To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[Frogster]

In other news, apparently you can see right into the hearts of people by looking at what make and model of car they drive. Who knew? I mean, you'd think it would require some more analysis than that, but nope. Just take a look in the driveway and it's like you're staring right into that person's heart.

Allrighty then.

conjunction was handily proved.

 

[Svt4Him]

is this the best u got to rebutt with after all i posted?

reute my text please.

Already done bud.

 

[Frogster]

not really.

 

[probinson]

Again how silly, because you've failed to address the issue. You are in effect saying that unless you have a bmw or mansion, you can't be greedy, this is false, but the sillyness doesn't stop there. What about an iPhone? Computer? Internet? Car? House with a floor that's not dirt?

Actually there's really no getting through is there? Good thing none of my seventeen motorcycles are BMW's then, only Harleys, cause then I'm not greedy.

I'm glad someone else sees the silliness of Pinetree's position.

 

[probinson]

dude, out of the heart floweth the masnsions and beemers!

That's the second scripture you've changed today. You'd think if your position was as rock solid as you mistakenly believe it is, you'd be able to prove your point with actual scripture, and not twisted, or more accurately, changed text.

Jesus said out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. You say that mansions and Beemers come from the heart. Hmmm. Should I believe "the frog" (who won't even be honest about his true identity) or Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Tough call. I think I'll go with Jesus.

What is within, is seen in the externals, as per isarael, and the clear text the frog posted.

You don't even seem to care that your position is consistent with that of the Pharisees and completely contrary to what Jesus said. The Pharisees were concerned with the outside of the cup, or the "externals" if you prefer. But Jesus said that the outside of the cup is no indicator of what's inside.

alrighty now, lets move on to Paul for themost part working not to burden the social security people, and the younger guy raisng a family, who fit nto the exemption clause of 2 cor 8, in THE TEXT.

You do amuse me, Pinetree. If you actually understood "the text" half as much as you talk about "the text", I think you and I would agree quite a bit more.

I am letting u off the hook by changing the subject, because i like u.

How big of you. As if I was on some big hook with the incoherent nonsense you were posting.

 

[Always in His Presence]

Again how silly, because you've failed to address the issue. You are in effect saying that unless you have a bmw or mansion, you can't be greedy, this is false, but the sillyness doesn't stop there. What about an iPhone? Computer? Internet? Car? House with a floor that's not dirt?

Actually there's really no getting through is there? Good thing none of my seventeen motorcycles are BMW's then, only Harleys, cause then I'm not greedy.

Good response, but I think your wisdom is falling on deaf ears - it is why I placed him on ignore - that and the other fact Pete brought up.

 

[GaryArnold]

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." If you believe this is true, then what a person says is indicative of what is in the abundance of their heart.

IOW, if you'll listen to what people say, over time you'll be able to evaluate what their heart is set upon.

And if over time they keep asking the poor to give to them, so that they may have the material things they want, just what does this tell you about the heart?

Is a heart good and in order that wants to take from the poor?

Is a heart good that takes scripture out of context, change it, add to it, subtract from it, and then manipulate people to hand over their money?

These wolves in sheep clothing have exposed themselves to me.

 

[Frogster]

That's the second scripture you've changed today. You'd think if your position was as rock solid as you mistakenly believe it is, you'd be able to prove your point with actual scripture, and not twisted, or more accurately, changed text.

Jesus said out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. You say that mansions and Beemers come from the heart. Hmmm. Should I believe "the frog" (who won't even be honest about his true identity) or Jesus Christ, King of Kings and Lord of Lords. Tough call. I think I'll go with Jesus.



You don't even seem to care that your position is consistent with that of the Pharisees and completely contrary to what Jesus said. The Pharisees were concerned with the outside of the cup, or the "externals" if you prefer. But Jesus said that the outside of the cup is no indicator of what's inside.





You do amuse me, Pinetree. If you actually understood "the text" half as much as you talk about "the text", I think you and I would agree quite a bit more.



How big of you. As if I was on some big hook with the incoherent nonsense you were posting.

yeah yeah..show me what post that had text, that i used, did not show the connection of the inner world to the outter.

go ahead, just a simple quote, that proves my use of the text wrong.

 

[Svt4Him]

And if over time they keep asking the poor to give to them, so that they may have the material things they want, just what does this tell you about the heart?

Is a heart good and in order that wants to take from the poor?

Is a heart good that takes scripture out of context, change it, add to it, subtract from it, and then manipulate people to hand over their money?

These wolves in sheep clothing have exposed themselves to me.

I know someone who believes in tithing so much that they preach it to everyone. I think they are wrong and I've posted why I think that, but they still believe it. They don't differentiate the poor from the rich, everyone should tithe. According to you, their heart is bad? I'd also suggest that you have doctrine that is wrong, at least according to God who says we know in part, so if you say they're bad because they have bad (IMO) doctrine, what does it say about your heart since you have bad doctrine?

They really believe you are robbing God and that if you sow you'll reap. Seems they're not too far off, although a bit.

Then there's those like the guy giving away free holy water, Robert Gibson Tilton, who are false preachers, only preaching Christ for gain, but that is something totally different, again in my opinion.

 

[Svt4Him]

I'm glad someone else sees the silliness of Pinetree's position.

I'm a brain surgeon!!!


j/k...

 

[GaryArnold]

I know someone who believes in tithing so much that they preach it to everyone. I think they are wrong and I've posted why I think that, but they still believe it. They don't differentiate the poor from the rich, everyone should tithe. According to you, their heart is bad? I'd also suggest that you have doctrine that is wrong, at least according to God who says we know in part, so if you say they're bad because they have bad (IMO) doctrine, what does it say about your heart since you have bad doctrine?

They really believe you are robbing God and that if you sow you'll reap. Seems they're not too far off, although a bit.

Then there's those like the guy giving away free holy water, Robert Gibson Tilton, who are false preachers, only preaching Christ for gain, but that is something totally different, again in my opinion.

And what do you say about the person who goes on a killing spree believing that God told him to do it. Does he have a bad heart?

Good intentions don't justify false teaching. Good intentions don't justify taking from the poor. Even if the pastor has a good heart, IF he is taking from those who have less than himself, he is greedy. It's not just a heart issue.

 

[Messy]

And what do you say about the person who goes on a killing spree believing that God told him to do it. Does he have a bad heart?

Good intentions don't justify false teaching. Good intentions don't justify taking from the poor. Even if the pastor has a good heart, IF he is taking from those who have less than himself, he is greedy. It's not just a heart issue.

He should not be taking from people who have less than him. Eat what they give you, Jesus said to his disciples. If poor people give to a wealthy pastor because they feel obliged by bad preaching, it's not good. If they have on their heart to give him anyway, it's their decision. I shouldn't do it.
But let's all check our own heart. Is it normal that our brothers in poor countries have nothing? Compared to them I'm just like the megachurch BMW driving pastor compared to someone with a small house and a small income and a bike. Let's all not be like the rich man giving nothing to Lazarus. This is what you see in the world, the government of Holland is giving less to poor countries. Christians have to be different.

 

[probinson]

Good intentions don't justify false teaching. Good intentions don't justify taking from the poor. Even if the pastor has a good heart, IF he is taking from those who have less than himself, he is greedy. It's not just a heart issue.

Don't you realize how self-focused and formulaic your teaching on giving has become? You're suggesting that before you give, you should first look at what you have and decide whether or not to give based upon whether or not someone has more or less than you.

Just like with legalistic tithing, all that is required in such giving is basic math skills. With the legalistic tithe, all you need to know is how to move a decimal point one place to the left. With what your suggesting, all you need to understand are the simple concepts of 'greater than' and 'less than'.

I'm curious... why do you think Jesus commended this widow?

Luke 21:1-4 (NIV)
Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
​

Earlier in this thread, you said this about poor people giving;

"The answer is in the scriptures. IF, after taking care of their own needs, and the needs of their family, they have anything left over, they may want to consider giving a portion of what is left over."
​

Yet here we have a woman who gave out of her poverty, and put in ALL she had to live on. This is contrary to what you say she should have done 'according to scripture'; you apparently believe that she should have first taken care of herself and then if she had anything left over after meeting her own needs, she might want to consider giving a portion of what was left over. You called giving where there is not a need "being a poor steward" in the next post.

But Jesus didn't call this "being a poor steward", nor did He tell her she should keep her money for herself to meet her own needs. To the contrary, He commended her for giving her ALL. There's a lesson here for people who think we ought to strive to take care of our own needs first and then only maybe give a portion of what's left over.

The fact is, Jesus commended this widow for her giving that I'm all but certain some people in this thread would consider reckless and irresponsible, which goes to show me that all of this self-centered teaching on meeting one's own needs before considering giving isn't quite what Jesus had in mind.

 

[Frogster]

Don't you realize how self-focused and formulaic your teaching on giving has become? You're suggesting that before you give, you should first look at what you have and decide whether or not to give based upon whether or not someone has more or less than you.

Just like with legalistic tithing, all that is required in such giving is basic math skills. With the legalistic tithe, all you need to know is how to move a decimal point one place to the left. With what your suggesting, all you need to understand are the simple concepts of 'greater than' and 'less than'.

I'm curious... why do you think Jesus commended this widow?

Luke 21:1-4 (NIV)
Jesus looked up, he saw the rich putting their gifts into the temple treasury. He also saw a poor widow put in two very small copper coins. “Truly I tell you,” he said, “this poor widow has put in more than all the others. All these people gave their gifts out of their wealth; but she out of her poverty put in all she had to live on.”
​

Earlier in this thread, you said this about poor people giving;

"The answer is in the scriptures. IF, after taking care of their own needs, and the needs of their family, they have anything left over, they may want to consider giving a portion of what is left over."
​

Yet here we have a woman who gave out of her poverty, and put in ALL she had to live on. This is contrary to what you say she should have done 'according to scripture'; you apparently believe that she should have first taken care of herself and then if she had anything left over after meeting her own needs, she might want to consider giving a portion of what was left over. You called giving where there is not a need "being a poor steward" in the next post.

But Jesus didn't call this "being a poor steward", nor did He tell her she should keep her money for herself to meet her own needs. To the contrary, He commended her for giving her ALL. There's a lesson here for people who think we ought to strive to take care of our own needs first and then only maybe give a portion of what's left over.

The fact is, Jesus commended this widow for her giving that I'm all but certain some people in this thread would consider reckless and irresponsible, which goes to show me that all of this self-centered teaching on meeting one's own needs before considering giving isn't quite what Jesus had in mind.

i only wish we would apply the widow story to pastors also. besides, it was a freewill offering to the temple, to a properly ordained place, wasn't it? it was not to a beemer pastor.

But in 2 cor 8, paul said don't give, if one does not have, that would be poor people, and he told em give out of their ubundance...

u critique Garyarnold, but he has posted sooo many facts, and texts, but in all fairness, you have very little texts in your posts, compared to his facts, and me texts, with all due respect i say that.

 

[BeforeThereWas]

Hmmm. What image comes to mind when you say "take someone to the wood shed"? Those were your words, which were clearly intended to paint a picture. You also referenced how God struck people dead who had good intentions. The entire crux of your post was that if you do things with good intentions but not the way God wants you to, He'll take you to the wood shed, and he might even KILL you! But that was a nice attempt to try to make it sound like I was the one who took it to an extreme. I'll also give you an "A" for effort.

Quite simply, that imagry was intended only to drive home the fact that good intentions never force God's acceptance of what is against His express or commanded will.

You're the only one who stated any form of mistakenly assuming my words to mean that inappropriate giving leads to those outcomes.

Whether you accept my explanation to the contrary is really of no real conern to me because I'm naturally suspicious of those who refuse to accept the clarifications offered. You didn't, so I'm left with only assuming the reasons why.

Some people are simply hell-bent on continuing an imbalanced rhetoric in favor of extremes, even after being told that such was not the intent. I don't share in manic fascination with misrepresentation after clarifications have been offered in good faith to the contrary.

Enjoy your rants with others. I don't have the typing time to play tit-for-tat with you.

Blessings to you and yours.

BTW

 

[probinson]

Quite simply, that imagry was intended only to drive home the fact that good intentions never force God's acceptance of what is against His express or commanded will.

You're the only one who stated any form of mistakenly assuming my words to mean that inappropriate giving leads to those outcomes.

Am I? I'm the only one that responded, but the imagery you used of God striking people dead who had good intentions and then saying that we shouldn't be surprised to get "taken out to the wood shed" if our good intentions are "counter to God's way shown in scripture" was quite vivid. I can't believe I'm the only one who "mistakenly" drew the wrong conclusion.

So if you don't think God will take us to the "wood shed" and/or strike us dead, then what do you think is the outcome of "inappropriate giving"?

Whether you accept my explanation to the contrary is really of no real conern to me because I'm naturally suspicious of those who refuse to accept the clarifications offered. You didn't, so I'm left with only assuming the reasons why.

Then we have something in common, because I'm left with only assuming the reasons why when you chose to use such vivid imagery to convey your point that you're now backtracking and trying to say that I was the one taking things to extremes when you're the one that used the imagery in the first place.

Some people are simply hell-bent on continuing an imbalanced rhetoric in favor of extremes, even after being told that such was not the intent. I don't share in manic fascination with misrepresentation after clarifications have been offered in good faith to the contrary.

Neither do I. I guess I'll just remember that you're apparently not very good at using "imagery" to portray what it is that you're really trying to say, because "...good intentions never force God's acceptance of what is against His express or commanded will..." is a far cry from God striking people dead and/or taking them to the wood shed for their good intentions.

Enjoy your rants with others.

Likewise. I've found that I can expand my vocabulary exponentially by reading your rants against the church.

 

[probinson]

i only wish we would apply the widow story to pastors also.

I'm sure you do. You're not a big proponent of examining oneself; you are, however, a huge proponent of pointing the finger at everyone else. So I'm not the least bit surprised to see you completely miss Jesus' lesson in giving here.

besides, it was a freewill offering to the temple, to a properly ordained place, wasn't it? it was not to a beemer pastor.

How in the world is that any different than someone giving a freewill offering today? The "fact" from the "text" (which record the words of Jesus) is that this woman gave out of her poverty. You can gloss over that all you like, but the fact is Jesus commended this widow giving out of her poverty.

But in 2 cor 8, paul said don't give, if one does not have, that would be poor people, and he told em give out of their ubundance...

You find yourself in the unenviable position of suggesting that Jesus was wrong in commending the widow for her giving and Paul was right saying that people shouldn't give if they don't have it. Good luck with that.

u critique Garyarnold, but he has posted sooo many facts, and texts, but in all fairness, you have very little texts in your posts, compared to his facts, and me texts, with all due respect i say that.

This is your weakest argument by far, Pinetree.

Posting "text" proves nothing more than one knows how to use a Bible search engine to search for keywords and how to use the copy/paste functionality of their operating system. It might impress you to see scads of "text" in posts, but it doesn't impress me much. Besides, I've learned that when I post "text" in conversations with you, you just completely ignore it.

 

[probinson]

yeah yeah..show me what post that had text, that i used, did not show the connection of the inner world to the outter.

This is just more empty nonsense, Pinetree. I can't answer nonsensical questions that have no basis in logic or reality. Sorry.

 

[probinson]

And if over time they keep asking the poor to give to them, so that they may have the material things they want, just what does this tell you about the heart?

Is a heart good and in order that wants to take from the poor?

Is a heart good that takes scripture out of context, change it, add to it, subtract from it, and then manipulate people to hand over their money?

None of these 3 questions can be answered unless you look at the intent, or more accurately, the heart.

Your first question says, "...so that they may have the material things they want..." This presumes to know that the intent for asking the poor to give is so that they can get material things for themselves.

Your second question says, "...wants to take from the poor". Again, this assumes a desire, an intent to take money from poor for their own personal gain.

Your third question says, "...takes scripture out of context, change it, add to it, subtract from it, and then manipulate people to hand over their money". And yet again, this presumes a concerted intent to deceive and manipulate people for personal gain.

As I said earlier in the thread, I disagree with my pastor concerning tithing, but I know beyond doubt that his intent is not to deceive and manipulate people into giving money to him so that he can gain personally. He sincerely and truly believes that tithing is something God requires of us and is non-negotiable. He not only preaches this to others, but he lives by it as well. His intent is not to take from others for his own personal benefit.

In short, your questions employ circular logic; you are suggesting that by knowing the heart, you can know the heart.

What I am suggesting is consistent with what Jesus said; if you listen to the words that come out of people's mouths, it will show what is in the abundance of their heart. Even someone who says one thing and does another will eventually be betrayed by their own words, because out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks.

 

[Svt4Him]

And what do you say about the person who goes on a killing spree believing that God told him to do it. Does he have a bad heart?

Good intentions don't justify false teaching. Good intentions don't justify taking from the poor. Even if the pastor has a good heart, IF he is taking from those who have less than himself, he is greedy. It's not just a heart issue.

Totally different case here, and Pete addressed many things already. The idea of tithing is a misunderstood one, as evidenced by the fact that the majority of people who voted believe in it. Tell me, are they all bad? To go on a killing spree, in the name of God, is something Jesus already discussed, so I don't really feel I need to address if further.