Messianic Judaism?

[ananda]

It’s interesting that you refer to Anglicans over and against Roman Catholics. Do you think it would be in MJ’s best interest to splinter into a million factions like what has happened with mainstream Protestantism?

No, it's not in MJ's best interest to splinter, but it is unavoidable, since no man can force another against his or her will to "believe" something.

This was prophesied by Messiah:

Think not that I came to send peace on the earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law: and a man's foes shall be they of his own household - Mt 10:34-36
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Would it not be in their interest to endorse a leader who will encapsulate as many diverse views as can be tolerated under an umbrella that includes the major doctrinal ingredients?

We already have that Leader - He is Messiah. Any one lesser than Him would be an anti-messiah; anti- not necessarily in the sense of one who is against Messiah, but one in place of Messiah.

The problem is just that – that there are so many who don’t have the requisite knowledge making doctrinal decisions and starting their own followings. If I were ever to become an MJ, I would follow the MJAA or another recognized group rather than starting my own movement. Can’t you agree that even if you don’t accept every tenet of the religious statement, you should remain in fellowship? Does it mean nothing? I don’t agree with all of Conservative Judaism, but I would never start my own group…

How does an earthly family operate? Sisters and brothers, fathers and mothers, sons and daughters, may have varying opinions on different things, but there is one commonality that binds them all - their relationship to a common ancestor. In the same way, the thing that binds us as spiritual brethren is not our common beliefs, but our relationship with our common Master and heavenly Husband - Messiah Himself.

I believe this was also what the apostle John meant, when he wrote "By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments." - 1Jn 5:2. We do not necessarily love our brethren by coming together in a common set of beliefs. We love our brethren by loving our common Master, and by following Him in obedience. When we change ourselves to become more and more like Him, we will naturally come together with common goals. We are each like walking on spokes on a wheel, with Elohim and Messiah at the center. You may be on the spoke at a 45 degree angle to the center, whereas I am at 88 degrees. From each of our perspectives, we are radically different. But as we progress to the center of the wheel down the spoke as we walk towards Elohim and Messiah, we will naturally become closer and more alike - to Him, and one another.

We are each uniquely individual sheep, with uniquely individual characteristics, yet we are all His.

 

[pat34lee]

Like the Apostle Paul

And they accepted him like a brother, right? More like a red-headed stepchild.

 

[pat34lee]

Isaac Licthenstein

Zvi Soloveitchik possibly.

Rabbi Daniel Zion.

Rabbi Yechiel Tzvi Lichtenstein

Thanks, I'll look them up.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I haven't heard of any real examples. Do they still hold the same level of prestige of their communities and fellow Jews that they had before becoming believers?

Some did, in their own communities. A few are listed in post 376. There bios can be found here.

 

[macher]

And they accepted him like a brother, right? More like a red-headed stepchild.

It doesn't matter. Paul stayed with Judaism and the traditions. Whether or not Paul was accepted by his brethren in the flesh is irrelevant.

 

[mishkan]

Isaac Licthenstein

Zvi Soloveitchik possibly.

Yes.

Aside-->
Steve (and anyone else reading)...

Might I trouble you with a request that you use the "Quote" button instead of the "Reply" button? "Reply" provides no indication of what you are responding to, and drops your new post to the bottom of the thread. It is a horribly inconvenient and confusing way of responding to anybody other than the very first post in the thread. Todah.
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[Gxg (G²)]

Brother, judging from the PMs I have received today, and the post by Tal above, I think there is a massive amount of disengenuous posting right now. What has shocked me is that it was all orchestrated- deliberate misquotes and everything. So, I just say let them have at it. If they honestly believe such things....let em believe it. One day they will find the healthy balance and work it out.

I've been aware of the disengenuous posting on certain levels for sometime - as others have been making that known for a good minute. It is not well hidden or paticularly difficult to discover - and a couple of posters have noted that, alongside mods.

When people say they are planning on doing an action ( on another site ) for the sake of amusement or deliberatly trying attempts to "expose" people - only to come here/act as if it's all genuine/the first time something is said - I do find that to be a pity. THe same thing goes for saything things directly counter to anything noted here and then playing as if nothing was said. ..or doing misquotes as you noted.

The scriptures are very direct on that - as noted in Proverbs 21:29

Seriously, if you really wanted to go there, all it would require is placing direct quotes on the matter (based on what occurs elsewhere) where others have said in no uncertain terms things that are directly opposite of what is said here - and if others denied it, then it would be rather evident as to what people really felt on being honest in the matter. Of course, I don't suggest you do that since it's not allowed - and, for that matter, it's not a good investment of time when you already know who you are and that you as well as others love the Torah/God's law.

Several posters here have actually noted before how they experienced the same - in being mistreated (including those who are Jewish - the ones people say they wish to reach out to in line with living out Jewish culture) -so it's not a random occurence. ANd several have noted how unfortunate that is - and when other non believing Jews point out the fact that certain things are not really attractive, that's something to take seriously.

Seriously, at this point, it's simply a matter of recognizing futility. Nothing done at any point by anyone has been close to the ways many try to exaggerate it and it's crying over nothing.

 

[pat34lee]

Isaac Licthenstein

Zvi Soloveitchik possibly.

Rabbi Daniel Zion.

Rabbi Yechiel Tzvi Lichtenstein

Ignatz Licthenstein, pen name Isaac, believed in Yeshua but never officially became Christian, refusing to be baptized into any church. The Jews did not accept him.
Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein - Why I believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah

 

[mishkan]

Ignatz Licthenstein, pen name Isaac, believed in Yeshua but never officially became Christian, refusing to be baptized into any church. The Jews did not accept him.
Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein - Why I believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah

Precisely.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Ignatz Licthenstein, pen name Isaac, believed in Yeshua but never officially became Christian, refusing to be baptized into any church. The Jews did not accept him.
Rabbi Isaac Lichtenstein - Why I believe Yeshua is the Jewish Messiah

His own congregation stayed loyal to him. I said that in a previous post.

If becoming a Christian means being baptized into a church rather than submitting to Christ, then, no, he was not a 'Christian.'

Personally, I am glad he stayed within Judaism. Shows that you can be a believer in Jesus and still practice Judasim.

 

[Qnts2]

... but who and what makes the MJAA/UMJC/etc. the definitive voice for Messianic Judaism?

Only those Messianics who came together to organize the MJAA are those who have voluntarily subjected themselves to the MJAA. Messianics who have not endorsed the MJAA are not in subjection, nor can those associated with the MJAA demand their subjection. Substitute MJAA for UMJC, or any other group, and the thought remains the same.

The "problem" remains the same outside of Messianic Judaism. The RCC has its own system, but it does not prevent others (e.g. Anglicans, etc.) from ordaining their own bishops and archbishops and calling themselves the "authentic church". As I am not part of the RCC, it has no authority to demand that I (or the Anglicans) observe its traditions and sacraments, nor should I care if they declare me (or the Anglicans) anathema. Nor am I part of the MJAA or UMJC, and in the same way, these groups and their adherents have no authority to demand that I observe their traditions, nor should I care if they declare me anathema.

Ultimately it comes down to man's desire to control others, man's desire to set up a hierarchy, and man's desire for his identity group to control those outside its sphere of influence. However, it should not be so, as Messiah taught (Mt 20:25-28, 1Pet 5:3, Mt 23:8, etc.). Our beliefs, actions, and identity are ultimately not accountable to any one else but Elohim and Messiah.

The MJAA was the first group of Messianic Jews, and the UMJC was the first group of Messianic Judaism congregations. As the first groups, they defined Messianic Judaism. These are the two largest Messianic Judaism groups.

There was no desire to control people but rather, provide a community of those with a common Jewish view. Others have tried to alter what Messianic Judaism is and it's purposes, so the two groups came together to define what constitutes Messianic Judaism, that the membership can agree with.

A belief too far outside of these groups falls outside of Messianic Judaism and would be a different group of beliefs and a different group of people.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The first Messianics were Jesus' disciples and guys like Cornelius.

 

[mishkan]

His own congregation stayed loyal to him. I said that in a previous post.

If becoming a Christian means being baptized into a church rather than submitting to Christ, then, no, he was not a 'Christian.'

Personally, I am glad he stayed within Judaism. Shows that you can be a believer in Jesus and still practice Judasim.

 

[Qnts2]

His own congregation stayed loyal to him. I said that in a previous post.

If becoming a Christian means being baptized into a church rather than submitting to Christ, then, no, he was not a 'Christian.'

Personally, I am glad he stayed within Judaism. Shows that you can be a believer in Jesus and still practice Judasim.

Judaism believes baptism is a conversion to another religion. So, other then certain churches like the RCC which does make baptism a part of conversion, to my knowledge most Protestant churches, do not view baptism is what makes a person a Christian.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Judaism believes baptism is a conversion to another religion. So, other then certain churches like the RCC which does make baptism a part of conversion, to my knowledge most Protestant churches, do not view baptism is what makes a person a Christian.

Judaism has many baptisms. Paul even uses the plural of this word in Hebrews.

 

[ananda]

The MJAA was the first group of Messianic Jews, and the UMJC was the first group of Messianic Judaism congregations. As the first groups, they defined Messianic Judaism ...

Sorry, but I believe that Messiah and His apostles were the first group of Messianic Jews

 

[pat34lee]

His own congregation stayed loyal to him. I said that in a previous post.

If becoming a Christian means being baptized into a church rather than submitting to Christ, then, no, he was not a 'Christian.'

Personally, I am glad he stayed within Judaism. Shows that you can be a believer in Jesus and still practice Judasim.

The point was originally that rabbinic Judaism is against belief in Yeshua, and so far, these examples tend to support that.

 

[visionary]

Sorry, but I believe that Messiah and His apostles were the first group of Messianic Jews

...especially Messiah Yeshua...

 

[macher]

The point was originally that rabbinic Judaism is against belief in Yeshua, and so far, these examples tend to support that.

So what's your point? As noted there were Jewish believers who still 'practiced' Judaism.

I'm a Jewish believer and still practice Judaism as well as other Jewish believers.

 

[Steve Petersen]

The point was originally that rabbinic Judaism is against belief in Yeshua, and so far, these examples tend to support that.

Originally, as in what era?

Acts is pretty clear that many priests were believers.

It also clear that Joseph of Arimethea (probably a member of the Sanhedrin) was a believer.

I also believe that there is some evidence crypto-believers within rabbinic circles even since Yavneh.