I'm through with CAF

[Brooklyn Knight]

Even these would not be mortal if the person doing them didn't know they were wrong or didn't intend to do them.

Although admittedly, murder and rape are pretty hard to not have all three conditions.

As a refresher, the conditions which must be met for a sin to be mortal are:

1. Grave matter.
2. Knowledge of it being grave matter.
3. Doing it with full consent of the will.

Why are you giving me a refresher?

The only way either of these could be remotely excusable is if a person has serious mental deficiencies.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

A mentally ill person could possibly commit any or all of those actions, thousands of times over, and have no mortal sin on their conscience.

I believe we can tell when a person has and does not have mental deficiencies.

 

[MikeK]

I believe we can tell when a person has and does not have mental deficiencies.

A professional could make an educated guess, but not know with certainty. The Lord knows who is culpable for which sins. No human does.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

A professional could make an educated guess, but not know with certainty. The Lord knows who is culpable for which sins. No human does.

With all due respect..baloney.

In that case, priests guilty of pedophilia should get some slack from the fellow community because they have a screw loose. They committed no mortal sin.

You can certainly distinguish between someone like that and the person who talks to themselves, the lamp pole scratcher, someone who is autistic, someone with down's syndrome, someone who is mentally challenged, etc.

 

[Tallguy88]

Why are you giving me a refresher?

The only way either of these could be remotely excusable is if a person has serious mental deficiencies.

Because you made a post implying that certain sins we're always mortal. I was saying that if not all conditions were met, then they would not be mortal. They might get you ten thousand years in purgatory, but wouldn't cause you to go to hell.

And the refresher wasn't directed at you specifically. I just thought it needed to be laid out given the course this thread has taken.

 

[Brooklyn Knight]

Because you made a post implying that certain sins we're always mortal. I was saying that if not all conditions were met, then they would not be mortal. They might get you ten thousand years in purgatory, but wouldn't cause you to go to hell.

With all due respect, there are people ignorant of Catholic teaching. With that said, that does not absolve them from committing said sins.

 

[MoreCoffee]

MKJ is not denying that mortal sin exists, she is (correctly) arguing against saying that action X is a mortal sin, or that people who commit action X have committed a mortal sin. None of us can know when another person has committed a mortal sin.

I understood that and I think MKJ was suggesting that it is impossible to identify a case of mortal sin because of the requirement of full knowledge, full freedom, and full intent to sin when one commits a mortal sin. My response was to show that at least one NT writer believed that one can identify a mortal sin. That is what the passage I quoted from suggests.

 

[Tallguy88]

With all due respect, there are people ignorant of Catholic teaching. With that said, that does not absolve them from committing said sins.

One doesn't have to hear it from a catholic source to know its wrong. Many things are written on the heart. A sort of universal code of ethics. So, yes they would likely be guilty of mortal sin if they "had a feeling" it was wrong and did it anyway.

 

[AMDG]

One doesn't have to hear it from a catholic source to know its wrong. Many things are written on the heart. A sort of universal code of ethics. So, yes they would likely be guilty of mortal sin if they "had a feeling" it was wrong and did it anyway.

True, but many have silenced that voice of conscience (some have even killed it.) Even many will say "I'm just following my conscience like it says in the CCC." But they fail to mention that the Church says that one's conscience must conform with the Church. So maybe it is good to just hear what the Church says (just to make sure we "have it right").

 

[MikeK]

With all due respect..baloney.

In that case, priests guilty of pedophilia should get some slack from the fellow community because they have a screw loose. They committed no mortal sin.

With all due respect...baloney. I don't know which Priests that are guilty of molesting children are have a mortal sin on their conscience...that doesn't mean they should "get some slack" as far as being in a position to repeat their crime. Maybe God will judge them harshly and maybe He won't, but we have a duty to protect God's children from such men, sane or not, mortal sinners or not.

You can certainly distinguish between someone like that and the person who talks to themselves, the lamp pole scratcher, someone who is autistic, someone with down's syndrome, someone who is mentally challenged, etc.

In many cases you can - but you cannot know exactly what was going on in a person's head at the time he committed a grave evil, and you cannot say with certainty whether he was free to act otherwise. You can have your suspicions or your educated assumptions based on your observations or even the person's sworn, seemingly damning testimony, but you cannot know a persin's culpability, and you are walking on rather thin ice if you believe otherwise. Padre Pio might have had a pretty good chance of getting it right, but we would be well advised to reserve such judgements for God.

 

[Tallguy88]

True, but many have silenced that voice of conscience (some have even killed it.) Even many will say "I'm just following my conscience like it says in the CCC." But they fail to mention that the Church says that one's conscience must conform with the Church. So maybe it is good to just hear what the Church says (just to make sure we "have it right").

Right you are. I'm not saying we should follow our consciences blindly. Rather, I was referring to those who know little of faith or were brought up according to society's morals. We should help to educate them and form their consciences properly.

 

[Tallguy88]

I think we might be talking past each other a bit. I would agree that certain sins, like rape, are pretty well impossible to not be mortal in all cases, excepting insanity.

At the same time, my point, and i believe MKJs, is that for more "mundane" sins, it can be difficult to ascertain whether a sin met all conditions to be mortal. And it would be presumptive to try to say that, for example, lying is a mortal sim every time.

 

[Fran75]

I think we can all be grateful that God is responsible for our final judgment, not our fellow man.
I have alway felt that if I or any one else is condemned by our Lord to be separated from him for eternity it is because I or whoever else truly deserves it and not on a technicality. Life on earth may not be fair but I am confident our Lord truly knows our hearts and will judge us fairly.

 

[MKJ]

I understood that and I think MKJ was suggesting that it is impossible to identify a case of mortal sin because of the requirement of full knowledge, full freedom, and full intent to sin when one commits a mortal sin. My response was to show that at least one NT writer believed that one can identify a mortal sin. That is what the passage I quoted from suggests.

I don't think that is quite what that passage implies. It is different to say that there is such a thing as a mortal sin, we know they really exist, than it is to say that we can identify for certain whether any particular instance of sin is mortal or not.

So we can say "murder can be a mortal sin and sometimes (often?) is" but not be able to say definitively that this particular murder is a mortal sin.

 

[MKJ]

Even these would not be mortal if the person doing them didn't know they were wrong or didn't intend to do them. Although admittedly, murder and rape are pretty hard to not have all three conditions.

As a refresher, the conditions which must be met for a sin to be mortal are:

1. Grave matter.
2. Knowledge of it being grave matter.
3. Doing it with full consent of the will.

Well, full consent of the will is actually pretty tricky, potentially. Because we suffer from concupiscence, we don't actually have full control of our bodies and minds on all occasions, even if we aren't crazy. And what we understand as being grave can be very susceptible to what we see around us - people become very quickly used to new norms of behavior which is why it is so easy to get really immoral group behavior in certain types of closed groups.

It is very had to say to what degree such things impact knowledge and consent. Anyone who has ever tried to diet or break a bad habit knows that consent is not always simple.

 

[Tallguy88]

Well, full consent of the will is actually pretty tricky, potentially. Because we suffer from concupiscence, we don't actually have full control of our bodies and minds on all occasions, even if we aren't crazy. And what we understand as being grave can be very susceptible to what we see around us - people become very quickly used to new norms of behavior which is why it is so easy to get really immoral group behavior in certain types of closed groups.

It is very had to say to what degree such things impact knowledge and consent. Anyone who has ever tried to diet or break a bad habit knows that consent is not always simple.

I agree with the bad habit part. There's one habit I can't kick, no matter how hard I want to.

 

[AMDG]

Many Protestants call that "besetting sins".

 

[MikeK]

I agree with the bad habit part. There's one habit I can't kick, no matter how hard I want to.

Keep trying your humble best and praying. Comfort yourself with the Church's statements indicating that habit and addiction can reduce or even eliminate a person's culpability for their actions. You would do well to seek out a competent spiritual advisor if you have not.

 

[Tallguy88]

Keep trying your humble best and praying. Comfort yourself with the Church's statements indicating that habit and addiction can reduce or even eliminate a person's culpability for their actions. You would do well to seek out a competent spiritual advisor if you have not.

I just confess it every time I go to mass. And pray too of course. I just dont feel qualified to say I have reduced culpability so I ere on the safe side.

 

[Tallguy88]

Many Protestants call that "besetting sins".

I'm unfamiliar with that term.