Messianic Judaism?

[Tishri1]

Ok soo i am correct if i am assuming that the level of torah observance is not being debated and that folks who have some level of Torah observance are encouraged to participate is all you all want here correct ?........ But if no observance exists then to refrain from teaching non observance and just remain quite on that topic of discussion is what is being asked here? Correct?

Hi Tish,

Nutshell point of contention: Non-observance is not a level of Torah observance.

Whenever the subject of Messianic Judaism come up, certain members who claim to be Torah observant by virtue of the fact that they claim the scroll icon, continue to teach non-observance - especially to those coming here to inquire about Messianic Judaism. From the perspective of Torah observance in Messianic Judaism, it has always and will continue to always be more than mainstream Christian doctrine concerning 'the Law'. It is more that just keeping the Ten Commandments with special dispensation for those that want to observe Sabbath on Sunday. And the Torah observant in this forum are tired of getting shouted down and having to argue the same points time and again.

I thought that this was settled. I thought that this is what the new SOP was supposed to address. Not judging someone for keeping Kosher different than another, I can understand. Teaching newbies that Torah observance is not a tenet of Messianic Judaism is an entirely different matter. And in doing so, those that claim the scroll icon but are not Torah observant (counter to the SOP) and post extensive links to 'authoritative sources' that also denounce Torah observance, these 'Messianics' are seeking agreement from those that claim Christian icons too.

This is not what we voted on. It is not what we agreed to. But it is what we got. These are the same issues that we had before the new SOP.

 

[visionary]

While I agree with your factual observations, I would have to take exception to you ascription of motivation.

I started as a Christian, and a rather zealous one, at that. The closer I drew to Jews and Judaism, the more I perceived that their were fundamental assumptions in Christianity that worked contrary to that movement--ideas that needed to be unlearned.

It was R. Kendall Soulen's book, "The God of Israel and Christian Theology", that finally demonstrated to me that the whole of Christian theology is founded upon supercessionism.

My theological emphasis is not driven by anti-Church motives, but by pro-Israel feelings. The recognition that the Bible is only and entirely about the Israeli empire, rather than a non-Israel Gentile community we call "the Church", is key to developing a consistent Bible-based theology.

amen... worth repeating..

 

[Steve Petersen]

Ok soo i am correct if i am assuming that the level of torah observance is not being debated and that folks who have some level of Torah observance are encouraged to participate is all you all want here correct ?........ But if no observance exists then to refrain from teaching non observance and just remain quite on that topic of discussion is what is being asked here? Correct?

Yes, for me.

 

[Avodat]

While I agree with your factual observations, I would have to take exception to you ascription of motivation.

I started as a Christian, and a rather zealous one, at that. The closer I drew to Jews and Judaism, the more I perceived that their were fundamental assumptions in Christianity that worked contrary to that movement--ideas that needed to be unlearned.

It was R. Kendall Soulen's book, "The God of Israel and Christian Theology", that finally demonstrated to me that the whole of Christian theology is founded upon supercessionism.

My theological emphasis is not driven by anti-Church motives, but by pro-Israel feelings. The recognition that the Bible is only and entirely about the Israeli empire, rather than a non-Israel Gentile community we call "the Church", is key to developing a consistent Bible-based theology.

And there was me thinking the Bible was all about being the final and complete self revelation of G_d. How silly of me!

 

[Tishri1]

Phil said it all in a nutshell, Tish. That's exactly what was and is happening. Some of these don't even fly a scroll!!!!

Well
Scroll or no scroll just so you all know we go by the sop for all teaching but if there is no scroll and nothing Identifying them as MJ that is usually tagged with the congregational rule if that post is reported ... Gotta be MJ to teach in the MJ forum here

 

[macher]

Ok soo i am correct if i am assuming that the level of torah observance is not being debated and that folks who have some level of Torah observance are encouraged to participate is all you all want here correct ?........ But if no observance exists then to refrain from teaching non observance and just remain quite on that topic of discussion is what is being asked here? Correct?

What observances are in question? Whatever the observances in question are then yes no one should not come hear and teach against it. On the other hand if one doesn't keep these observances in question then the person shouldn't be judged as anti-Torah especially if the believer exemplifies love of God and neighbor just because the person is a Christian.

 

[visionary]

What observances are in question? Whatever the observances in question are then yes no one should not come hear and teach against it. On the other hand if one doesn't keep these observances in question then the person shouldn't be judged as anti-Torah especially if the believer exemplifies love of God and neighbor just because the person is a Christian.

How about teaching the changes like Euchrist for Seder, Sunday for sabbath, etc.. is that anti-Torah?? not saying it is anti-Christian mind you.

 

[aniello]

Well
Scroll or no scroll just so you all know we go by the sop for all teaching but if there is no scroll and nothing Identifying them as MJ that is usually tagged with the congregational rule if that post is reported ... Gotta be MJ to teach in the MJ forum here

Does this apply to pastors/priests who post herein who post under an icon other than the scroll also?

 

[macher]

How about teaching the changes like Euchrist for Seder, Sunday for sabbath, etc.. is that anti-Torah?? not saying it is anti-Christian mind you.

My post was CLEAR, no one should come here and teach against the observances. See me thinks by default you're throwing in something that is against Christians by your comment.

 

[Tishri1]

Second point of contention: Contending for Torah observance in a Torah observant forum is not attacking Christianity - Nor does the accusation sound like something that a Torah observant Messianic would say either.

ok so it's true that only anti Torah Christian teaching is being called out here and maybe general Christian teaching off topic to the forum that disrupts the peace and harmony here? ( trying to place this with in the congregational rules we have)

But you are not trying to attack Christians just keep the Teaching Torah positive correct?

I just want to pause and point out that some of the fears stated have been calmed already it sounds like ... Please tell me if this is true....

You don't want to insist on a certain level of Torah observance or remove icons if the observance isn't high enough correct?

And ....You just want the teaching to remain Torah submissive , Torah positive not anti Torah or Torah negative?
Correct?

 

[visionary]

My post was CLEAR, no one should come here and teach against the observances. See me thinks by default you're throwing in something that is against Christians by your comment.

No ... asking... is these kind of things .. anti-Torah? Because until we are clear that our defending against these kind of postings, in this section of the forum, then what is anti-Torah?

 

[Tishri1]

That's right. But everytime one of us says something like that, we get bomblasted with reasons that we are wrong and wronging everyone else.
It becomes very disheartening. We'd like to fellowship here and be of help to those who are truly interested in learning about Messianic Judaism but we can't give any answers that don't get drowned in pages and pages of traditional Christianity churchese that is not Messianic Judaism.

So frustration in the way Torah is being discussed? Or other topics in general?

 

[Tishri1]

Ok so it sounds like we are still talking about observance though ....and what level is acceptable to teach torah at.....

And so far I see no one objects to folks who have "some" level of Torah observance offering their .02$ and yet those who have no observance are being ask to refrain from those discussions

I think another issue that is to be considered is what Contra noted well earlier - and that's having a basis that's consistent to judge by for support. It does no sensible good talking on anything regarding Messianic Judaism/Torah observance when that which used to be a standard with the founders of Modern Messianic Judaism are not seen as the ones that are mirrored here. If the name is to be maintained, it needs to be walked out according to what's actually happening in the movement. In example, having a majority of people who are Sacred Namers/One Law (i.e. Gentiles must live as Jews to be considered observing the Torah ) is something that the large marjority of Messianic Jews have all stood against and noted via scripture/Biblical history that it is not how Jewish believers see Gentiles.

If a forum claims it is about Torah Observance in the name of Mesianic Judaism, it needs to stay in step with the movement that began it - and as those in Sacred Namers/One Law groups have been spoken against, it is honorable to walk in line with that. Others who disagree have freedom to do so - but it doesn't mean that there should be freedom to demand that all others adhere to that in order to fit their own views of observance. Again, that would not be consistent with Messianic Jewish practice/lifestyle. If/when it occurs and it's demanded that others feel like they're left out, it should be realized that the reasons why are because they have long stepped out of synch with what actually happens in the Messianic Jewish world - and others end up living out a Messianic Judaism other than that which is actually practiced/noted by real Messianic Jews. It's no different than politics where you don't go with a majority rule simply because a majority is present. You go by the laws/standards of the land you live in.

If there is not a central standard or organization - namely those leading the movement thus far - by which to go by, there's logically no point in having conversation on who is or isn't observant. It'd ultimately come down to an issue of favoritism where others were allowed because they were the most vocal in saying "They're not Observant!!" while others were judged based on their level of observance differing from those of a few.

 

[macher]

No ... asking... is these kind of things .. anti-Torah? Because until we are clear that our defending against these kind of postings, in this section of the forum, then what is anti-Torah?

As I said no one should come here and teach against and condemn observances. If a believer comes here to discuss and doesn't teach against and condemn then what's the problem if they are Christian?

 

[visionary]

If a forum claims it is about Torah Observance in the name of Mesianic Judaism, it needs to stay in step with the movement that began it - and as those in Sacred Namers/One Law groups have been spoken against, it is honorable to walk in line with that. Others who disagree have freedom to do so - but it doesn't mean that there should be freedom to demand that all others adhere to that in order to fit their own views of observance. Again, that would not be consistent with Messianic Jewish practice/lifestyle. If/when it occurs and it's demanded that others feel like they're left out, it should be realized that the reasons why are because they have long stepped out of synch with what actually happens in the Messianic Jewish world - and others end up living out a Messianic Judaism other than that which is actually practiced/noted by real Messianic Jews. It's no different than politics where you don't go with a majority rule simply because a majority is present. You go by the laws/standards of the land you live in.

Hopefully this is not the deefinitions, nor those who can declare what defines... as they are anti-one law.... and then we have not grown nor can we with that for a foundation.

 

[Avodat]

Tishri - the CF rules & the SOP are very unclear on this teaching / not-teaching thing by 'visitors'. I PM'd you a while ago and explained it to you and were going to bring the SOP into line with the general rules. This hasn't been done. If we get the rules clear there is much less room for argument. Could you please re-read my PM and implement the changes you said you were going to make?

Here is my PM to you:

Here are the two sets of rules:

Congregational Forum Restrictions, Christian Only Forums, and Off-Topic posts.
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

SoP House Rules:
All posts within this faith community must adhere to the site wide rules found here:
http://www.christianforums.com/rules/#faq_rule_0
In addition, if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic and subject to staff action.

The section in bold within the SoP House Rules makes it clear that guests may not debate, BUT it ADDS the qualification that they CAN teach as long as it is not against this group's theology. It also says nothing about being restricted to asking questions, although it does add the bit about posting in fellowship.

I hope you can see the difference. It gets confusing for everyone when one person quotes the CF rules which are clear and precise and another poster, who has looked only at the SoP, gets a different set of rules!

 

[Yahudim]

OK Tish,

One more time with feeling. I do not bash Christians. But I have been pointing out that;

1. This is a SOP declared Torah observant forum.
2. We are not to criticize another persons level of observance.
3. But non-observance is the opposite of Torah observance - not a level of Torah observance, just as non-abrasive is the opposite of abrasive.
4. Christians teach non-observance of Torah except for Jews.
5. Jews teach non-observance of Torah except for Jews.
6. Torah observant Messianics teach Torah observance.
7. Therefore, non-observance should never be taught in a Torah observant forum.

I don't bash Christians. I just don't agree with their doctrine. I don't bash Jews. I just don't agree with their doctrine. I do however tend to get a little impatient with those members that 'claim' to endorse one doctrine but openly teach another.

Tishri, you know the difference between Torah observance in Messianic Judaism and the position of mainstream Christianity. So is pointing out that non-observance of 'the Law' is mainstream Christian doctrine now Christian bashing? Is objecting to the teaching of non-observance in a supposedly Torah observant forum characterized as Christian bashing? It shouldn't be.

There were poll after poll and vote after vote where the clear majority of Messianics demanded a separation in this forum from non-observance. But we still have people in this Torah observant forum that are Messianic in name only, openly teaching mainstream Christian doctrine that directly contradicts Torah observance. This is not Christian bashing. It's plain and simply Messianic bashing.

I personally am sick of all the false flag operations of these anti-Messianics.

Messianic bashing is not Christian bashing.
Non-observance is not Torah observance.
Demanding that the SOP be honored is not uncharitable.
Demanding that Torah observance be the doctrine taught in a Torah observant forum is not hypocritical or disingenuous. Quite the opposite. It is only right. Well if this is indeed a Torah observant forum. If it's not, then we should know, don't you think?

 

[macher]

Ok so it sounds like we are still talking about observance though ....and what level is acceptable to teach torah at.....

And so far I see no one objects to folks who have "some" level of Torah observance offering their .02$ and yet those who have no observance are being ask to refrain from those discussions

It depends if the person with no observance is teaching against or condemning.

 

[Tishri1]

I can't find the rules anymore. Someone got a link? I will put them on my desktop, post them when necessary, then report offenders. We should all do this consistently.

Thank you Steve that is more helpful than folks know ...really.... and I know many are uncomfortable reporting folks but its better than all the quarreling that we find ourselves in sometimes

One way to also avoid these threads run amuck is to ask clarifying questions when it looks like a huge fight is ensuing.... I can help you all with that too if you want right here in this thread!

 

[visionary]

As I said no one should come here and teach against and condemn observances. If a believer comes here to discuss and doesn't teach against and condemn then what's the problem if they are Christian?

How about replacement theology? How deep can it go before it becomes anti-Torah? I know that "Israel".. "Jew" is well defended... but it is some others that real Jews defend because of traditionals defensive mechanism that RCC have taken advantage of... say Sunday vs Sabbath... which is Torah? Euchrist vs Passover Seder?? etc. You know, the ol' switcherooo... this for you, this for the Jew only preaching.