• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

Status
Not open for further replies.

strangertoo

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8
Nov 2, 2011
2,337
15
UK
Visit site
✟25,141.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
And Critical History has no basis in scripture.

If one wants to reject the word of God, one need not look far for support, for the world itself is against the word of God and it is no wonder "higher learning" has come full circle to the state it is today.

God bless.

why do you not realise that God Himself personally teaches all who are His ?

Jesus says so [John 16:13] and the new covenant says so [Heb 8:10-11]
also the saints and prophets throughout scripture...

BUT you KNOW scripture is edited and mistranslated... so why not wait for God to tell you ALL, 100% PURE, unadulterated by sinners and Satan as the scripture undeniably is altered and mistranslated as all supposed copies and their translations are DIFFERENT ... ???
 
Upvote 0

P1LGR1M

Stranger
Jun 20, 2012
2,528
145
✟32,889.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
why do you not realise that God Hi,self personally teaches all who are His ?

Please go back and reread the post, strangertoo...you will not see me saying this.

What I did say was this:


Originally Posted by strangertoo
God can and will show all folks the Truth -Joel 2:28,
Correction...

Joel 2:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


...God will show His people the truth. And while there will be those who "come" to the knowledge of the truth, that does not mean they embrace it.



Originally Posted by strangertoo
John 16:13,
John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



Again, this does not teach that "God will show all folks the truth."

It speaks of believers and if we go through John 13-17, we will see it speaks of a future fulfillment, namely, to begin at Pentecost.



Now, before you charge one with something they have not said, be more careful in your reading.



Jesus says so [John 16:13] and the new covenant says so [Heb 8:10-11]
also the saints and prophets throughout scripture...

Actually, they don't.

Only God's people can receive the truth. The natural man, he that is not born again (who is, by the way, indwelt by God, not awaiting this blessed event)...cannot understand the spiritual things of God. Only at one time in the natural man's existence will he understand, and that is when the Lord convicts that person of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He will receive the truth and be saved, or he will reject it and be damned.

Both results are said in scripture to be eternal.

BUT you KNOW scripture is edited and mistranslated...

Actually, I don't. I know that there are insertions and scribal errors, dealing primarily with marginal notes, but don't confuse this with editing. If you want an example of editing take a look at the NWT. And most that are not associated with that group reject that "translation" as well as the doctrine which necessitated it's origin.

so why not wait for God to tell you ALL, 100% PURE, unadulterated by sinners and Satan as the scripture undeniably is altered and mistranslated as all supposed copies and their translations are DIFFERENT ... ???

Take a book, such as The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (chose a short, easy one). Put ten men in a room and have them copy it. Then, compare.

The chances that there will be mistakes is a given, for man is prone to error. The chances, however, that all ten men will make the same mistake in the same place is, however, is next to impossible, if not impossible. Now, by comparing these copies the chance that you will be able to reproduce the original are very, very good.

The scholarship that those that reject scripture is about as trustworthy as the fox promising to watch over the hen house and to keep them all safe.

Or better yet...the wolves promising to "enlighten" the sheep.

As for me, I trust that God has preserved His word, even as He said He would.

Do I take this on faith? Of course.

Do those that do not believe scripture to be valid also take it on faith that they have the "truth?" Of course.

Every man will for himself decide on this, and every man alone will be judged for that he has done in the body according to the knowledge he possesses. I at least, do not have to worry that one day I will stand before God and find out...it was not His word.

God bless.
 
Upvote 0

Soulgazer

Christian Gnostic
Feb 24, 2011
3,748
90
Visit site
✟26,903.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
And Critical History has no basis in scripture.

If one wants to reject the word of God, one need not look far for support, for the world itself is against the word of God and it is no wonder "higher learning" has come full circle to the state it is today.

God bless.
I believe that people who claim the bible is the word of God have rejected the word of God, so we are at a stalemate.
 
Upvote 0

strangertoo

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8
Nov 2, 2011
2,337
15
UK
Visit site
✟25,141.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
I believe that people who claim the bible is the word of God have rejected the word of God, so we are at a stalemate.

hardly ... God will have the last word , to all - as indeed in Joel 2:28

or one could know from Love itself alone [if one really respected it]
 
Upvote 0

strangertoo

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8
Nov 2, 2011
2,337
15
UK
Visit site
✟25,141.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
Now, before you charge one with something they have not said, be more careful in your reading.
My apologies, but it was not meant as a 'charge'... I am no judge , nor have any desire to be one ... just here to discuss , and it is easy to make mistakes in understanding folks in this medium on the subject matter which can only largely be alluded to, never proscribed, much even ineffable...

Only God's people can receive the truth.
that's a tautology [in reverse], the Truth of Love makes God's people...

The natural man, he that is not born again (who is, by the way, indwelt by God, not awaiting this blessed event)...cannot understand the spiritual things of God.
as Jesus says, all will accept him one day... the natural man can become spiritual by just the three baptisms... Jesus came to save sinners, not condemn them... so you might deceive yourself less by appending 'yet' to your statements:-

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Only at one time in the natural man's existence will he understand, and that is when the Lord convicts that person of sin, righteousness, and judgment. He will receive the truth and be saved, or he will reject it and be damned.
again, 'damned' is a mistranslation and an insult to God who judges fairly, justly, who is ready for translation, who needs more persuasion before they perfect Love in life...

Both results are said in scripture to be eternal.
Again demonstrably a mistranslation ... there is no eternity of the physical , no infinity of time, and the spirit is endlessly teh same , not bound in time [which the spirit creates and thus is wholly independent of, separate from]

Actually, I don't. I know that there are insertions and scribal errors, dealing primarily with marginal notes, but don't confuse this with editing.
I'm afraid you are mistaken ... suggest that you check the source materials to see ... there are no two 'source document copies' which are the same except tiny fragments with one or two words on them... that is a concrete undeniable sign of editing THROUGHOUT scripture... but what is even worse is the mistranslation that makes every version of the bible DIFFERENT , but even the known errors are still copied because of tradition of men , because religion cannot ever accept that it is in error, of Satan, not inspired by God's ONE Truth , which would of course unite all religion ...

Take a book, such as The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe (chose a short, easy one). Put ten men in a room and have them copy it. Then, compare.

The chances that there will be mistakes is a given, for man is prone to error. The chances, however, that all ten men will make the same mistake in the same place is, however, is next to impossible, if not impossible. Now, by comparing these copies the chance that you will be able to reproduce the original are very, very good.
a very poor analogy , as anyone who has examined the doctrinal CONSISTENT nature of the errors would see straight away ... fortunately the word of God is resiliently Love and so scripture itself reveals the errors by simply treating it as a whole... something all traditions of men fight viciously against doing , even torturing and executing even saints who will not conform if simple fake 'excommunication' doesn't do the trick... frankly the history of it is obscene and very far , opposite from, the Love of God...

The scholarship that those that reject scripture is about as trustworthy as the fox promising to watch over the hen house and to keep them all safe.
well most of it is , but there is nothing to stop a saint explaining God's Truth ... and it is nothing like any religious tradition of sinners , which traditions all have their own versions of scripture and simply ignore all the scripture which speaks against their private interpretation , pushing their revised words set in place instead of the Truth of God [of the original scripture and the original meanings and allusions in the original language]

Or better yet...the wolves promising to "enlighten" the sheep.
simple logic PROVES that DIVIDED religion is false , as at most one 'interpretation' of scripture even could be TRUE and men disagree right down to individual beliefs they call 'faith' ... that means the whole world is deluded by religion , as Jesus says will happen -Rev 13:3-4 - and he even gives us the figures [Rev 7:3-8] which work out at about two thousand following Jesus at any one time... [confirmed in Jude 1:14] ... one in three million alive today, and the rest sinners following Satan, not Christ , but many of them saying they are following Christ [as sinners , even as 'sinner priests ' ,an oxymoron... a sinner cannot be a priest ... yet we even have paedophile sodomites as mock priests today... and they defended by the hierarchy of their priesthood all the way to the 'top' which is a man or founder , in place of Christ ['antichristios'] ...as Jesus says he will lead his church of saints ALWAYS , he never gave anyone any role as leader of his church in his place... so the evidence is written in countless different versions of scripture and none of them tied to the original by any saint ever ... and only a saiint of God [not the fake one's ordained by sinners] , baptised of the spirit, would know ... no amount of words or fake authority of 'scholarship ' can restore the original scripture ...nor is there any need, for all who are of God are taught directly by God ... Jesus never had anything written down for that very reason :-

John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

religion is thus just a load of hot air conveying Satan's deception that he is the God of men, that one can sin all one's life and be saved effortlessly just by saying one has faith that he is God ... a fake Christ...

As for me, I trust that God has preserved His word, even as He said He would.
You are mistaken, God never said any such thing about the written word , else we should have the ORIGINALS and all copies would be identical and all translations would be the same in sense at least ...

Do I take this on faith? Of course.
the faith of this whole world is in Satan according to Jesus -Rev 13:3-4 , only about one in three million alive today escape the delusion of mass religion [finally united in worship of a fake god, a false Christ , witha false gospel , fake new covenant, unholy days in place of God's memorials to His Plan, sinner priests over large congregations of sinners, hu8ge cathedrals and fancy churches full of gold and idols and riches whilst the poor starve in misery to death , 50,000 a day , mostly the very little children Jesus said men would hurt only at their great cost in woe]

Do those that do not believe scripture to be valid also take it on faith that they have the "truth?" Of course.
fake argument my friend... you simply assume the answer and then regard it as true... deceiving yourself, but not me... there are about two thousand alive now following Jesus who know the Truth from God Himself directly ...they indeed know the fakery of scripture by mass religions for sake of not admitting the mistakes and being discredited... but what is amazing is how few even read scripture and use it to see through the lies...

Every man will for himself decide on this, and every man alone will be judged for that he has done in the body according to the knowledge he possesses. I at least, do not have to worry that one day I will stand before God and find out...it was not His word.
Let us instead try a few objective tests of what you claim [hoping I have not misunderstood or made a mistake again in this]:-

Mark 14:9 Verily I say unto you, Wheresoever this gospel shall be preached throughout the whole world, this also that she hath done shall be spoken of for a memorial of her.

Do you understand the real gospel ? Was this ever preached to you before today so you understand what the Christ is by the true gospel ?

Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

so count with me , how many nights between Good Friday and Easter Sunday [in any and all calendars /systems of mankind's perverse timekeeping systems] ?

now look at your CANON ... and read your bible to find out how many books it authorises as scripture which are not there [about twenty ]

so if you believe the bible you have is the canon, you are deceived by Satan, it simply is untrue... proving that ANY religion which claims that the bible is the canon of scripture is of Satan...

there are many more valid PROOFS in scripture, I just mention a few here in case your mind is open...
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,780.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I see what your saying. I would agrue God did make sure the full deposit of faith readily available to us through his Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit used the apostles and their successors as the official organ for divine revelation. I'd state the comment assumes all "essentials" are based in Scripture alone and the "essentials" are self-evident to any 'saved' reader. Your take? James
If I'm understanding you correctly then we would differ as far as thinking that everyone alive has this saving faith. I think that's what you're saying but I'm not sure, because you then mention 'saved' readers being able to understand scripture.

My argument for when one receives faith for salvation is based upon:

ROM 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word/rhema of God.

We may differ on our interpretation of this verse. The word for "word" above is not graphe/scripture, but rhema which many believe is the 'spoken word' of God. When you hear 'that word/rhema' you then have faith to believe from the heart and not just the head. That "word" is the only word that "proceedeth" (present tense) from the MOUTH of God...and will not return to Him without accomplishing (in this case salvation) that which HE sent it for.

ISA 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hope this helps explain my take.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,780.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I'm actally saying that we have these lettters. We just call them the New Testament. If a church has a tradition (such as eternal torture in hell) that contradicts what we find in the NT, we aren't obligated to believe them. They have strayed from what the Apostles taught.
But that's the problem. I don't see a contradiction to eternal hell in the poorly translated bibles that the people who believe in eternal hell, quote.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,780.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Hello Hillsage, nice to meet you.

Time and time again the argument is offered that "this is a new doctrine," or, "this particular church father (fill in with a favorite) started this doctrine at this time."

The argument is not a valid one, because we look to the first century writings to know exactly what the word teaches.

It is when we get into discussing the basis for our particular belief or doctrine that we are able to see that.

It is said by most in this thread (that have participated in it in any significant manner) that scripture does not teach that eternal punishment is eternal punishment. So the burden is on them, and you, not to just say it, but to show the basis for your statement.
Hello P1LGR1M :wave: And I'm happy to meet you too.
Yes, it always seems to be on us to prove our position right. But that's fair IMO. But as I already quoted earlier....from a Baptist to boot :) 4 of the 6 theological schools taught Universalism. But when the Catholic church disagreed they not only killed 'the heretics' but I assume, tried to destroy all of their teachings. That only makes sense doesn't it?

A scriptural basis, preferably.
That is easier to do, but only if one reads a critical text that consistently deals with the definition of just a few words. One of those words is "eternal" and the other is "hell".

And I think you do the Church of Rome an injustice, assuming that all from that Church throughout history could not have been saved. That basically says the Lord was not able to work in the hearts of those people based upon locality. Is that what you think?
I am truly sorry if I lead anyone to believe that Catholics can't be saved. I was born and baptized a RCC, but was never saved until a few years after leaving 'the church. And I fellowship today with Catholics who I truly believe are not only just 'saved'... but spirit baptized and 'tongue talking' too. :D

Of course we should all be driving Fords!
AAAAhahahahaha...I knew there'd at least be one of you out there. :hug:

Matthew 25:46
King James Version (KJV)
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If you look at the link take note of the "torment" where this word is found in 1 John 4:18.
The verse in Matthew is not dealing with unbelievers, but nations. I believe that is evidenced in verse 32.

MAT 25:32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

This judgment isn't based upon being saved/born again, but how they treated the brethren.

You are correct in listing the only two verses in the NT which include the word kolasis. That unfortunately limits scripture for contextual help with the interpretation. But William Barclay said; "Kloasis originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better." He also wrote; "I think it's true to say that in all Greek secular literature kolasis is never used for anything but remedial punishment."
 
Upvote 0

Fascinated With God

Traditional Apostolic Methodist
Aug 30, 2012
1,432
75
58
NY
✟31,259.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
I've never heard that POV...scripture please.
Well, you have heard me talk about the Outer Darkness rather than hell in the past, and you expressed surprise then too. But you never responded to my reply to your last post to me.

I'm also curious, are you saying "outer darkness" is something here and now? Or are you saying they're thrown into outer darkness in the hereafter until they realize they deserve eternal torture in hell?
As I said before, I've been won over by the arguement that hellfire destroys rather than punishes. The outer darkness does not lead to hell, quite the opposite, hell leads to the outer darkness.

I'm asking in all honesty here, I don't understand what are you really saying? And could you please back it up with scripture also?
And throw the good-for-nothing servant into the outer darkness; there will be weeping and grinding of teeth.
Matthew 25:30

Having bound his feet and hands, take him up and cast forth to the outer darkness, there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth
Matthew 22:13

but the sons of the reign shall be cast forth to the outer darkness -- there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of the teeth.
Matthew 8:12
 
Upvote 0

Fascinated With God

Traditional Apostolic Methodist
Aug 30, 2012
1,432
75
58
NY
✟31,259.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Green
Why do you insult me like this?
How is stating that you believe that 99% of Christians are dead wrong (haha) an insult rather than a statement of fact?

Why do you think that think the vast majority are idiots?
Did you mean to say, 'Why do I (FWG) believe that you (Timothew) consider most Christians to be out-to-lunch?' I certainly don't consider myself to be superior to the masses of Christianity.

When did I ever say anything like this?
So you deny that you think 99% of Christians are wrong?

I'm just pointing out what the Bible says.
Why does this bother you so much?
Doesn't bother me at all. It was just a question.

Why do you have such contempt?
Generally speaking it is the person that feels superior that has contempt.

Whether YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, I am part of the church.
I didn't say that you aren't worthy, what I actrually asked is why do you want to be a part of group that you consider to be so heavily flawed?

Your post is offensive.
This is purely ad hominem.
 
Upvote 0

Hillsage

One 4 Him & Him 4 all
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2009
5,261
1,768
The land of OZ
✟345,780.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Well, you have heard me talk about the Outer Darkness rather than hell in the past, and you expressed surprise then too. But you never responded to my reply to your last post to me.
I have to admit I don't remember this at all. I don't confess Alzheimer's....but find it a bit difficult to not admit part-timers. ;)

As I said before, I've been won over by the arguement that hellfire destroys rather than punishes. The outer darkness does not lead to hell, quite the opposite, hell leads to the outer darkness.
I too believe that fire destroys, but I also believe it destroys that which is contrary to God...that being sin...and so God destroys sin but in doing so He thereby saves sinners.

There are only three 'outer darkness' verses, and all are in Matthew. Does that make you wonder a bit? It does me. There's some other interesting things in these verses as I see them.

MAT 8:12 while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth."

Do you think ''sons of the kingdom" is symbolic of born again people? That's my take on it. And then there is this to think about on the next verse;

MAT 22:13-14 Then the king said to the attendants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and cast him into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.' 14 For many are called/kletos/saints, but few are chosen/favorites."

2822 kletos: invited ie appointed, or (spec) a saint
1588 eklektos: select; by impl. favorite

This verse seems to indicate that it is CHRISTIANS/saints who are being judged for falling short in personal sanctification subsequent to justification. What is your take? I mean how does one accidentally get into heaven, if that's what you think it is symbolizing? Question, do you believe in eternal security?

MAT 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'

This last verse seems to be talking about rewards for servants based upon works. Being a "servant" is the equivalent of being saved to me. And that would line up with the other two 'outer darkness' verses.

I'm getting a bit too many people going here, and I don't usually do well with that. I am kind of a 'one on one guy'. Could that be what happened the last time we interacted?
 
Upvote 0

dollarsbill

Well-Known Member
Jan 17, 2012
6,676
147
✟7,746.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The bible does not say or imply that the punishment of those who do not obey the gospel is eternal destruction?
It doesn't?

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Timothew said:
The issue is whether hell consists of eternal conscious torture as the traditional view says, or does hell consist of eternal destruction (death) as the annihilationists and the bible writers say.
dollarsbill said:
The problem is that the Bible doesn't say nor imply such.

Timothew said:
The bible does not say or imply that the punishment of those who do not obey the gospel is eternal destruction?

Indeed it does. "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction" (2 Thes 1:8,9)

The statement that the Bible doesn't say nor imply such is absolutely wrong.

dollarsbill said:
Originally Posted by Timothew
The bible does not say or imply that the punishment of those who do not obey the gospel is eternal destruction?
It doesn't?

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

Eternal life is a gift from God.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Site Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
65
Left coast
✟100,100.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
It doesn't?

2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 (NASB)
8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Wait for it. Wait for it.
Here comes the "eternal only means eternal when I say it means eternal" rebuttal and/or "my view agrees with Paul's letter because destruction means non-existence (annihilation) even if I cannot explain how/why non-existence needs a qualifier like "away from" something" retort.
 
Upvote 0

Norah63

Newbie
Jun 29, 2011
4,225
431
everlasting hills
✟29,579.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Mans mind replacing God, is humanism pure and simple.
Thats why some are always saying what the bible means.....instead of letting the word sink in
Just as given.
Humanism will always fail, yet it is too stubborn to quit trying. Pride goes before a fall.
The entrance of the Word gives light.
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Mans mind replacing God, is humanism pure and simple.
Thats why some are always saying what the bible means.....instead of letting the word sink in
Just as given.
Humanism will always fail, yet it is too stubborn to quit trying. Pride goes before a fall.
The entrance of the Word gives light.

Which side are you referring to?
The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, Why not let these words sink in, Just as given?
Why change them to mean "The wages of sin is eternal torture in hell"?
 
Upvote 0

strangertoo

sin is diabolical abuse of fellow humans-1John 3:8
Nov 2, 2011
2,337
15
UK
Visit site
✟25,141.00
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Private
Politics
UK-Greens
As I said before, I've been won over by the arguement that hellfire destroys rather than punishes. The outer darkness does not lead to hell, quite the opposite, hell leads to the outer darkness.

that's a little progress perhaps... now all you need to see evenytually is what the fire is , what hell is, and where the outer darkness leads , to repentance and translation , because Love of God is for all ... outer darkness is only to persuade men to simply try Love and so know God and Christ, and be saved by finding Love works , nothing else does works so well for all men...

some helpful scriptures in your journey perhaps :-

1 Peter 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:

1 Peter 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Mark 9:49 For every one shall be salted with fire

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire:

Revelation 20:13 ... death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire

Revelation 1:18 I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

Philippians 2:9 [Rotherham] Wherefore also, God, uplifted him far on high, and favoured him with the name which is above every name,—
10 In order that, in the name of Jesus, every knee might bow—of beings in heaven, and on earth, and underground,—
11 And, every tongue, might openly confess—that Jesus Christ is, Lord, unto the glory of God the Father.

as for the horrendous mistranslations in the KJV that are simply copied into many other versions, perhaps Rotherham's translation can help somewhat... else one has to deal with them all individually or be deluded with the masses - Rev 13:3-4 ...
 
Upvote 0

Timothew

Conditionalist
Aug 24, 2009
9,659
844
✟36,554.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
As I said before, I've been won over by the argument that hellfire destroys rather than punishes.

I have as well, the biblical evidence that the wicked are finally destroyed rather than eternally tortured is overwhelming. Although I would say that the final destruction of the unrepentant is the punishment.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.