Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[jakael02]

I agree with you, and I would add that being cast into the Outer Darkness is not what you are I would consider torment. Boring, yes, but tormented? No. Being deprived of victims to feed off of is the real reason they are tormented. These are the kind of people who can't rest at night unless they know they have screwed somebody over that day.

Yep, good point. Our souls were created for God, so when we 100% reject him, we become and obtain the exact opposite of our nature. This has various ways to describe it.

 

[jakael02]

If Peter or John had only written something down, then we would know what the early church was like, and we wouldn't have to take the word of Romans who lived centuries later to tell us.

The fallacy here is that it denys Sacred Tradition and is rooted in Solo Scriptura.

 

[strangertoo]

I agree with you, and I would add that being cast into the Outer Darkness is not what you are I would consider torment. Boring, yes, but tormented? No. Being deprived of victims to feed off of is the real reason they are tormented. These are the kind of people who can't rest at night unless they know they have screwed somebody over that day.

... nice insight into the 'poetry' of scripture that few can yet understand [Matt 7:13-14] and so are very needful of Love...

outer darkness comes from inner blindness , even to blindness of denial to all of one's own conscience , heart of Love, spirit, mind ... it is easily the worst torment, but one only LEARNS how to torment oneself by following the world, not by following Christ , the ONLY way OUT of physicality to the ONE spirit of God where there can be no division, no torment, just another creation , endlessly more creations that all must end as they began, as nothing [and the spirit unchangeable , unchanged ...perfect, incorruptible, un-destroyable , ONE... NOTHING else exists endlessly , there is no god with God who is not God... no creation opposes God endlessly , they all end... no creation does not end ,,, all evil is PHYSICAL , it ends... ALL torment is physical because the spirit CANNOT change and is ONE , no division, no conflict , no damage, no strain...

thus look to the mistranslation and misrepresentation of scripture to understand how mass religion is DIVIDED and thus FALSE, God is NOT ...

God can and will show all folks the Truth -Joel 2:28, John 16:13, but FEW wait for spirit baptism to KNOW all Truth from God, not men [Jer 31:31-34] and so be UNITED in one Truth of God UNLIKE religion of men's diverse traditions...

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

 

[jakael02]

I always end up coming away with the peace that if such things were essential for us to come to saving knowledge and relationship with God then God would have made sure they were readily available to everyone.

I see what your saying. I would agrue God did make sure the full deposit of faith readily available to us through his Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit used the apostles and their successors as the official organ for divine revelation. I'd state the comment assumes all "essentials" are based in Scripture alone and the "essentials" are self-evident to any 'saved' reader. Your take? James

 

[Soulgazer]

I see what your saying. I would agrue God did make sure the full deposit of faith readily available to us through his Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit used the apostles and their successors as the official organ for divine revelation. I'd state the comment assumes all "essentials" are based in Scripture alone and the "essentials" are self-evident to any 'saved' reader. Your take? James

I would argue that the right hand should not know what the left hand is doing. I may be versed in the critical history, but I "believe"(first century connotation "follow") confessional history. Facts are never very inspiring.

 

[strangertoo]

I see what your saying. I would agrue God did make sure the full deposit of faith readily available to us through his Holy Spirit. The holy Spirit used the apostles and their successors as the official organ for divine revelation. I'd state the comment assumes all "essentials" are based in Scripture alone and the "essentials" are self-evident to any 'saved' reader. Your take? James

...it is CERTAIN that scripture is both edited and mistranslated ... all the best supposed 'copies' and versions are DIFFERENT ...

thus it is CERTAIN that scripture is NOT the authority of Truth of od because Satan has altered it every way he can without it losig credibility to the gullible who accept it without caution of examining and reflecting upon i with God...

EQUALLY it cannot be what you claim because it states ITSELF that God's spirit will teach all who are His - John 16:13. Heb 8:10-11

thus one can choose between belief in mangled scripture modified by Satan that produced DIVIDED religion of SINNERS , or WAITING for the baptism of the spirit to know all Truth from God Himself... ONE Truth, indefilable

God will baptise all flesh [Joel 2:28] , but obviously all men are NOT baptised of the spirit in THIS life [John 16:13] , FEW know the way of Love , most die still unLoving, sinners

and your assertion that this is NOT what God wants is false too :-

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

Matthew 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

Thus I would recommend a change in METHODOLOGY to UNDERSTAND that even scripture says SPIRIT BAPTISM is the ONLY way to know the Truth of God... as Jesus promised ALL who obey him ... all who Love...

but Love means stopping ALL sin... sin is abuse ,not Love...

FEW are ready yet to stop sinning , MOST follow Satan to death for sin
Matt 7:13-14

1 John 3:6 ... whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil

1 John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Thus it is a choice whether one keeps oneself by Love of all others all the time or still desires to sin [as Satan will tempt one with whatever sin one desires to sin, but it will only lead to misery eventually, Satan really is a liar]

so that is all which comes of THIS earth, a few saints, billions of sinners...
and mass religion claims that is all , the many are LOST [by diverse means claimed ironically by SINNERS! , those NOT baptised of the spirit!]

one has to laugh or cry at how pathetic is divided religion of men's traditions, ego defeating men's conscience, eyes, heart of Love, mind, spirit simply by desire to abuse with sin... stubbornness and lack of grace to accept that one is BOUND to be WRONG if one DECIDES what to believe before being brought by God in humility to accept His truth in spirit baptism simply by ceasing to believe in sin, in Satan...

 

[Soulgazer]

The fallacy here is that it denys Sacred Tradition and is rooted in Solo Scriptura.

Or maybe rather than a fallacy, we should say that the spirit of truth denies tradition and the sixteenth century adoption of Solo Scriptura?

After all, if Paul, Jude, James, et al had believed in Solo Scriptura we wouldn't have those wonderful letters?

 

[P1LGR1M]

Barnabas believed that Hyenas changed sex twice a year and Weasels conceived with their mouths.

Now you knew I was going to have to ask: you know this...how? lol

If someone doesn't know the nature of the seen, how then can they claim knowledge of the unseen?

A great question. I guess we would have to take it on faith that the source for our faith is trustworthy...right?

The seen is a reflection of the unseen---

I am curious as to what hyenas are a reflection of.

to misunderstand the reflection is to guarantee a misunderstanding of the cause.

And what would the word of God...reflect?

This last statement is really the only erious question, just working on my humor in the previous (how am I doing by the way? lol). And this last quote also I am being serious...

I've had numerous people claim to me that the earth is but 6000 years old. The Lord speaks in my ear, that they ought naught be talking but listening.

Well, I have to say you have me at a disadvantage, I have never had the Lord speak audibly to me.

However, He does speak to me through His word, and guessing that my confession as a YECist may have prompted this remark?

I guess a thread would need to be generated to look at this issue, and I have to confess that it is a personal belief, and this takes a backseat to issues such as the one at hand, which I believe to be doing quite a bit of harm. Once I get through with this thread, though, be happy to look at what it is that puts your faith in an (extremely) ancient earth.

God bless.

 

[Timothew]

I've often thought about the things you just mentioned. I always end up coming away with the peace that if such things were essential for us to come to saving knowledge and relationship with God then God would have made sure they were readily available to everyone. Because if they aren't, then who really is responsible for anyone not coming to whatever is essential. We can say it is 'the churches' responsibility, but it isn't the church that, as orthodoxy believes, tortures those poor uninformed souls for eternity.

I'm actally saying that we have these lettters. We just call them the New Testament. If a church has a tradition (such as eternal torture in hell) that contradicts what we find in the NT, we aren't obligated to believe them. They have strayed from what the Apostles taught.

 

[Timothew]

If you think that Christianity is so flawed then why do you fight so hard to be considered the one true Christian? Why bother if you think that the vast majority of Christians are such idiots? Why do you feel the need to be a part of a group that you have so much contempt for?

Why do you insult me like this?
Why do you think that think the vast majority are idiots?
When did I ever say anything like this?
A few people brought their ideas into the church and influenceed it in the wrong direction. It's up to people who read the Bible to bring it back to Apostolic teaching.

I'm just pointing out what the Bible says.
Why does this bother you so much?
Why do you have such contempt?
Whether YOU LIKE IT OR NOT, I am part of the church.

Your post is offensive.

 

[Timothew]

The fallacy here is that it denys Sacred Tradition and is rooted in Solo Scriptura.

There is no fallacy here.

Sola Scriptura or NOT, if something is taught that is not part of true Christianity, that is: What the apostles taught, then we have a duty to get rid of it.

 

[Timothew]

Or maybe rather than a fallacy, we should say that the spirit of truth denies tradition and the sixteenth century adoption of Solo Scriptura?

After all, if Paul, Jude, James, et al had believed in Solo Scriptura we wouldn't have those wonderful letters?

We do have those letters. They are called the New Testament.

 

[Soulgazer]

We do have those letters. They are called the New Testament.

Yup, and that's how we know they didn't practice Solo Scriptura!

 

[P1LGR1M]

Hello strangertoo, not sure we have had a chance to talk yet, but nice to meet you. The following is a little choppy, so I hope you might clarify a few things for.

... nice insight into the 'poetry' of scripture that few can yet understand [Matt 7:13-14] and so are very needful of Love...

Do you not take this at face value?


Matthew 7:13-14

King James Version (KJV)


13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.



I fail to see how classifying it poetry negates the clear teaching.

outer darkness comes from inner blindness ,

So the "children of the kingdom," the "invited guest," and the unprofitable servant" cast themselves out?

Again, the teachiing seems fairly easy to discern.

even to blindness of denial to all of one's own conscience , heart of Love, spirit, mind ...

The problem with making a universal position out of something is that oftentimes one will negate other teachings. For instance: should we "deny" our conscience when it speaks to us? Should we not add to knowledge self control, and to self control...meekness?

I have no idea why we would deny a heart of love, perhaps you could explain that one too?

it is easily the worst torment, but one only LEARNS how to torment oneself by following the world, not by following Christ ,

As in your advice to another member, I might suggest italics rather than capitalization...you might make someone think you are SHOUTING. lol (just yanking your chain, strangertoo).

What does this have to do with eternal torment?

And I would suggst to you that following the world caters to the rebellious heart, rather than bring it to a state of repentance. Many people are quite happy to live as they please. And the world has a great track record of convincing the unregenerate that this is the way to go. Party on...right?

the ONLY way OUT of physicality to the ONE spirit of God where there can be no division, no torment, just another creation ,

I would agree salvation in Christ is the only means to God when we leave this physical creation, but not sure what you are speaking of when you mention "just another creation?"

endlessly more creations that all must end as they began, as nothing [and the spirit unchangeable , unchanged ...perfect, incorruptible, un-destroyable , ONE... NOTHING else exists endlessly ,

Do you refer to spirits, or The Spirit?

there is no god with God who is not God...

There is no god with God who is a god...at all.

There is but One God.

no creation opposes God endlessly ,

Those whooppose God will be separated from God and confined in the Lake of Fire...eternally.

Do you have anything that suggests a spirit dies?

Be glad to look at that.

they all end...

According to who? What?

no creation does not end ,,,

?

As I said, a little choppy.

all evil is PHYSICAL , it ends...

All evil is physical?

We would have to take the use of "heart" to be literal to come to that conclusion.

ALL torment is physical because the spirit CANNOT change and is ONE , no division, no conflict , no damage, no strain...

Again, what spirit is referred to here?

And how does this jibe with...

outer darkness comes from inner blindness

Is "inner blindness" physical?

thus look to the mistranslation and misrepresentation of scripture to understand how mass religion is DIVIDED and thus FALSE, God is NOT ...

We do, of a certainty, look at the misinterpretation and misrepresentation of scripture, but "mistranslation" is not very common.

This error is the greatest source of religion I believe we will find.

God can and will show all folks the Truth -Joel 2:28,

Correction...
Joel 2:28

King James Version (KJV)


28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:


...God will show His people the truth. And while there will be those who "come" to the knowledge of the truth, that does not mean they embrace it.

John 16:13,

John 16:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.



Again, this does not teach that "God will show all folks the truth."

It speaks of believers and if we go through John 13-17, we will see it speaks of a future fulfillment, namely, to begin at Pentecost.

but FEW wait for spirit baptism to KNOW all Truth from God,

And those who do do not realize that if they are saved, born again...there is no "waiting period."

not men [Jer 31:31-34] and so be UNITED in one Truth of God UNLIKE religion of men's diverse traditions...

Well, I always try to speak to people on an individual basis, and understand first what they believe before deciding they are merely religious.

Concerning Jeremiah 31:31-34...


Jeremiah 31:31-34

King James Version (KJV)


31 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.




...you realize this speaks of the New Covenant, right? When Israel like we are today come under the New Covenant in the Millennial Kingdom, they will not ask every man their brother. But, we do not see a universal salvation as we progress into the Millennial Kingdom, as there will still be those that will reject Christ, and be destroyed at the end of the Kingdom.

All who enter will be saved, seeing that the wicked are destroyed from off of the face of the earth at the end of the Tribulation. In this is fulfilled that which is written, "and so shall all Israel be saved."

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

"Tradition" is not a dirty word, you know. First, see what "tradition of men" resulted in, and I think it could be safe to say...came from:


Mark 7:3-9

King James Version (KJV)


3 For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

4 And when they come from the market, except they wash, they eat not. And many other things there be, which they have received to hold, as the washing of cups, and pots, brasen vessels, and of tables.

5 Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands?

6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.

7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.

9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.



We see the Lord make it clear that traditions of men "lay aside the commandment of God," as well as reject it, making it not just a matter of simply not performing, but in in one's heart rejecting them outright.

And the inevitable result is...
Mark 7:13

King James Version (KJV)


13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.



Now we can see the Lord severely rebukes them for adhering to the traditions of their fathers and He makes the statement...


6 He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.


Now what He has just done is validate the word of God is to be a basis of tradition, that if tradition does not correspond to the word of God, that tradition (which is seen here in this case as worship)...is vain. It is empty.

Now lets compare that with tradition that is desirable:



2 Thessalonians 2:12-15

King James Version (KJV)


12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.


1-the damned will be, in the Tribulation, given over to strong delusion. They have already made their choice, which is to reject truth and have pleasure in unrighteousness.

2-Those that are saved are saved by sanctification of the Spirit of God and belief of the truth.

Now what truth is it he speaks of? We could go back to the beginning of Colossians 2...

Colossians 2

King James Version (KJV)


1 For I would that ye knew what great conflict I have for you, and for them at Laodicea, and for as many as have not seen my face in the flesh;

2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;


Paul was concerned about their acknowledgement of the Mystery of God. And that is a great conversation there, but back to the text:

3-They were called by "their gospel." Again, the word of God is in view.

4-And in v.15 we see that they exhort them to stand fast and hold the traditions they have been taught, whether by word or by epistle.


What this seems to say is that tradition must be measured against the word of God. If it lays aside His commandment, then we know it to be false. But if it is in accordance to that which is taught in the word of God, well, who can speak against it.

The question is do we bother to measure our own traditions, to see if they resemble the traditions of men, or the commandment of God?

A difficult question for us to answer sometimes.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Yup, and that's how we know they didn't practice Solo Scriptura!

Not to be critical again, but I don't think anyone has ever practiced "solo scriptura." (and you need to direct me to where you got you "winking smiley," that happens to be my favorite)

By the way, how's it going today?

God bless.

 

[Hillsage]

Why are they uniformed? The whole point of waiting so long to cast them into the Outer Darkness is to make sure that their decision is fully informed and of their own consent and not a decision made under duress.

I've never heard that POV...scripture please.

I'm also curious, are you saying "outer darkness" is something here and now? Or are you saying they're thrown into outer darkness in the hereafter until they realize they deserve eternal torture in hell? I'm asking in all honesty here, I don't understand what are you really saying? And could you please back it up with scripture also?

 

[P1LGR1M]

This quote would come from someone who believes the 'orthodox view'. They believe God to be a worse despot than Hitler, in that there is no death or punishment in hell, only endless dying and endless punishing. Death/punishment are nouns and have a defined end.

There are three main beliefs concerning hell.
1. Orthodox view: Eternal punitive torture for no purpose at all which is sadism...bold mine.
2. Annihilation ism view: Which believes the purpose of the fire is to burn up or to destroy the individual. A much kinder view of the God of love.
3. Ultimate reconciliation view: This view believes that all judgment is redemptive and purgative/purifying in purpose. It believes that God's plan to save His creation was just that, a plan to save ALL His creation. Even though this plan may not culminate until the end of the ages. And this view believes that God wins...and not the Devil.

Below is an interesting quote, coming from a Baptist no less.

German Baptist - Philip Schaff writes :

“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.” ( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book House, 1950, p. 96.)


If you notice, the only school to believe in eternal torture was in Rome...guess what church came out of Rome? It then made the decision that anyone who disagreed with them was a heretic and killed them...all in LOVE of course.

If 'the first church' is the only correct church, then we should all be driving FORDS....

Hello Hillsage, nice to meet you.

Time and time again the argument is offered that "this is a new doctrine," or, "this particular church father (fill in with a favorite) started this doctrine at this time."

The argument is not a valid one, because we look to the first century writings to know exactly what the word teaches.

It is when we get into discussing the basis for our particular belief or doctrine that we are able to see that.

It is said by most in this thread (that have participated in it in any significant manner) that scripture does not teach that eternal punishment is eternal punishment. So the burden is on them, and you, not to just say it, but to show the basis for your statement.

A scriptural basis, preferably.

And I think you do the Church of Rome an injustice, assuming that all from that Church throughout history could not have been saved. That basically says the Lord was not able to work in the hearts of those people based upon locality. Is that what you think?

And finally, I have to say something about this...

If 'the first church' is the only correct church, then we should all be driving FORDS....

Of course we should all be driving Fords!

lol

Again, nice to meet you. I will just leave you with one verse for you to explain:

Matthew 25:46

King James Version (KJV)


46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



If you look at the link take note of the "torment" where this word is found in 1 John 4:18.

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Oh, if only there were letters written by people who walked and talked with Jesus while he was alive. If we had letters like that, maybe we could tell what Jesus said, and what he did. Maybe we could read a letter that describes what happened in the early churches. If Peter or John had only written something down, then we would know what the early church was like, and we wouldn't have to take the word of Romans who lived centuries later to tell us.

They did, and we don't.

Are you saying that you reject Peter and John as the writer's of the epistles that bear their name?

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

Well, we do have four or five letters of Paul that are more or less acknowledged universally as genuine; This is enough to tell us that Paul acknowledged Jesus to be a real personage, though the meaning of his teachings are filtered through his world view, and whatever alterations are added in later.
It is a comfort to know that though additions were often added to letters to support whatever doctrine, it was almost entirely unknown to have verses removed intentionally. Thus by identifying the time period that doctrines were known to have existed, the additions can be removed restoring the letters somewhat to their original form. Alterations in meaning are somewhat dicier, as the RSV records in a footnote that earlier versions of Luke record the Baptismal as the voice from heaven saying "in thee I am well pleased, this day I have begotten thee". I imagine this later alteration came about for more consistency with the doctrine of Jesus being God's Son from His birth.
It is also true that the original version of the Gospel of John was missing the encounter with the prostitute and her accusers. This was probably present in a now lost Gospel, and someone felt that the story was too good not to keep.
The Gospel of Thomas was probably started around fifty AD, and reached it's present form in the second century. By then the thomasine church was on it's way out the door.
Mark, originally ended at the cross. Matthew came later out of Antioch, and was more Jewish in origin, though by someone not really familiar with the books of the prophets, so probably not a rabbi. It was also reactionary in places to Pauline teachings.
Marcion's "Gospel of the Lord" he claimed to have been given to his father, the bishop of Sinop, by Paul, and if true would be the very Gospel that Paul said he did not receive from the hands of men.. It is probably also the basis for "Luke"'s Gospel, as the author himself attests to in his first two verses, making whatever additions he deemed needed to bring it into line with doctrine.


All in all there is enough smoke to indicate the presence of a fire, and to lead one to the indwelling Christ.

How exactly do you know this to be true? Again we go back to the simple fact that History has far many more hands in it than scripture does. Does it not occur to you that perhaps some of the men that have villified scripture have done so for one purpose: to undermine the word of God?

There are issues concerning manuscripts that have to be addressed, to be sure, but, when we look at the collective body, how much doctrine is changed by the differences we find?

God bless.

 

[P1LGR1M]

You may disagree, as is your right. You would however, be arguing from confessional history, which has no basis in critical history.

And Critical History has no basis in scripture.

If one wants to reject the word of God, one need not look far for support, for the world itself is against the word of God and it is no wonder "higher learning" has come full circle to the state it is today.

God bless.