Messianic Judaism?

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks....and nice FONT! Gotta find that!

Bravo!! As you like to say, REAL

Where have you been on my life, Bro?!! Was just checking out your blog the other day and the ways you noted many can tend to fall more in love with Jewish Culture than the Jewish savior of the world - Yeshua - and miss the point of why he came.

Good to hear from ya and glad you're still around - alive and well

Seems like when the SoP was more in line with the MJAA(based on the MJAA)things were different. Not saying it was better or worse just an observation.

Whether it be with the MJAA or the UMJC and other groups where Messianic Judaism was directly connected in its beginnngs, I think that the only real difference was that there was more direct connection with other groups expliclty...but even with the one available now, it's still very much in line with it on multiple points - and as many in more mainstream groups have noted, those more so on the fringes of things will always have an issue with it if it remotely involves anything of Christians or Christianity to be promoted....but as said before, such thinking it's a good thing. And IMHO, it's downright unscriptural.

And as Brother Contra noted wisely years ago (07) when it came to similar situations arising:

'What this thread is actually about is power. A few people on this forum have always seen it as theirs alone to define. It's about the clique. The clique always drags the same old "so-and-so shouldn't post" thread out after every Easter or even Christmas. None of most vocal protesters speak from the point of view of mainstream MJism, incidentaly- yet, they are welcomed nonetheless, even when they are busy trying to rid the forum of those they fear.

There should be no witch hunt. This means certain people need to lay off the "who's in and who's out" baloney and try harder to accept others.

​

 

[Qnts2]

THAT'S the blasted loophole that some have grabbed ahold of. So they play church on Sat! Big deal! That does not make one Torah observant! Sheesh!!! But it allows traditional christians in here who have no love for Torah whatsoever, and those of us who do and those who come in here to learn about it are stuck being bombarded with mainstream videos, and hundreds upon hundreds of non-Torah links. That is shameful. It's downright dishonest!

While, I have thought that we need more description, that 'blasted loophole' in my view, is actually what makes this forum more in line with Messianic Judaism as a whole.

I'm not sure what you mean by playing church, as in my view, the order of a service is tradition, and not law. Therefore, we can change it. Some changes I will like and some I will dislike.

I expect to see a wide variety of opinions. The only things I say have no place on this forum are those things specifically renounced by Messianic Judaism. Which would be replacement theology, anti-semitism, anti-missionary arguments, Two House.

I am happy to see more Messianic Jews participating on the Messianic Judaism forum. Previously, most Messianic Jews were chased off the forum.

 

[FreeinChrist]

MOD HAT

That is enough. This thread has generated report after report. It is closed for review and I doubt it will be reopened.

 

[Tishri1]

I see we have some problems here, let me try and understand tell me if I am close to describing how you feel ok?......From what I see some MJ's here think the Torah teaching is being watered down and they dont want the forum to be just like any other Christian forum where there is no distinction of Torah obedience. These could even see it getting so bad that the fear is there that Torah will be meaningless at some point if its not addressed.

The other group is offended because they want all attempts at Torah observance to be acceptable and not put under the radar of judgement. They dont want their practices to be labled as subpar to any norm or even superior Torah practice, and the fear is there that they be told to remove their Icon if they dont live up to a certain level of acceptance

Both groups have a need lets see if we can give each of them some value and honor

Talk to me not to eachother and please dont quote and paste gobs of stuff written by someone else and add a.... I know thats tempting but let me hear your voice

I wanna know first if you are one of the two people groups i described above and how you want to solve this

Please be brief it helps me when you are consise and genuine

And please try not to point out others problems because what is important is your issue right now.

 

[yedida]

I see we have some problems here, let me try and understand tell me if I am close to describing how you feel ok?......From what I see some MJ's here think the Torah teaching is being watered down and they dont want the forum to be just like any other Christian forum where there is no distinction of Torah obedience. These could even see it getting so bad that the fear is there that Torah will be meaningless at some point if its not addressed.

The other group is offended because they want all attempts at Torah observance to be acceptable and not put under the radar of judgement. They dont want their practices to be labled as subpar to any norm or even superior Torah practice, and the fear is there that they be told to remove their Icon if they dont live up to a certain level of acceptance

Both groups have a need lets see if we can give each of them some value and honor

Talk to me not to eachother and please dont quote and paste gobs of stuff written by someone else and add a.... I know thats tempting but let me hear your voice

I wanna know first if you are one of the two people groups i described above and how you want to solve this

Please be brief it helps me when you are consise and genuine

And please try not to point out others problems because what is important is your issue right now.

I will be happy to start and say I'm of the first group. I can say more but first shouldn't we have a brand new thread? You think?

 

[Tishri1]

No this issues started here lets roll with it

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I see we have some problems here, let me try and understand tell me if I am close to describing how you feel ok?......From what I see some MJ's here think the Torah teaching is being watered down and they dont want the forum to be just like any other Christian forum where there is no distinction of Torah obedience. These could even see it getting so bad that the fear is there that Torah will be meaningless at some point if its not addressed.

The other group is offended because they want all attempts at Torah observance to be acceptable and not put under the radar of judgement. They dont want their practices to be labled as subpar to any norm or even superior Torah practice, and the fear is there that they be told to remove their Icon if they dont live up to a certain level of acceptance

Both groups have a need lets see if we can give each of them some value and honor

I'd say I'm with the second group as well as others who've already shared- not against Torah Observance (i.e. Celebrating Festivals, Shabbat/Sabbath being enjoyed, studying Jewish culture, seeing the Laws/Commands Christ called for and that the early Jewish community walked in, etc.) - but at the same time, understanding like many mainstream/founding groups of Messianic Judaism have noted that the Messianic Judaic movement was never meant to either be seperate from Christiantiy or in competition with it - or DENOUCNING/Deriding it and all who are Christians. I am in agreement with the Messianic Jewish groups talking on focusing on the Grace of God when it comes to Torah Observance/all on a differing level of journey and not waging war with the Church as if it's godly.....or allowing Anti-Christian ideology to be allowed as if it's Jewish since it's not and other leaders in Messianic Judaism have noted it.

There were multiple forums made/time and effort given to allow for diverse thought to occur - be it the Bridge Builders Forum or the All Things Torah - and the main one all post in was for fellowship/answering questions - regardless of whether or not all agree. That hasn't been done since all giving differing answers from their differing experiences often get at each other's throats - and it is said both here/elsewhere that Christianity is the problem/not to be promoted for those who are Messianics. That doesn't line up with what most Messianic Jews have noted and it's something that many in Jewish culture have been turned off by. Moreover, it doesn't line up with CF - and that's something that can be problematic.

I think it can be solved if others learn to get along - not by constantly telling others they're not "observant" enough on the boards - but by learning to disagree agreeably when seeing that there is diversity. I also think it can be solved when others aren't allowed to say things and the mods are effective in keeping others (more so from GT) from coming in/denouncing all things in Messianic Judaism or saying all things with Torah are pointless.

I think it can also be seriously solved by doing what is done on all other forums and seriously shutting down talks that basically say Christians are the enemies and that the Church doesn't serve the Jewish Messiah or that Christianity is a problem since that is something Messianic Jews have noted to be problematic - and it puts us at odds with the mission of CF in what they ask for site wide. Unless it is the case that the Messianic Judaism forum is something that is going to be exclusively be allowed to be blantantly against Christianity. Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles are Christians and that shouldn't be discouraged or belittled.

 

[yedida]

No this issues started here lets roll with it

Well, alright then. I'm of the first group. When we were hashing out examples with you and came up with the "different levels of Torah observance" it was taken for granted that all were observant to a degree.
Example: Biblically kosher, fully Rabbinically kosher, or somewhere in-between those two - BUT kosher to some degree.
We were not saying that those who love to chomp down on ham sandwiches were not welcome in here, just that this is not part of Torah-observance and should not be taught in here. There's a whole slew of congregational and faith areas these people can teach this, leave this one Torah observant.
There are other things but right now I'm having trouble thinking of the wording to use, so I'll wait for a bit.....

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No this issues started here lets roll with it

It really goes back to what was noted before with discussing the things that are appropriate for the forums. If others feel that eating something like shellfish is totally against what the Lord says, they can post more so in the "All Things Torah" forum with others who have the same mindset - but they should not be allowed to denoucne other Messianics/Jewish leaders in the Messianic organizations (i.e. MJAA, UMJC, IMJA, Tikkun, Ariel Ministries, First Fruits of Zion, etc.) that note that there are differences of opinion on what the food laws are for, when they apply and what the scriptures say for Messianics in Acts 15. There has always been historical discussion/debate amongst Jewish culture since the days of Christ when it comes to interpretation - and that is something that has to be honored, IMHO, if we're to honor who Yeshua is ...and what the apostles stood for.

They didn't wage war against the Church - nor did they wage war on Christians (seeing that they were also called such according to I Peter 4 and Acts 11) and it doesn't honor them for the same to be allowed so in the name of "observance of Torah."

If others feel that someone's too strict because they feel all Messianic believers should attend synagouge on Sabbath - whereas some feel (in their own study) that one should simply stay home and rest - and both are able to back it up/living out what they see from the scriptures - there can a simple recognition of differences and simply realizing what is. Don't allow others to say what can be demeaning to Jewish believers when saying "You're just Christian" or saying "True Observant Messianics don't do as Christians did" since that's not what most Messianics hold to anyhow - even though they differ from mainstream Christianity on multiple points. That would honor other Jewish believers in Messianic Judaism who have noted such authoratively for ages and keep us in line with the heart of Christian Forums.

In another example, if someone in their journey truly feels that they must wear a talit during service or a head covering, there's nothing wrong with acknowledging that and letting them agree with others who do so. Those who do not should not tell those people that they're just "legalists" for doing so - or that they need to not do that. For that's what they do in their own Messianic Jewish fellowship.

In the event that there's disagreement, just as the SoP notes, people can choose to simply walk away and agree to disagree agreeably - but there shouldn't be bickering or commentary allowed that attempts to insinuate others not agreeing them are not observing Torah/loving God's Law and studying it. That wouldn't be consistent with what is taught overall in Messianic Judaism as it is...and such cases have occurred before where others disagreed and things went well because they simply knew how to talk to one another .

Fellowship threads have been made multiple times in the fellowship forum and others have often enjoyed participation on it since it gives common ground - and that is something that makes a difference. If necessary, there's also the option of what was voted on long ago when it came to a variety of icons to identify others - such as what was discussed in the thread where a solution was reached.

 

[Yahudim]

Hi Tish,

Nutshell point of contention: Non-observance is not a level of Torah observance.

Whenever the subject of Messianic Judaism come up, certain members who claim to be Torah observant by virtue of the fact that they claim the scroll icon, continue to teach non-observance - especially to those coming here to inquire about Messianic Judaism. From the perspective of Torah observance in Messianic Judaism, it has always and will continue to always be more than mainstream Christian doctrine concerning 'the Law'. It is more that just keeping the Ten Commandments with special dispensation for those that want to observe Sabbath on Sunday. And the Torah observant in this forum are tired of getting shouted down and having to argue the same points time and again.

I thought that this was settled. I thought that this is what the new SOP was supposed to address. Not judging someone for keeping Kosher different than another, I can understand. Teaching newbies that Torah observance is not a tenet of Messianic Judaism is an entirely different matter. And in doing so, those that claim the scroll icon but are not Torah observant (counter to the SOP) and post extensive links to 'authoritative sources' that also denounce Torah observance, these 'Messianics' are seeking agreement from those that claim Christian icons too.

This is not what we voted on. It is not what we agreed to. But it is what we got. These are the same issues that we had before the new SOP.

 

[yedida]

Phil said it all in a nutshell, Tish. That's exactly what was and is happening. Some of these don't even fly a scroll!!!!

 

[Yahudim]

Second point of contention: Contending for Torah observance in a Torah observant forum is not attacking Christianity - Nor does the accusation sound like something that a Torah observant Messianic would say either.

 

[yedida]

That's right. But everytime one of us says something like that, we get bomblasted with reasons that we are wrong and wronging everyone else.
It becomes very disheartening. We'd like to fellowship here and be of help to those who are truly interested in learning about Messianic Judaism but we can't give any answers that don't get drowned in pages and pages of traditional Christianity churchese that is not Messianic Judaism.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No this issues started here lets roll with it

I think another issue that is to be considered is what Contra noted well earlier - and that's having a basis that's consistent to judge by for support. It does no sensible good talking on anything regarding Messianic Judaism/Torah observance when that which used to be a standard with the founders of Modern Messianic Judaism are not seen as the ones that are mirrored here. If the name is to be maintained, it needs to be walked out according to what's actually happening in the movement. In example, having a majority of people who are Sacred Namers/One Law (i.e. Gentiles must live as Jews to be considered observing the Torah ) is something that the large marjority of Messianic Jews have all stood against and noted via scripture/Biblical history that it is not how Jewish believers see Gentiles.

If a forum claims it is about Torah Observance in the name of Mesianic Judaism, it needs to stay in step with the movement that began it - and as those in Sacred Namers/One Law groups have been spoken against, it is honorable to walk in line with that. Others who disagree have freedom to do so - but it doesn't mean that there should be freedom to demand that all others adhere to that in order to fit their own views of observance. Again, that would not be consistent with Messianic Jewish practice/lifestyle. If/when it occurs and it's demanded that others feel like they're left out, it should be realized that the reasons why are because they have long stepped out of synch with what actually happens in the Messianic Jewish world - and others end up living out a Messianic Judaism other than that which is actually practiced/noted by real Messianic Jews. It's no different than politics where you don't go with a majority rule simply because a majority is present. You go by the laws/standards of the land you live in.

If there is not a central standard or organization - namely those leading the movement thus far - by which to go by, there's logically no point in having conversation on who is or isn't observant. It'd ultimately come down to an issue of favoritism where others were allowed because they were the most vocal in saying "They're not Observant!!" while others were judged based on their level of observance differing from those of a few.

 

[Steve Petersen]

I can't find the rules anymore. Someone got a link? I will put them on my desktop, post them when necessary, then report offenders. We should all do this consistently.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Talk to me not to each other

An ultimate solution for that would be to simply make another main forum with sub-forums just like this one for posters that would actually match what it is that they reflect more accurately since all of the other Messianic Jewish organizations/leadership of the Jewish world are routinely dismissed for the desires of a few - and that is something other Messianic Jews here have suggested.

If others are involved in Messianic Fellowships/Synagouges which adhere more so to traditional Messianic Judaism in the Mainstream - the kind others have tended to deem as either too "supporative of the Church" or in agreement with Mainstream Christiantiy - then perhaps a place could be made for them on that. It'd allow for discussion from Messianic Jewish leaderships that've been brought up before on the forum multiple time and give room for others to share their own thoughts on Messianic Judaism in the traditional view - a view that says it is Jewish Chrisitanity (counter to mainstream Christiantiy which is Gentile Focused) and meant for outreach for Jews.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Originally Posted by Tishri1

Talk to me not to each other
​

For others involved in circles that were never accepted by mainstream Messianic Judaism/its stances and that may feel they have a significant majority in their view - be it here or on other forums where they've complained on it (i.e. those claiming that Christiantiy is anti-semitic at it's core for the most part, those claiming CHrisianity was a political tool, those claiming Churches today do not support the Torah/walk it out or feel they observe it more so than others, those claming that Torah in Mosaic Code was meant for mandatory observance by Gentiles and Jews, those saying Christians don't know Christ, etc.) - a forum can be made for them where they have freedom to express their own thoughts.

Others have often suggested that they do not care if their own views don't line up with traditional Messianic Judaism - even going so far as to say they're fine being called "herectics" by Jewish believers since they claim there are parts of the movement evolving to look different than the mainstream.

In the event that another forum cannot be made, it may be best to simply suggest others use others forums abroad more to their liking. Everyone here is already aware of how there are other forums that were made expliclty by members for that purpose since CF was not in agreeement with certain things expressed here - and the latter group you mentioned has noted that they are more in line with the spirit of CF than the former when it comes to commentary.

For those wishing to give answers, there has to be a recognition that the answers they give are not - and cannot - ever be considered as the only ones Messianic Jews have ever advocated - and that's really what much of the battles come down to. Who gets to give the answers. I think the set up that is currently present with the MJ Statement Of Purpose (new) we have and the boundaries given allows for the most expression of Messianic Judaism and the most consistency/complimentary action with what CF has asked directly for in adhering to in House Rules for every Faith Group forum/ site wide rules such as:

• The Nicene Creed
• Advocating for the Church
• Supporting Mainstream Christianity

If that cannot be done, it simply opens the door for consistent inconsistency. We cannot on this forum do otherwise and say that we really are in agreement with the rules that are enforced in other Faith Groups when it comes to Christianity being promoted overall. And unless it is planned to have the forum be one that is set unto itself/held above the standard for all others, it wouldn't seem right.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

No this issues started here lets roll with it

I think the latter group you noted is concerned on how they want to have consistency with Observant Messianic Jews/Judaism as it has been - and not use the name of the movement if we're not going to really show concern for what is actually being said in it.

Other Messianic Jews have often noted how they were driven away largely by other Gentiles who were continually fusing over them not being "observant" enough to their own liking - much of it seeming like a devaluing of Jewish believers in general. And other Jewish believers have noted they would like to fellowship - but cannot when every answer given has to be followed up with others giving repeated "rebukes" and denouncements from others who decided to believe that Jewish people were never following Torah as Christians....or that believe all Jewish people fit a formula when it comes to living out the Law of GOD/serving Yeshua. The same goes for choosing to raise fuss over not agreeing with the answers another Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile gives.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Good grief. Paralysis by analysis.

 

[yedida]

And so it goes