Luke 16: A response to an article.

[Soulgazer]

Post #93 I said from the Spirit which really means the Holy Spirit.

I also explained to you in another thread, I hope you still remember because I already forgot which thread it is. Same source, the Holy Spirit, that someone died for all of us.

But the Holy Spirit also made clear it is not the main ingredient of Christianity of the knowledge of Jesus died on the cross but in obeying the teachings of Jesus.

The Gospels in the Bible did not even state that Jesus himself gave the command to "believe I died in the cross for your sins" but simply "teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you"

If you keep believing the bible is infallible, you will never understand what I'm saying.

For some book to rival the Holy Spirit as the source of truth, Jesus would have mentioned it with such importance too, even rivaling the Holy Spirit in importance as with regards to the source of truth, but he didn't.



...and for many centuries to come. Literacy is quite a modern phenomenon!

If anything, the bible may have actually drowned the Holy Spirit from fully manifesting in the lives of Christians.

Many Christians glorify shrewdness, then be shrewd where it matters, not by making more money but in seeking the truth!

Quite. The modern usage of "believe" is quite pagan in origin. "Pagan" is simply a derogatory term that means "uneducated" or "Country bumpkin".
The usage of the bible by the uneducated has led to snake handling, "tests" comprised of examining the biblical knowledge of the examined and other assorted superstitions.

The First century usage of the word "believe" meant "Trust me enough to give credence to my sayings".
This has been changed, primarily in modern times, to mean "Believe I exist".

A person should be able to find the truth in the sayings, regardless of whom spoke them -- After all, we don't question the multiplication tables because we are not sure Einstein brought them.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Many, if not most, Bible readers mislead themselves through Scriptures either on their own through misinterpreation or with the misguidence of evil spirits and/or false teachers...A person either knows God's voice and spirit or not...

I agree with this for the most part, Senecharnix, however, there are many born-again believers that hold an infantile understanding of what God has spoken to man. Scripture is a written record of events which was given as a witness to the work of God in the lives of men.

So it is my belief that it is possible for one to be saved, yet have a faulty understanding of his own salvation, as well as a faulty view of what is recorded in scripture.

That scripture is an accepted means by which to learn of God is evident throughout scripture. For example:


Luke 24

King James Version (KJV)

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.


Two disciples walking, the Lord draws near unto them. The Lord asks to their communication between each other, and they "fill Him in," lol. After giving an account of the events, and reports of the Lord again being alive, the Lord says unto them:


25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


The Lord does not simply say, "It's Me, guys," but takes them to scripture, implying that they should have known what would take place...because it was written. And He expounds from scripture that which was written of...Himself. Here we see "Moses and all the Prophets" are expounded, and we will see shortly that the Psalms also will be said to speak of Christ.

After showing them that He was not a "ghost," merely a spirit, He says unto them:


44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


The point is, Senecharnix, if the Lord expounded scripture to validate the events, why would we not do the same?

There are those that use "corruption of God's word" as an excuse to create a cherry-picked belief system that is rather convenient, I admit, as if something does not fit their system...they simply disregard it.

I have a firm belief that just as God preserved the very scriptures Christ taught from and used to validate His Person and work, even so He has preserved for us in the New Testament a valid record of events.

Another example would be Philip:



Acts 8:26-36

King James Version (KJV)


26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?



Here we see Philip led of God to go and do exactly what the Lord did...expound upon scripture, that another might have an understanding of scripture.


Ephesians 4:11-14

King James Version (KJV)


11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;



God has gifted men for the purpose of edification of the Body of Christ.

They are not rogue in what they teach...if they are of God. Their doctrine and practice will conform to the standard of measure God has given, His word.

Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Satan and his minions have masqueraded as spirits, shepherds, teachers, and prophets of Light in Christianity since the earliest days of the Church. Paul warned about that phenomena wayback when.

This is very true. So how do we recognize false teachers and demon doctrine?


1 Timothy 4

King James Version (KJV)

4 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;


13 Till I come, give attendance to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine.

14 Neglect not the gift that is in thee, which was given thee by prophecy, with the laying on of the hands of the presbytery.

15 Meditate upon these things; give thyself wholly to them; that thy profiting may appear to all.

16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.


Timothy is exhorted to be diligent in doctrine and practice. Where does Timothy get his doctrine? What does he read? It is not hard to come to the conclusion that we see this as a reference to the teacing of Paul, as well as the Hebrew scriptures. In v.5 sound practice as oppossed to demon doctrine is said to be...

5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.


Here...


1 Timothy 5

King James Version (KJV)

17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

18 For the scripture saith, thou shalt not muzzle the ox that treadeth out the corn. And, The labourer is worthy of his reward.



...it is evident that there are those that specifically deal with scripture and doctrinal matters.


1 Timothy 6:20-21

King James Version (KJV)


20 O Timothy, keep that which is committed to thy trust, avoiding profane and vain babblings, and oppositions of science falsely so called:

21 Which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with thee. Amen.



Here we see a reference, I believe, to extrabiblical philosophies. In his instruction to Timothy, Paul makes mention of scripture and doctrine a number of times. He mentions those that teach demon doctrine. And Timothy is told how to combat that doctrine, and we do not see Paul teach Timothy to simply let go and let God. Scripture is prominent in scripture, lol, and we can see that it was used as a reference to that which is godly, and what we base our beliefs on.

Timothy has a godly heritage from which he can draw from:


2 Timothy 3:15-17

King James Version (KJV)


15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Credit is given to the faith of his grandmother and mother, and we see that his exposure to the word of God is here commended...not condemned.



16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

17 That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.



For some of us, Senecharnix, we don't have to rely upon ourselves to determine what is scripture, and what is not. We have a simple faith in the preservation of God's word in both Old and New Testaments. Concerning Paul's teaching, consider:


2 Peter 3:15-16

King James Version (KJV)


15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.



Peter validates Paul's teaching, and includes it with...the rest of scripture.

Those that wrest the scripture, do so unto their own destruction. The warning built into this is severe, and should bring a fear into man's heart concerning the word of God, and for this reason we are commanded not to be...many teachers, as it is an endeavor that holds severe consequences.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

Those serpents exerted a huge influence over every aspect of Christianity's development,

And just as God preserved His word from the time it was given unto the Jews, He also has preserved His word and teaching in the New Testament.

It is amazing to me how some have no faith that the Lord can preserve the Body of Christ and the teachings that are used by God to bring people to Christ.

including the composition of the New Testament.

Just is not true. If one rejects scripture, they have a great store of resources to draw from to further convince themselves. Ungodly men that have no discernment because they are not led of the Spirit of God are...a dime a dozen. And we can usually recognize the pattern of such men, they will always draw men away from Christ and unto themselves. This is a distinguishing characteristic of the false teacher.

While we would recognize that the preservation of the word of God does have aspects of man's fingerprint, such as scribal errors which have led to a difference in manuscript evidence, there is nothing concerning the teaching which God has given where significant doctrine is affected by man's fallibility.

What God wants man to know in that which He has revealed to Him is...intact.

They continue misleading many who claim to be Christians, including more than a few who idolize the Bible.

Two issues here: first, it is true there are those that wrest scripture for their own purpose. We see that in cults, questionable "denominations," special rights groups, et cetera.

But what we see are those that can combat demon doctrine...with God's word.

Secondly, it is true that some have made scripture an absolute idol in thier lives. The Pharisees are a good example of this. But...the discerning believer is going to understand the lesson of the Pharisee.

For that matter, a sad fact is that when it comes to giving attention to doctrine, the number of people that progress to a more mature level of study is...limited. Most are content to get a weekly dose of teaching and that is about as far as it goes. It is up to God to lead in instruction, but, it is also up to the individual to seek after God to know Him better.

And there is no greater resource to know the Works of God and thusly God's character than scripture.

As wonderful as it is, such is no worthy substitute for a close relatioship with God....

[/quote]

I agree. However, I do not believe scripture teaches that God wants us to be ignorant. In fact, I believe scripture teaches the opposite for believers.

But we also have to understand that not all are going to be gifted for places of leadership and teaching in the Body. Not all are going to be evangelists. Not all are going to be missionaries (in the truest sense of the modern meaning).

Some of us are just going to be regular folk, lol.

I am not saying the Bible is useless. Sure, it is a wonderful source of truth and inspiration for those who are of immature faith or who are searching for faith.

So we get to a point where we no longer need scripture?

I do not believe there is a man alive that has such a knowledge of scripture that he cannot continue to learn from scripture, and to further progress in temporal perfection. The man that thinks he has attained to this is the man that has erred in a very simple teaching of scripture, and that is humility. He has succumbed to pride, one of our greatest enemies while we are in this flesh.

I, however, am saying that God dwells in the hearts of those who are truly His children.

Most os us, Senecharnix, understand and believe that as well.

Their hearts are superior to any book, even the Bible.

Their hearts are reliant on scripture as God conforms us to the image of His Son.

We don't just decide how things are going to be, we look into scripture to learn...how things are. All areas of our understanding are influenced by what God has revealed to man.

They are truly temples for what most folks think inspired every word in the Bible.

If you change that to Who, I would agree.

Unfortunately, their ranks are not vast. Most folks who claim to be Christians are not true children of God….

It is not our place to judge, that role belongs to the Lord. We are simply to do our parts as God leads us. We may suspect one is not saved, and we do what we can to be of use to God where and when we can.

I agree that the number of professed "Christians" is likely misleading, but we have to remember that it is God that saves, that does the work which leads to saving faith, not us. The ax does not cut the tree, the woodsman does. Let's leave judgment in the hands of the Lord where it belongs.

Our best ability as believers is our availability.


Continued...

 

[P1LGR1M]

The children of God who are the most mature and strongest in their faith are like the great ones who populate the pages of the Bible. It is a sure bet that none of them are Bible thumpers.

I wouldn't be so sure about that, my friend.

We have a slew of Prophets that would say different.


Exodus 24:7

King James Version (KJV)


7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.



Deuteronomy 28:58-59

King James Version (KJV)


58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God;

59 Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.




Joshua 1:8

King James Version (KJV)


8 This book of the law shall not depart out of thy mouth; but thou shalt meditate therein day and night, that thou mayest observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then thou shalt make thy way prosperous, and then thou shalt have good success.



Daniel 9:2

King James Version (KJV)


2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understoodby books the number of the years, whereof the word of the Lord came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.



Malachi 3:16

King James Version (KJV)


16 Then they that feared the Lord spake often one to another: and the Lord hearkened, and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before him for them that feared the Lord, and that thought upon his name.



The fear here concerns the commandments of God, as recorded...in scripture.


You can look through here for further examples.


Continued...

 

[Clare73]

Perhaps, you are unaware that most of the Apostles were illiterate. Matthew was probably the only one that was literate. Most of their disciples were also illiterate. Other than the libraries of rich folks, the only way any of them enjoyed access to what we now call the Old Testament was by venturing to the Temple or synagogues…The first gospel, Mark, was not written until well over a generation after Yeshua returned to the Father.

Which simply means there were more Christians who could receive the gospel from the original witnesses and pass on their first-hand information to the next generation.

That establishes a very credible transmission of apostolic teaching.

The Gospel of Matthew was written several years later whereas the gospels of Luke and John were

written many years after that.

Everything in the NT, except for Revelation, was written within about 30 years of Jesus' death.

And with a promise from Jesus that he would enable them to recall and understand all things correctly (Jn 14:26, 16:13-15; Lk 24:48-49), there is no basis for all this attempted discreditation and revisionist history regarding the NT, just to justify rejecting its authority in favor of your own.

Even after they were written and after the epistles attributed to Paul were written,

relatively few copies of them existed for many centuries.

Paul's letters were circulated throughout the churches.
It matters not that believers didn't have them in their hands, when they heard them in their assemblies.

Throughout that time, many, if not most believers, were illiterate and had no access to any Scriptures. Even after the Bible was finally compiled, relatively few copies of it existed until Guttenberg invented the printing press many centuries later. Yet, afterward, the vast majority of Bibles were still being printed in Latin. Greek was the only other flavor. Hardly anyone other than priests, theologians, and scholars could read them even if they had one.

Irrelevant when they were hearing it read in their assemblies.

The cult of the Bible

Belief in the word of God as God-breathed and its authority is a cult now?

Sounds like the Garden: "Hath God said?"
And so it continues. . .

did not begin until late in the Sixteenth Century when some brave souls began daring to print it in native languages. Even then, they remained uncommon for many years and most believers remained illiterate and too poor to afford them even longer. During all of that time, countless believers somehow managed to muddle their way through their lives without access to Scriptures, while remaining faithful to God. How weird, huh?...

That adds up to nearly a two-millennia Dark Ages.
That's a lot of conjecture and revisionist history.

Why would it be weird when believers had access to Scripture from the teaching they received in their assemblies, the same way young children are taught the Scriptures at home.

The only thing weird is your truncation of NT history.

How can you be so certain that the scriptural literature that you have practically deified

So the word of God, breathed out from the very breath of God is simply literature that has been deified. . .

The God-breathed writings of the Bible are as close to the mind of God as you can get on this earth.
It's sad that you don't appreciate that.

is true scripture and not an amalgam of truth and nonsense? How can you be so sure that the Bible failed to be corrupted? How can you be so sure that the Catholic theologians that decided what is scripture and what isn’t were correct about their decisions? After all, Satan was “masquerading as an angel of light, filling with agreeable knowledge, light and spiritual experience” among them and throughout the remainder of the Catholic Church. He had been doing so since the earliest days of the Church and continues to do so in all churches….

Perhaps (?) you are unaware of the only way anyone knows that the Bible is the truth of God.

The powerful witness of the Holy Spirit bearing testimony to the spirit of the believer gives certainty that the Bible is the word of God, breathed out from the very mouth of God.

You won't get any closer to the mind of God than that on this earth.

God,the Son, and the Holy Spirit are my authorities. They form my living, interactive Bible.

God is a god of the heart, not books. He speaks to those that He gathers to Himself and guides them. If one needs to depend on a book rather than God for mentorship and guidance, then their faith is in vain….

Since Satan masqeurades as an angel of light, filling with agreeable knowledge, light and spiritual experience, how do you know what spirit is influencing you, when the word of God is the only rule God has given for measuring the spirits?

This question still remains unanswered by you, and all the fancy footwork trying to establish illiteracy, and a necessary consequence of total ignorance regarding the word of God, is pure conjecture and revisionist history to avoid answering the question.

And where do you find the word "relationship" in Scripture?

"Hath God said?" (Ge 3:1)

In the faith,
Clare

 

[P1LGR1M]

In your vernacular, however, they are those of whom it can be said live the Word and speak the Word without needing to quote scriptures very often….

This is simply an excuse for slothfulness concerning scripture, as far as I am concerned.

Going back to those that have made scripture an idol, we can consider those that memorize scripture. For many, it is from a sincere desire to know God's word better and to be able to accurately relay that which is found in His word. For others, this is done to browbeat people with the word.

I always look at the tags people use, and you can usually see one's character as well as theological position in them. Many times I know what I am gong to be discussing with a person before even talking with them, because their hearts are summed up in a few verses in their tag, lol.

Take a look and see if you don't see what I mean.

The bottom line is that a close, dynamic relationship with God and the Son are far more important and valuable than anything written in any book, even the Bible.

I agree to a certain extent, Senecharnix. Like the Pharisees, it does little good to be "well-versed without having a proper understanding and practice. Just because one knows he is commanded to love his enemies...does not mean he is obedient to God in this area.

But we will not get away from the fact that scripture is the rule(r) by which we measure doctrine and practice.

Whether you agree or not, they still impart revelations and insights to God’s children and help them discern truth, smell deception, and recognize evil.

I do not agree. I do not believe that God is at this time imparting new revelation.

You may be confusing revelation with illumination. This I believe very strongly God has promised to do, and that for those that are diligent, the reward is a blessing beyond many in this world.

They also correct and guide them....

I look at it as He corrects and guides. Consider:


John 14:18

King James Version (KJV)


18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.



Without getting carried away (I know...too late! lol), I would recommend study of the broader context which can be narrowed down from chs.13-17. There is One God, and One Savior.

Praise God.

Never forget that a lot of what religion teaches is meant to keep believers beholden to churches and preachers.

I agree, but we do not consider salvation a Religion with religious works. Christianity is exactly as you say, a personal relationship which is best when God is Lord, not the believer.

Like the bumper sticker says, "If God is your co-pilot...your in the wrong seat!"

They use the scriptures to control their flocks—and religion controlled the scriptures long before such were codified.

But that does not mean that men gifted by God were not able to defend and teach the once delivered faith, my friend.

My faith is, I believe, the very faith taught by those used of God in New Testament scriptures. And while I might fail at times, even as Peter, falling into hypocrisy due to respect of persons, we don't have to live in a state of anxiety that somehow God has lost control. and that He is unable to bring men not only to saving faith, but that He is able to "bring them up in the way they should go."

God is able.

God is willing.

Yeshua came to liberate the children of God from such nonsense.

Not entirely accurate. The Lord did not dismiss the commandments of God for the people, including the religious leaders. He did, however, give them better understanding. The religious did not approach scripture on a heart level, but on a ritualistic performance level. We see that today. We can say "Love you enemy!" And then not...love our enemies. Not because we have to, but because scripture and the Holy Spirit give us better understanding. We don't love my enemies because we am forced to, but because we understand that their fate, which was at one time our own, is a fearful thing.

Concerning the teaching of the religious leaders, have you not read...


Matthew 23

King James Version (KJV)


1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,

2 Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:

3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers.



Anyone can recite scripture and it can benefit those that hear. But the difference between the Religion of the Jews and Christianity is that it is...personal.

And it the Spirit of God which first shows us the beam in our eye before using us to remove motes from the eyes of others.

The ministry of the Comforter is foretold here:

Ezekiel 36:27

King James Version (KJV)


27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.



And while God has always worked in the hearts of men, we see in the New Birth a ministry of God which surpasses instruction and encompasses the personal relationship because we are in Christ and He is in us.

That is what the Holy Spirit is all about. He is the living word of God and the mentor of those whom God gathers to Himself….

Agreed...wholeheartedly.

Worshipping Scripture will never impress God in any way that will prove profitable.

Ignoring and rejecting scripture is far worse, my friend. At least those that worship the written word will be exposed to the very word which can change their hearts.

Remember, the Pharasees practically deified Scriptures.

Not quite accurate. They were rote ritualists that simply inserted religious understanding and practice into the word of God which was designed to create an awareness of sin and need of salvation.

Religion will always build self-reliance, rather than establish faith in God.

Yeshua did not seem impressed with them in any way that helped them escape Hell’s torments....

Well, you go into an area that we have little to base anything on. He loved the Pharisees also, and He was not willing that they should perish. But I agree, He did not play games with them, but delivered unto them truth, both concerning scripture and their practice.

God bless.

 

[Clare73]

Post #93 I said from the Spirit which really means the Holy Spirit.

Thanks.

I also explained to you in another thread, I hope you still remember because I already forgot which thread it is. Same source, the Holy Spirit, that someone died for all of us.

I remember it well. . .the field trip.

So how did you know who the someone was that died for us?

And I asked you then the same question I am asking now, but you did not answer it then, so I am still seeking an answer to my question.

But the Holy Spirit also made clear it is not the main ingredient of Christianity of the knowledge of Jesus died on the cross but in obeying the teachings of Jesus.

And how do you know what spirit is influencing you?
What objective rule do you have for measuring them?

Lying spirits can pass a test question.
A much more thorough rule is needed for an accurate measure of spirits.

This is the question you have not answered.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[Clare73]

Quite. The modern usage of "believe" is quite pagan in origin. . .

The First century usage of the word "believe" meant "Trust me enough to give credence to my sayings".
This has been changed, primarily in modern times, to mean "Believe I exist".

Not among true beleivers in Jesus Christ.

A person should be able to find the truth in the sayings, regardless of whom spoke them

For you, God is no different than humans.

In the faith,
Clare

 

[P1LGR1M]

Quite. The modern usage of "believe" is quite pagan in origin. "Pagan" is simply a derogatory term that means "uneducated" or "Country bumpkin".
The usage of the bible by the uneducated has led to snake handling, "tests" comprised of examining the biblical knowledge of the examined and other assorted superstitions.

The First century usage of the word "believe" meant "Trust me enough to give credence to my sayings".
This has been changed, primarily in modern times, to mean "Believe I exist".

A person should be able to find the truth in the sayings, regardless of whom spoke them -- After all, we don't question the multiplication tables because we are not sure Einstein brought them.

Hello Soulgazer, hope all is well.

I would agree in part with what you say here, but I have to say there are those that adhere to a biblical understanding of belief. True belief will be evidenced by faith, trust, and obedience, and is still found in the hearts of all those born again. There is an easy-believism that is to be avoided.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Hello Soulgazer, hope all is well.

I would agree in part with what you say here, but I have to say there are those that adhere to a biblical understanding of belief. True belief will be evidenced by faith, trust, and obedience, and is still found in the hearts of all those born again. There is an easy-believism that is to be avoided.

God bless.

I'm sure if we examine closely we will find as many beliefs as there are people believing them. I don't subscribe to easy believism. I.E. a muslem friend quoted the Q'uran, wherein it states:
O men! Here is a parable set forth! Listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if theyall met together for the purpose! And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition! They do not have right estimateof Allah.”



I replied, ok. Have Allah create a fly then. One pink eye and one blue eye so I'll know it was from him, and not just a random insect traveling through. He couldn't.

You believe Christ could let you walk on water? Ok. Walk on water then.

Elijah called fire out of heaven? Call fire out of heaven then.

It's real easy to use vicarious belief, and point to a writing and say "this is it". That's what the pharisee did to control the masses. That's easy belief. I am not impressed by that at all. Stand in front of a line of enraged cops about to fire rubber bullets into a crowd of women and children. That impresses the flowers out of me.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello heman, nice to meet you. Sorry for taking so long to get around to this, but dsicussion with those that reject a very basic teaching from scripture, fortunately, can wait, as there are other discussions I have to see as more important.

The rejection of scripture's teaching concerning Satan as a person, rather than a concept, is one that, again...fortunately, will be dismissed by the majority of bible students, and for good reason.

You just cannot read scripture and conclude there is not a Devil. But I look forward to talking to you about it, regardless.

Originally Posted by Senecharnix

Many, if not most, Bible readers mislead themselves through Scriptures Satan and his minions have masqueraded as spirits, shepherds, teachers, and prophets of Light in Christianity since the earliest days of the Church. ....
​

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing, if the same ministers also masquerade as the ministers of righteousness; whose ends shall be according to their works.

Let's look at a little more of what Paul is talking about:


2 Corinthians 11:11-15

King James Version (KJV)


11 Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.

12 But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.

13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.



Can we make Paul's statement to refer to a concept? No. Because Satan's transformation is contrasted with false apostles, and they are his ministers.

People are the enemies of the cross, who disguise oneself as a false show or pretence claiming to be preachers of light, and to mask themselves hiding the real Jesus.

And just as the ministers of Satan are said to belong to Satan, even so those that are not God's children are said to be...


John 8:44

King James Version (KJV)


44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.



Kind of hard to make a concept a liar, isn't it? We do see concepts conveyed in personalities, such as death and hell, that is true, but when we look at the information given concerning Satan, we are not able to isolate him into a concept, but see him in many places to be a person, which we understand to be a fallen angel.

Rom. 9:22, where "fitted" is in the middle voice,

We are fortunate that God has made His word accessible to all men, that they might understand that which He teaches without having to get too complicated.

Sometimes...we overthink scripture.

indicating that the vessels of wrath fitted themselves for "destruction", of the adversaries of the Lord's people, Phil. 1:28 ("perdition"); of professing Christians, really enemies of the cross of Christ, Phil. 3:19

That Philippians 3:18 speaks of the enemies of the Cross does not change the fact that what is attempted here is to give a basis for your belief that is really, irrelevant to the conclusion you have come to and seek to teach to others.

We have to look at Paul's teaching here and distinguish between the general teaching that all men are enemies of God duee to their separation and...those that teach contrary to the Gospel.

The present participle of the verb with the article, which is equivalent to a noun, signifies "an adversary," e.g., Luke 13:17; 21:15; 1 Cor. 16:9; Phil. 1:28; 1 Tim. 5:14.

And the perfect passive participle prepared indicates God's omniscience and foreknowledge, but does not dsimiss scripture's teaching concerning Satan being personified.

Nor does it conflict with scripture's teaching of judgment concerning all those classified as God's adversaries.

I know that many struggle with the notion that sin has consequences, but this should motivate us to bolster our efforts to warn every man...not try to teach away the simplicity of these teachings.

This construction is used of the Man of Sin, in 2 Thess. 2:4, and is translated "He that opposeth," where, adopting the noun form, we might render by "the opponent and self-exalter against...."

Which would not change what is taught. At all.

What is overlooked is that this is not a general reference to the sin of man, for before the "man of sin" apears we are told...


2 Thessalonians 2

King James Version (KJV)

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.



...which teaches us that there will be a revelation of something that is not yet revealed, is in fact restrained at this point.

Which quashes an attempt to generalize the man of sin, the Antichrist...into a condition.

In Gal. 5:17 it is used of the antagonism between the Holy Spirit and the flesh in the believer; in 1 Tim. 1:10, of anything, in addition to persons, that is opposed to the doctrine of Christ. In these two places the word is rendered "contrary to.

That contrary doctrine is adversarial is true...is a given.

But how, may I ask, does this fortify a teaching that denies what is taught concerning Satan in scripture?

It is a smokescreen, intended to strengthen the position, but it cannot deny what scripture teaches.

In the Sept. it is used of [an opponent 7854] Satan, Zech. 3:1, 4 and of men, Job 13:24; Isa. 66:6.

So who doesa the Lord speak to in Zechariah 3? Does a concept accuse the brethren?


Revelation 12:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.



Zechariah 3

King James Version (KJV)


1 And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.



If we follow your thought process we would have to conclude that "adversary" cannot refer to a person:


1 Kings 11:21-25

King James Version (KJV)


21 And when Hadad heard in Egypt that David slept with his fathers, and that Joab the captain of the host was dead, Hadad said to Pharaoh, Let me depart, that I may go to mine own country.

22 Then Pharaoh said unto him, But what hast thou lacked with me, that, behold, thou seekest to go to thine own country? And he answered, Nothing: howbeit let me go in any wise.

23 And God stirred him up another adversary, Rezon the son of Eliadah, which fled from his lord Hadadezer king of Zobah:

24 And he gathered men unto him, and became captain over a band, when David slew them of Zobah: and they went to Damascus, and dwelt therein, and reigned in Damascus.

25 And he was an adversary to Israel all the days of Solomon, beside the mischief that Hadad did: and he abhorred Israel, and reigned over Syria.



That Satan is a "person" can be seen in the dialogue found in Job.

Heb. 10:27, "adversaries." In each place a more violent form of opposition is suggested than in the case of enantios.

We do not see enantios personified in scripture. It is descriptive of those that are contrary, but when we see an adversarial position attributed to those that are contrary strengthened we see hypenantios, as in Hebrews 10:26.

And what you have to ask is this speaking of the sin, or the sinner?

DEVIL, DEVILISH (διαβολος, 1228), "an accuser, a slanderer" (from diaballo, "to accuse, to malign"). The noun is applied to slanderers, false accusers, 1 Tim. 3:11; 2 Tim. 3:3; Titus 2:3.

...and to Satan.

Where then came the false belief of demons, devils, evil spirits?

The same place rejection of biblical teaching did...the hearts of men and their desire to teach what they want to believe.

But we can include not just a faulty understanding about demons and evil spirits, but denial of their existence as a false belief.

But like I said, most will not come to the conclusion that some do, and will accept scripture's teaching on the subject.

As in after-ages, the heathens believed, that the world was governed by genii, hero-spirits, or daemons, by the appointment of the Deity; so in these earlier, and first ages of idolatry, they worshipped only the lights of Heaven, and the elements; allowing indeed a supreme Deity, but thinking these all had intelligence, and were appointed by him to govern the world.

Define "after-ages."

We understand that God created the world, walked with man, and as man's relationship with God was lost he fell into creating his own gods. Behind those idols I believe we can see the work of demons. It does not matter if they chose the sun, moon, or stars...or particular animals. The bottom line is that they did not worship God. Judgment for idolatry runs throughout scripture, and concering Hell, we see the last judgment that will befall those that reject God.

Their kings and learned men did indeed know God, but they did not retain him so strictly in their knowledge as they ought to have done, but set up other deities besides, and instead of him.

Biblically speaking, to "know" expresses, or at least implies, intimate relationship to.

Remember that man has a tendency not to know God.

So I do not know what kings and learned men you refer to. You seem to take liberty here, as far as I am concerned:


Romans 1:21

King James Version (KJV)


21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.



This is a general reference to man, and does not imply a relationship, but rather a progression into self-deception. They were given over...


22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,


These men do know God intimately, they rebel against the internal witness of God, and therefore suffer the consequences.


26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:


28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;


In other words, they refused to continue in sound knowledge so they were left to the fate of their own making. They were reprobate, and God left them to that which they sought after.

They thought that the Sun, Moon, Stars, and Elements, were appointed to govern the world'

Demon doctrine, to be sure.

THE CREATIONAND FALL OF M A N. By Samuel Shuckford D.D. Page 433

If Mr. Shuckford teaches Satan and demons are not real, his book is good for nothing but kindling.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

I'm sure if we examine closely we will find as many beliefs as there are people believing them. I don't subscribe to easy believism. I.E. a muslem friend quoted the Q'uran, wherein it states:
O men! Here is a parable set forth! Listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if theyall met together for the purpose! And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition! They do not have right estimateof Allah.”



I replied, ok. Have Allah create a fly then. One pink eye and one blue eye so I'll know it was from him, and not just a random insect traveling through. He couldn't.

First, I would say that there was no implication thatyou are an easy-believism adherent, as you are, sorry, quite the picture of unbelief and denial.

Sorry for the confusion.

Secondly, to ask for a sign of God, no matter one's religion, shows unbelief, rather than belief, so I fail to see the relevance.

You believe Christ could let you walk on water? Ok. Walk on water then.

Elijah called fire out of heaven? Call fire out of heaven then.

Walk on water? I desire to attain to a faith that will help me get out of the boat! lol

I will tell you what I do believe God can do through believers, my friend...He can speak to their hearts. He can save, both the person and the person in dire temporal circumstances. He can change lives.

And that is what He is doing at this time.

I do believe we are on the verge of seeing God do a work in the lives of men. I believe the groundwork for the Tribulation is even now being laid.

And the sad historical fact is that miracles have never been able to prove God to anyone. Of course that is historical fact for those of us trusting in God's word.

So, no, I will not, nor do I need to, test God and make Him prove Himself to me...His word does that. His work in my life and the lives of others does that. If I could call down fire or walk on water, it would not move you, my friend, because you would then surely look for a scientific explanation of how it was done, right? lol

It's real easy to use vicarious belief, and point to a writing and say "this is it". That's what the pharisee did to control the masses.

My belief is my own, generated by the Spirit of God. It is something I once did not possess, and is now immpossible to dispossess.

And believing the Pharisee"controlled the masses" is in error, I believe, because just like religious efforts today, there are many that attend because of their beliefs, not because they are being controlled. The individuality of the worshipper should be apparent, even to you, my friend. Unless you want to confess you, as a retired Gnostic Pastor, also controlled those that you took charge of.

That's easy belief.

The Pharisee cannot be compared to the easy believism adherent, because they were a very religious sect. Nothing easy about their lives.

They were not nominal in their beliefs, but zealous.

I am not impressed by that at all. Stand in front of a line of enraged cops about to fire rubber bullets into a crowd of women and children. That impresses the flowers out of me.

For me, it raises a question of sanity in general, lol.

Who are these "enraged cops" you speak of? Could you give me some examples of those that "impressed the flowers" out of you? Can you tell me why they were enraged, and why the crowd was zealous?

It's just kind of curious to me.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

First, I would say that there was no implication thatyou are an easy-believism adherent, as you are, sorry, quite the picture of unbelief and denial.

Sorry for the confusion.

Secondly, to ask for a sign of God, no matter one's religion, shows unbelief, rather than belief, so I fail to see the relevance.



Walk on water? I desire to attain to a faith that will help me get out of the boat! lol

I will tell you what I do believe God can do through believers, my friend...He can speak to their hearts. He can save, both the person and the person in dire temporal circumstances. He can change lives.

And that is what He is doing at this time.

I do believe we are on the verge of seeing God do a work in the lives of men. I believe the groundwork for the Tribulation is even now being laid.

And the sad historical fact is that miracles have never been able to prove God to anyone. Of course that is historical fact for those of us trusting in God's word.

So, no, I will not, nor do I need to, test God and make Him prove Himself to me...His word does that. His work in my life and the lives of others does that. If I could call down fire or walk on water, it would not move you, my friend, because you would then surely look for a scientific explanation of how it was done, right? lol



My belief is my own, generated by the Spirit of God. It is something I once did not possess, and is now immpossible to dispossess.

And believing the Pharisee"controlled the masses" is in error, I believe, because just like religious efforts today, there are many that attend because of their beliefs, not because they are being controlled. The individuality of the worshipper should be apparent, even to you, my friend. Unless you want to confess you, as a retired Gnostic Pastor, also controlled those that you took charge of.



The Pharisee cannot be compared to the easy believism adherent, because they were a very religious sect. Nothing easy about their lives.

They were not nominal in their beliefs, but zealous.



For me, it raises a question of sanity in general, lol.

Who are these "enraged cops" you speak of? Could you give me some examples of those that "impressed the flowers" out of you? Can you tell me why they were enraged, and why the crowd was zealous?

It's just kind of curious to me.

God bless.

Asking a guy who claims to have a powerful god that can create a fly to actually create one might be in bad form. To me, it's common sense.

I suppose in the eyes of the world people standing up to oppression to defend the weak with their own flesh is a crazy thing to do. You don't think Christ would do it? That is belief in action; to defend the weak knowing that to do so is really really going to hurt. It may be erroneous belief. Maybe God hates the peacemakers. Maybe God loves to see women and children shot with rubber bullets. However, it is not "easy belief".

 

[P1LGR1M]

Asking a guy who claims to have a powerful god that can create a fly to actually create one might be in bad form. To me, it's common sense.

I suppose in the eyes of the world people standing up to oppression to defend the weak with their own flesh is a crazy thing to do. You don't think Christ would do it? That is belief in action; to defend the weak knowing that to do so is really really going to hurt. It may be erroneous belief. Maybe God hates the peacemakers. Maybe God loves to see women and children shot with rubber bullets. However, it is not "easy belief".

I haven't a clue as to how this is relevant, Soulgazer.

I have never advocated either tempting God or opposed standing up for the weak.

You doubt the muslim's god because he cannot make his god obey to a command? I would be far more concerned had the man actually brought about your request. Demons have power also.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

I haven't a clue as to how this is relevant, Soulgazer.

That puzzles me.

I have never advocated either tempting God or opposed standing up for the weak.

For me, it raises a question of sanity in general, lol.

You doubt the muslim's god because he cannot make his god obey to a command?

God bless.

If somebody makes fantastical claims, don't you think he should be able to back them up? What good is it to tell me that my God can't make a fly, and then have him say that his doesn't want to? I wasn't the one making fantastical claims. The burden of proof was on Allah, don't you think?

I would be far more concerned had the man actually brought about your request. Demons have power also.

And dragons breath fire, which might be handy for a cook out, if you can summon one. If a fly with one blue eye had appeared, I would have given his story some credence. As it turned out, it's just another claim used as "proof" that is no proof at all.

 

[P1LGR1M]

That puzzles me.

Just call me the Riddle Man, amigo.

Just to clarify, your train of thought is out of left field. I thought we were talking about belief, weren't we?

You then supply your witty dealing with a muslim and this parable:

O men! Here is a parable set forth! Listen to it! Those on whom, besides Allah, ye call, cannot create (even) a fly, if theyall met together for the purpose! And if the fly should snatch away anything from them, they would have no power to release it from the fly. Feeble are those who petition and those whom they petition! They do not have right estimateof Allah.”

...which does not say "If you want to have me call up a fly to make the infidel believe, just ask," but says that false gods cannot of themselves create, and could not should they combine all their powers. If they did somehow manage it (and I am guessing here, you should probably see if there is an appropriate commentary in your vast store, it should only take a couple of pounds, lol), the fly would be more powerful than they! lol It ends with condemnation for their foolish beliefs in false gods.

All in all, typical commendation of one's own god, I should say, and is reminiscient of the Christian belief that God alone can actually create, whereas all others are only able to manipulate existing material, whether it be physical or spiritual. For instance, a fallen angel might be able to make a mudpie, but he is reliant on existing mud. Capiche?

Then, you ask this guy to petition his god to make a fly you could recognize as meeting your desired proof.

Two different things entirely. Did the guy say, "I can ask of allah and he would create for me a fly?" My guess would be no, he did not.

If somebody makes fantastical claims, don't you think he should be able to back them up?

But did he actually make a fantastic claim, Soulgazer?

Or were just being a bit unspecific and imparting your own assessment on the situation?

What good is it to tell me that my God can't make a fly, and then have him say that his doesn't want to?

Did he say, Soulgazer, "My god will create a fly...and your's cannot, so there!"

Or did he simply provide a verse of his holy writ in an attempt to glorify his own god?

In point of fact the God of the Bible did create flies. It is possible that the fly may be a result of the curse, as many sources of annoyance are...lol. (and yes, that is a poorly veiled jab, my friend, but given in good humor...it is just a joke)

And that God could indeed create a fly with different colored eyes is also true, however, you might be more specific in whether you mean eyes or lenses, so that when you tempt God you are not vague in your request. Needless to say, when the Lord provides a sign, He does so for His own purpose, not because He is a genie that fulfills the requests of those rubbing the lamp. Few in scripture ask God for a sign (off the top of my head I can recall Abraham, Gideon, and the unbelieving in Christ's day) and it usually is not a good thing.

I wasn't the one making fantastical claims.

Are you sure he was?

The burden of proof was on Allah, don't you think?

Only if the guy was foolish enough to think that his god would respond upon command.

And dragons breath fire, which might be handy for a cook out, if you can summon one.

I cannot off the top of my head recall dragon's in scripture breathing fire. Perhaps you could supply a verse or two.

If a fly with one blue eye had appeared, I would have given his story some credence.

And you would still not have accepted his god. You would not have believed. That is of course assumption on my part but it is an assumption based upon the biblical record of those that witnessed far greater miracles than the creation of a blue-eyed fly.

As it turned out, it's just another claim used as "proof" that is no proof at all.

Well, I have not offered any proof. I did offer the things I see God doing in the lives and hearts of men in this Age. If I told you that God would trouble your heart, and make you uneasy, perhaps trouble your sleep, and He did, would that be proof?

Well, He will do that, my friend, and the more you expose yourself to His word, the more you will be faced to deal with God according to His terms.

Okay, that's it for me for the night.

Sleep well, my friend.

God bless.

 

[Soulgazer]

Just call me the Riddle Man, amigo.

Just to clarify, your train of thought is out of left field. I thought we were talking about belief, weren't we?

You then supply your witty dealing with a muslim and this parable:





...which does not say "If you want to have me call up a fly to make the infidel believe, just ask," but says that false gods cannot of themselves create, and could not should they combine all their powers. If they did somehow manage it (and I am guessing here, you should probably see if there is an appropriate commentary in your vast store, it should only take a couple of pounds, lol), the fly would be more powerful than they! lol It ends with condemnation for their foolish beliefs in false gods.

All in all, typical commendation of one's own god, I should say, and is reminiscient of the Christian belief that God alone can actually create, whereas all others are only able to manipulate existing material, whether it be physical or spiritual. For instance, a fallen angel might be able to make a mudpie, but he is reliant on existing mud. Capiche?

Then, you ask this guy to petition his god to make a fly you could recognize as meeting your desired proof.

Two different things entirely. Did the guy say, "I can ask of allah and he would create for me a fly?" My guess would be no, he did not.



But did he actually make a fantastic claim, Soulgazer?

Or were just being a bit unspecific and imparting your own assessment on the situation?



Did he say, Soulgazer, "My god will create a fly...and your's cannot, so there!"

Or did he simply provide a verse of his holy writ in an attempt to glorify his own god?

In point of fact the God of the Bible did create flies. It is possible that the fly may be a result of the curse, as many sources of annoyance are...lol. (and yes, that is a poorly veiled jab, my friend, but given in good humor...it is just a joke)

And that God could indeed create a fly with different colored eyes is also true, however, you might be more specific in whether you mean eyes or lenses, so that when you tempt God you are not vague in your request. Needless to say, when the Lord provides a sign, He does so for His own purpose, not because He is a genie that fulfills the requests of those rubbing the lamp. Few in scripture ask God for a sign (off the top of my head I can recall Abraham, Gideon, and the unbelieving in Christ's day) and it usually is not a good thing.



Are you sure he was?



Only if the guy was foolish enough to think that his god would respond upon command.



I cannot off the top of my head recall dragon's in scripture breathing fire. Perhaps you could supply a verse or two.



And you would still not have accepted his god. You would not have believed. That is of course assumption on my part but it is an assumption based upon the biblical record of those that witnessed far greater miracles than the creation of a blue-eyed fly.



Well, I have not offered any proof. I did offer the things I see God doing in the lives and hearts of men in this Age. If I told you that God would trouble your heart, and make you uneasy, perhaps trouble your sleep, and He did, would that be proof?

Well, He will do that, my friend, and the more you expose yourself to His word, the more you will be faced to deal with God according to His terms.

Okay, that's it for me for the night.

Sleep well, my friend.

God bless.

Well, He doesn't trouble my sleep. I have the comforter, which is the spirit of truth. Not the made up one, but the real one

I don't worry about demons or dragons or wondering when bronze age prophesies are going to come true, or any other nonsense. Create flies or not, my God is bigger.

Now, I do agree with you on one thing, so take comfort in knowing that it must be true if I agree...... God works through people. God is the guy saying "No, I am not going to hide these atrocities". God is the guy (or gal, just sayin) who is looking for the best in everyone, out there taking care of business everyday, makes sure the litter goes in the bucket, the blanket goes to the cold, and food goes to the hungry.


This is the creed that I follow. You might agree or disagree with it, but I won't care, because it is true in every way important:

There is one who descended to the mortal plane, lived here, and ascended again without causing distress in anyone. That person is Jesus Christ. He never burdened anyone to please himself. Those who perfect the integrity of their lives so that they can live as Jesus did, causing distress to none, placing burdens on none, will be the means of enlightening mankind. This is the good news of Christ, that we can perfect our lives so that we are sources of good among all the evils of mortal existence. A true disciple relieves the stress of others; he does not add to it. It is not only those in the Covenant he assists, but everyone, of every degree, whose life he touches. He always tries to increase the power of Good on the mortal plane. Sometimes people are distressed at him, but it is their own inappropriate desires that cause their distress, not his efforts.~Philip

I could ask Sophia to haunt your dreams, but it wouldn't do anymore good than your veiled premise of power. She is an elusive dame, and doesn't visit the bed of just anyone.

 

[timewerx]

The First century usage of the word "believe" meant "Trust me enough to give credence to my sayings".

Thank you for explaining! There's a lot of danger in that system. A person can tell the truth for once, the whole year, the whole decades, then tells a lie in just one day and you also accepted it as truth. It will deceive so many!!

So how did you know who the someone was that died for us?

I've lost recollection. The only way I can recognize him is by his teachings, ideas, concepts. He matched perfectly the character of Jesus in the Gospels only.

It's right there in your bible. The sheep recognize Jesus by his voice... In essence, in what he's teaching. It is not mentioned, they recognize him by his name.

And how do you know what spirit is influencing you?
What objective rule do you have for measuring them?

Lying spirits can pass a test question.
A much more thorough rule is needed for an accurate measure of spirits.

Quite easy, I test every word, every sentence, the whole message in fact, from start to finish. I do that to anyone even if I have known them for a very long time!

Honestly, I had mistakes early on. I did not have the proper criteria to test the spirits. All it took was my never-ending desire to know the truth, until now that God created powerful circumstances in my life to teach me, in discernment and understanding.

Most of these things God taught me are in the Gospels. You can use the Gospels as a criteria but I wouldn't count on it to solely depend on, since the Holy Spirit teaches more but still compatible with the Gospels.

 

[Senecharnix]

I agree with this for the most part, Senecharnix, however, there are many born-again believers that hold an infantile understanding of what God has spoken to man. Scripture is a written record of events which was given as a witness to the work of God in the lives of men.

So it is my belief that it is possible for one to be saved, yet have a faulty understanding of his own salvation, as well as a faulty view of what is recorded in scripture.

That scripture is an accepted means by which to learn of God is evident throughout scripture. For example:


Luke 24

King James Version (KJV)

13 And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.

14 And they talked together of all these things which had happened.

15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.


Two disciples walking, the Lord draws near unto them. The Lord asks to their communication between each other, and they "fill Him in," lol. After giving an account of the events, and reports of the Lord again being alive, the Lord says unto them:


25 Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:

26 Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?

27 And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.


The Lord does not simply say, "It's Me, guys," but takes them to scripture, implying that they should have known what would take place...because it was written. And He expounds from scripture that which was written of...Himself. Here we see "Moses and all the Prophets" are expounded, and we will see shortly that the Psalms also will be said to speak of Christ.

After showing them that He was not a "ghost," merely a spirit, He says unto them:


44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,


The point is, Senecharnix, if the Lord expounded scripture to validate the events, why would we not do the same?

There are those that use "corruption of God's word" as an excuse to create a cherry-picked belief system that is rather convenient, I admit, as if something does not fit their system...they simply disregard it.

I have a firm belief that just as God preserved the very scriptures Christ taught from and used to validate His Person and work, even so He has preserved for us in the New Testament a valid record of events.

Another example would be Philip:



Acts 8:26-36

King James Version (KJV)


26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.

30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?

31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.

32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:

33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.

36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?



Here we see Philip led of God to go and do exactly what the Lord did...expound upon scripture, that another might have an understanding of scripture.


Ephesians 4:11-14

King James Version (KJV)


11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;



God has gifted men for the purpose of edification of the Body of Christ.

They are not rogue in what they teach...if they are of God. Their doctrine and practice will conform to the standard of measure God has given, His word.

Continued...

Since you worked so hard on this, I will commend you for your presentation. I will reply after I finish disgesting the entirety of its various parts.