To tithe, or not to tithe. That is the question!

[probinson]

Oh, P. That was pretty good. LOL. I liked how you carried my statements to an extreme, "...to beat the ever living snot out of us...," which carried it into a realm having nothing to do with what I was saying.

Hmmm. What image comes to mind when you say "take someone to the wood shed"? Those were your words, which were clearly intended to paint a picture. You also referenced how God struck people dead who had good intentions. The entire crux of your post was that if you do things with good intentions but not the way God wants you to, He'll take you to the wood shed, and he might even KILL you! But that was a nice attempt to try to make it sound like I was the one who took it to an extreme. I'll also give you an "A" for effort.

The way you threw that out there with cavalier indifference brings to mind that you may have been greatly abused as a child. You have my sympathies.

Um, no. I was not abused at all. I had very loving parents, who raised me up right and who have been happily married for 51 years now. Just one more thing you've gotten wrong.

The wood shed thing was an aside, not central to following some religious formula in the vein of legalism.

I don't know how well you've read my posts as a whole (which appears to be very little)

Let me just say that I've read your posts as a whole, and your primary objective seems to be to see how many different disparaging adjectives you can pack into a single post.

, but I'll repeat what I've said before:

For me, the crux of all this is the priorities we as believers establish in our giving. Many people place the needs of a dead building and its expenditures before and above the needs of people.

Let me stop you there; not all churches are "dead buildings". You have said that you have no disdain for churches earlier in this thread, but the way you rail on organized churches makes it quite clear that you have a serious beef with people meeting in a building on a weekly basis and consider it useless. We disagree here entirely. The church I have attended almost all of my life is not by any means "dead".

That may not be a problem to you personally, and it certainly isn't a problem to the vast majority of church-goers, but it wreaks of a heart-set and spiritual condition that's become greatly calloused with indifference.

Um, that's quite a leap.

Now, keep in mind I'm not at this point talking about tithing versus non-tithing. I'm forcusing on priorities in simply giving.

Not really. You're railing on people for not falling in lock-step with what you have decided is the only acceptable "priority" in giving.

Tithing comes into the picture because of the historic perception about the paradigm behind that term. That paradigm mostly defines a "tithe" as the portion handed over to institutionalized religion for its own expenditures, from which the so-called "giver" reaps direct benefit. Anything else the religious people give to other organizations is classified as "charitable."

That's completely backwards. It stabs at intellectual honesty with the hot poker of indifference to what should be important to anyone whose heart is truly set upon the Lord Jesus.

I've gathered from your posts that what's most important to you is disparaging those who disagree with you.

Jesus didn't tithe. Peter didn't tithe. Matthew didn't tithe. James didn't tithe. Paul didn't tithe. None of them are said to have owned anything that falls under the definition of the tithe, but many people operate under the assumption they did, which makes it much easier for them to go along with the false assumption that the tithe predates the Law, and is therefore something that should be handed over to institutionalized religion first and foremost as the prime consideration in giving...which makes no sense at all.

The cumulative whole from all the many, many misconceptions stinks to high Heaven because of the resulting falsehoods that enjoy historic support, as if antiquity behind various beliefs is the only test for TRUTH needed.

Granted: Most people's ability to think critically has been greatly erroded by our modern climate of progressively increasing subjectivity in all things. Various circles of so-called "Christians" have long since embraced perversions, and thus calling evil good, and good evil. Historic falsehoods find only that much more support in such a climate, considering how lazy most people are when it comes to actually reading scripture for what is stated. Most people habitually fail to read verses in context.....that requires too much effort.

Theological tapestries woven together from verses ripped from their contexts is much more fun than to meditate quietly upon the fullness therein.

Um, wow.

Well then all I can say is keep on ranting and raving. You're obviously convinced that you're absolutely right and have superior intellect over those who don't quite see things your way.

 

[GaryArnold]

Here's an example of a greedy pastor - One who takes money from those who can't afford a car and uses that money to buy a luxury car for himself.

Another example - One who takes money from those who are worse off than himself. In other words, one who raises his standard of living at the expense of those living a lower standard of living. AND DOING IT BY MANIPULATING PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE GIVING IT TO GOD!!!!!

Now please tell me - where is the PASTOR'S heart when he takes from those who have less than he has?

 

[probinson]

Here's an example of a greedy pastor - One who takes money from those who can't afford a car and uses that money to buy a luxury car for himself.

Another example - One who takes money from those who are worse off than himself. In other words, one who raises his standard of living at the expense of those living a lower standard of living. AND DOING IT BY MANIPULATING PEOPLE INTO BELIEVING THEY ARE GIVING IT TO GOD!!!!!

Now please tell me - where is the PASTOR'S heart when he takes from those who have less than he has?

If a person is a pastor for the sole purpose of making money and raising his standard of living, then I would agree with you that his heart is exhibiting greed.

But what I am saying is that a pastor driving a luxury car is not necessarily indicative of greed in and of itself. You can't just look at someone's car and determine if they are greedy, which is what some people are suggesting.

 

[probinson]

but i proved the connection of the inner world, to the outter, just like Jesus used the possesions with the greed. U r wrong.

Actually, the "text" you posted proved exactly what I was saying. So thank you for that.

does the heart often get manifested in the external world?

Yep. "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks". These are the words of Jesus. I don't know why you're arguing that it's not so.

how can u act like it doesn't?

You're either being intentionally dishonest, or you lack the ability to comprehend what I've said. I'm not sure which.

I have said that we can evaluate "greed". I disagree with you on how it should be evaluated. You think that looking at what kind of car someone drives is a good indicator of greed. I think listening to what they say and how they act is a good indicator of greed. You want to look at the surface. I want to look inside.

 

[GaryArnold]

If a person is a pastor for the sole purpose of making money and raising his standard of living, then I would agree with you that his heart is exhibiting greed.

If a person is a pastor for the sole reason that God called him to be a pastor, he is still GREEDY if he takes from those who have less than he does. Period.

The New Testament is very clear that we are to give WHERE THERE IS A NEED. It makes no more sense to give to a pastor who has more than you do than to give to a neighbor that has no more than you do.

Giving to someone who has more than you do shows very poor stewardship. You should be giving to someone who has LESS than you do, and ONLY IF they are in need of help. I'm not saying you should NEVER give to someone who has more than you. I am saying your major giving should be to those in need, NOT to someone who has more than you, and NOT to finance a building, etc.

Organized corporations doing business as, and disguised as, a church have blinded the majority of church goers.

 

[probinson]

and lets start using a real translation too.

You know, that is funny, because way back in Post #49 of this thread, you referenced the Amplified bible. I guess it's only a "real translation" when it fits your agenda.

The next part of your post handily demonstrates how anyone with an agenda and a concordance can find "text" to support that agenda.

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then He said to them, "Beware, and be on your guard against every form of greed; for not even when one has an abundance does his life consist of his possessions."


Darby Bible Translation
And he said to them, Take heed and keep yourselves from all covetousness, for it is not because a man is in abundance that his life is in his possessions.

Young's Literal Translation
And he said unto them, 'Observe, and beware of the covetousness, because not in the abundance of one's goods is his life.'

Perfect! Covetousness. Do you have any idea what that means? (emphasis added);

1 - marked by inordinate desire for wealth or possessions or for another's possessions



2 - having a craving for possession <covetous of power>​

Look Pinetree! Covetousness is not measured by what possessions you have, but it is measured by a desire or craving for another's possessions! Exactly what I've said all along.

The example in the dictionary says this;

The expensive car drew many covetous looks.
​

Notice that it is not the person that owns the car that is covetous. It is the people who have a desire to posses that car that are covetous.

Your "real translation" say that we should beware of covetousness. You're making my point even clearer for me and you don't even realize it.

 

[GaryArnold]

I think listening to what they say and how they act is a good indicator of greed. You want to look at the surface. I want to look inside.

"What you DO speaks so loudly I can't hear what you say." Actions will give a much better indication of what's inside than listening to what one says. How do you think a manipulator works?

 

[probinson]

If a person is a pastor for the sole reason that God called him to be a pastor, he is still GREEDY if he takes from those who have less than he does. Period.

Well, you said "period", so I guess that settles it once and for all.

The New Testament is very clear that we are to give WHERE THERE IS A NEED. It makes no more sense to give to a pastor who has more than you do than to give to a neighbor that has no more than you do.

Giving to someone who has more than you do shows very poor stewardship. You should be giving to someone who has LESS than you do, and ONLY IF they are in need of help.

Being the programmer that I am, that sounds suspiciously like a formula for giving;

<?
   if($other_person_stuff < $my_stuff)
  {
    if($other_person_in_need == true) 
      {
       give_execute();
      }
    else
      {
      //do nothing
      }
   }
?>

I have an idea; why don't we drop ALL formulas and follow the leading of the Spirit in our giving?

I'm not saying you should NEVER give to someone who has more than you. I am saying your major giving should be to those in need, NOT to someone who has more than you, and NOT to finance a building, etc.

Organized corporations doing business as, and disguised as, a church have blinded the majority of church goers.

Not really. Although I would say that covetousness sure has blinded a lot of people.

 

[probinson]

"What you DO speaks so loudly I can't hear what you say." Actions will give a much better indication of what's inside than listening to what one says. How do you think a manipulator works?

Um, did you bother to read what you quoted? For reference, it said (emphasis added);

I think listening to what they say and how they act is a good indicator of greed. You want to look at the surface. I want to look inside.
​

Do you not think Jesus was correct when He said that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks?

 

[GaryArnold]

You want to look at the surface. I want to look inside.[/I]

I interpret The Word to tell us we can judge ONLY the actions of one, not one's heart. You can't see inside, but you CAN see the actions.

 

[Messy]

You can see and hear if someone is a greedy leader by his fruit, not his car. Some pastors just get a big car from a churchmember as a gift. Met one guy on a conference who did.
If anyone teaches otherwise and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, they are conceited and understand nothing. They have an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions and constant friction between people of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain:
those are greedy false teachers. You can hear it by their preaching and see their fruit.

 

[probinson]

I interpret The Word to tell us we can judge ONLY the actions of one, not one's heart. You can't see inside, but you CAN see the actions.

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." If you believe this is true, then what a person says is indicative of what is in the abundance of their heart.

IOW, if you'll listen to what people say, over time you'll be able to evaluate what their heart is set upon.

If you disagree then what do you think Jesus meant when he said that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks?

 

[Frogster]

You know, that is funny, because way back in Post #49 of this thread, you referenced the Amplified bible. I guess it's only a "real translation" when it fits your agenda.

The next part of your post handily demonstrates how anyone with an agenda and a concordance can find "text" to support that agenda.



Perfect! Covetousness. Do you have any idea what that means? (emphasis added);

1 - marked by inordinate desire for wealth or possessions or for another's possessions



2 - having a craving for possession <covetous of power>​

Look Pinetree! Covetousness is not measured by what possessions you have, but it is measured by a desire or craving for another's possessions! Exactly what I've said all along.

The example in the dictionary says this;

The expensive car drew many covetous looks.
​

Notice that it is not the person that owns the car that is covetous. It is the people who have a desire to posses that car that are covetous.

Your "real translation" say that we should beware of covetousness. You're making my point even clearer for me and you don't even realize it.

dude, coveting the church members money, is coveting his posessions!

LOOKIE HERE, HOW EMBARRESSSING! SAID TO ELDERS!


Acts 20:33 I coveted no one's silver or gold or apparel

and u know i showed u examples from the text with israel, and how the internals r connected to the externals.

 

[Frogster]

Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior said, "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." If you believe this is true, then what a person says is indicative of what is in the abundance of their heart.

IOW, if you'll listen to what people say, over time you'll be able to evaluate what their heart is set upon.

If you disagree then what do you think Jesus meant when he said that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks?

out of the abundance of the heart, come beemers and mansions..

 

[Frogster]

Um, did you bother to read what you quoted? For reference, it said (emphasis added);

I think listening to what they say and how they act is a good indicator of greed. You want to look at the surface. I want to look inside.
​

Do you not think Jesus was correct when He said that out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks?

ohhhhh, so suddenly "speaking" is not about externals,? I thought some teach that we "speak" externals into existence?

keep going friend, this is going to get interesting!

I thought some say we can speak the mountain into the sea, a clear conexion of the internal faith, with the external mountain moving, whereby the inner and outter are the same , proving beemer greed!

how do we not "speak it into existence", if it's not in the heart first? heheheh conexion proved..heheh

beemer equals the heart!

 

[probinson]

I thought some say we can speak the mountain into the sea, a clear conexion of the internal faith, with the external mountain moving, whereby the inner and outter are the same , proving beemer greed!

how do we not "speak it into existence", if it's not in the heart first? heheheh conexion proved..heheh

beemer equals the heart!

Wow. I know you think you're proving something here, but this is pretty much what I heard...

The cow was mooing in the barn at midnight, which caused the sky to turn green because of the lunar eclipse, and then the monkey flew through the night sky, thus proving that cats are actually dogs.
​

IOW, I have no idea how to even begin to respond to this nonsensical mess of a post.

 

[probinson]

In other news, apparently you can see right into the hearts of people by looking at what make and model of car they drive. Who knew? I mean, you'd think it would require some more analysis than that, but nope. Just take a look in the driveway and it's like you're staring right into that person's heart.

Allrighty then.

 

[Svt4Him]

out of the abundance of the heart, come beemers and mansions..

Again how silly, because you've failed to address the issue. You are in effect saying that unless you have a bmw or mansion, you can't be greedy, this is false, but the sillyness doesn't stop there. What about an iPhone? Computer? Internet? Car? House with a floor that's not dirt?

Actually there's really no getting through is there? Good thing none of my seventeen motorcycles are BMW's then, only Harleys, cause then I'm not greedy.

 

[Frogster]

Wow. I know you think you're proving something here, but this is pretty much what I heard...

The cow was mooing in the barn at midnight, which caused the sky to turn green because of the lunar eclipse, and then the monkey flew through the night sky, thus proving that cats are actually dogs.
​

IOW, I have no idea how to even begin to respond to this nonsensical mess of a post.

oh come on, how do we move the mouintain, in the external realm, if the faith is not in the heart first, showing a clear conjunction of the heart, and the externals!?

dude, out of the heart floweth the masnsions and beemers! What is within, is seen in the externals, as per isarael, and the clear text the frog posted.

alrighty now, lets move on to Paul for themost part working not to burden the social security people, and the younger guy raisng a family, who fit nto the exemption clause of 2 cor 8, in THE TEXT.

I am letting u off the hook by changing the subject, because i like u.

 

[Frogster]

Again how silly, because you've failed to address the issue. You are in effect saying that unless you have a bmw or mansion, you can't be greedy, this is false, but the sillyness doesn't stop there. What about an iPhone? Computer? Internet? Car? House with a floor that's not dirt?

Actually there's really no getting through is there? Good think none of my seventeen motorcycles are BMW's then, only Harleys, cause then I'm not greedy.

is this the best u got to rebutt with after all i posted?

reute my text please.