observe (and his Word takes precedence) or that Jewish believers observed differently in the NT era/early church because of having a different relationship to the Temple than did others in mainstream Judaism ..the ones often persecuting them when they didn't do all of the things in line with rabbinical Judaism or the Mosaic Code because of what Yeshua had done. I don't think it'd be academic honesty or historically accurate/consistent with Jewish culture to say otherwise.

I think that there needs to be respect when others from Mainstream CHrisitanity come in and they either don't agree immediately - or don't understand. Others often haven't felt comfortable if it feels that questions they ask are automatically followed up with "Well you didn't agree and you're not Messianic - so GET OUTTA HERE!!!"...for that comes off way too aggressive/watch dog). The same goes for calling all CHristians "ANti-Semitic" (or saying CHristian Theology is inherently against Jewish culture even when there're Jewish forms of CHrisitanity that've never been anything close).




Again, for some practical examples of things that should not be said when it comes to inflamming/lying on other groups:

• "Most Christians have no love for the Jewish people or ever made it possible for true Jewishness to be expressed in their fellowship

• "Christians will be told by Yeshua "Depart from me, you workers of Torahlessness" because no Christians or people in Churches are concerned for His Torah."

• "The Jesus Christ that the Church follows is a myth and is not the same Savior of Israel we worship."

• "They're just Hebrew Christian -and Hebrew Christians could never be truly in Messianic Judaism or Jewish"

• "MJ has compromised with Christian theology, which has an anti-Semitic nature "

• "Messianic Judaism needs to takes steps in breaking ties with Christianity in order to be Jewish - as anything else is making things up"

• "Christians teach Torah is done away with and Jews teach Torah is not for Gentiles!!! But We AS Messianics/the True Torah Observant do not do that!!!"

These things have been said direclty - both here and elsewhere. Messianic Jews have long noted God is sovereign over His people/Body - be it Mainstream CHrisitans or Messianic CHristians - and thus, there needs to be accuracy given to both. Just as others don't go around saying as other Messianic Jews that all who are "One Law" are for replacement theology (and there're several here who have noted support for One Law - even thouGH they've been raising fuss over it )............so there shouldn't be any talk of all CHristians/CHrisitanity being negative.

We already have it where there's really zero tolerance for things like anti-missionaries - and the same thing should be present for others who have made it well known, be it here or in other forums, that they have zero tolerance for Christians/Christianity and the Church. Scripture has to be paramount for us...

Leviticus 19:16
“‘Do not go about spreading slander among your people.
​

Ephesians 4:31
Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.
Ephesians 4:30-32

Colossians 3:8
But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips.
Colossians 3:7-9

Titus 3:1-3
Remind the people to be subject to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready to do whatever is good, 2 to slander no one, to be peaceable and considerate, and always to be gentle toward everyone.

James 4:11
Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
James 4:10-12
​

 

[Tishri1]

True however what I find here is a lot of contention against those in Christianity whether they come here and preach against or they don't. Which is my point. When someone posts that they observe Sunday as an example without preaching against Saturday.... Other who keep Saturday shouldn't come and preach against those that keep Sunday especially if the person isn't preaching against neither.

I guess I'm defending the Christians here who fall in this category.

That would fall under the belittling and flaming and let me add rudeness to visitors....

What do we do that for ?
It's done all over CF ,except maybe in the newbee areas
We need tactics to help prevent ourselves from acting this way to each other and visitors

But we also should talk about why we let ourselves do this behavior

Any ideas why we choose this path of belittling and flaming? What do you all think is driving us in that direction?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

So it sounds like you also agree that being here means that you do agree with differing levels of Torah Observance just having also respect for Christians who come in asking questions and not belittle them when they dont see scripture saying what MJ teaching says right?

Hi Tish....


As said earlier to another, I think it is something that otherrs need to be honest about in light of how others - from the MJAA to UMJC (of which one of the mods belongs to at her church) - have noted that same reality. We cannot arbitrarily begin to say "Well, they're teaching Non-Observance of Torah because they disagree with my own view of what Torah calls for in observance" - as that goes nowhere quick.

And in all of the discussion, I've yet to see one example of where someone has acturately shown that something was ever being against what the TORAH said. Many times, in being asked to go in-depth, a lot of people then raise fuss of not having to defend their view.....yet the people choosing to explain their own views based on what the OT/Torah says get flack.

For all of the discussion on enforcing TOrah Observance/addressing Non-Torah Observance, I really don't see where many of the people complaining have consistently been for observing TOrah on all parts. For there are multiple parts of the Mosaic Law/613 that every poster complaining have often said cannot be played out today - due to the Land not being where we live....and due to the lack of an established priesthood as well as resources.

I've seen several instances where those complaining on Torah Observance say they want something done about the MJs who are not observant consistantly or at all in areas - but again, who here on this forum has at any point qualified as being observant in all areas and consistently? Every poster on the thread has at one point or another not observed in one area for a myriad of reasons - many feeling like they either don't have freedom to or don't see the need to do when they observe in others...and some saying it cannot be done as they'd like. I don't think it'd be honest for anyone to speak on Torah Observance and not own up to where they've already done this.

How is it that whenever they share on such (and it can easily be documented) that it is not equally deemed by them to be "Non-Torah Observance" by their logic - and yet they complain on all other Messianics not observing on things they feel are central? It seems, IMHO, like a case of "Do as I say, Not as I do.."..and that comes off as extreme hypocrisy at the worse......or innocent failure to notice inconsistency in stances.

It's one thing to claim someone's not "Torah Observant" because they feel that the dietary laws of the Mosaic code were ever meant to apply for all time to Jewish believers - but it's another thing to actually show historically/contexually that what they advocate as "Torah Observance" for the DIetary Laws is just that. Messianic Jews have all debated - all in desire of keeping/observing Kosher - what rules were meant to be in play for Jewish people.

Shoot, others feel that eating bugs of certain types like locusts are allowed while others are to discontinue - such as is the case with the Jews of Yemen and how they have been deemed to be "non-Kosher" by the Askenazi Jews for their views on eating locusts. Both groups are focused on Torah/honoring it - and yet both have differences on what is or isn't to be "kosher". More was discussed explictly on the subject here, here and here/here. Even some of the people here complaining actually jumped in/shared their thoughts of where they didn't really agree with certain foods in the Dietary Laws because they were not comfortable eating bugs as other Jewish groups were - and there was honest dialouge on what it means to live according to Kosher.

But by the logic of some arguing in the thread, if one side feels another is acting "non-kosher", then it's okay to rant that what they do is promoting "non observance".....and it is completely divorced from anything related to Jewish culture/Torah when others do just that. That needs to stop..

Some have suggested reporting - although others, truthfully, have considered it in reverse if it feels others are bullied for disagreeing. The same goes for a host of other issues.

 

[Tishri1]

Yikes this thread is getting away from me again you all are fast posters!!! I'm gonna let it go but let's stick to addressing ways to keep from flaming our own and visitors who come here k? I will be back tomorrow morning

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I don't like it when people bash Christians too. I have more often than not most people who associate themselves with being Messianic bash Christians. Notice I didn't say Messianic Jews. The likes of the MJAA don't bash Christians, in fact they have close relationships with many churches and organizations. I find that's it's almost 100% non Jewish Messianic who bash Christians because there is resentment.

I agree. ANd there needs, IMHO, no allowance of that.

I would even say the same thing for what was noted earlier with other Messianic Jews going to Messianic fellowships and yet involved in parts of the Church - like liturgical circles, as is the case with Hebrew Catholics. I think part of what others have had issue with is that is that many coming into the Messianic movement have brought in things from the Radical Protestant movement that aren't really anything other than a traditional party line in the Protestant camp - and within Messianic Judaism, others have noted that to be a concern. Too many people have shouted "That's not OBSERVANT Judaism" simply if you note agreement with something done in Catholic, Anglican or Orthodox circles - and yet no one deals with showing what other Messianics have said on it. No one deals with how others truly trying to live out the Torah observantly have noted that they went into other cirlces with tradition/liturgical basis - and felt that they were observing consistently with the Torah and what was expressed in Judaism.

TOo many Jews have noted otherwise to ignore that. It doesn't seem sensible, IMHO, to claim one cannot be a Messianic Jew (or a Messianic Gentile) for noting agreement with parts of the CHurch/Christendom when seeing how they reflect what the Hebrews lived out in the OT/NT. And many of the people saying they're Messianic often do no differently than what you'd see in the Protestant world.