Why do some people think Hell isn't real?

[P1LGR1M]

Did I say that?

Read it again:

I told you what the bible says. Nothing I said was anything other than what the bible says. The bible is the word of God. Feel free to disagree, for a while.

All of the confusion results from one thing. You believe that destruction doesn't really mean destruction. The serpent said "surely you will not die". That is the same thing as "surely destruction doesn't really mean destruction."

But I will never convince you, you will have to see it for yourself, and you will.

I will have to see destruction for myself?

Only you can say what was in your heart when you typed it, Timothew, it is of more significance to you.

No.

I hope so, for your sake.

So why are you putting those words in my mouth?

Not my words...I added nothing. If we took a vote, how many would see it as a poorly veiled threat?

Nevertheless, Timothew, I will take your word for it, okay? Now if I could just get you to actually answer the issues that have been raised...then I would be happy.

Are you saying that you like kittens?

As long as they do not have fleas...yes. And...as long as they belong to someone else.

My dog, you see, does not like kittens.

I am not judging you to be in danger of hellfire.

[/quote]

But perhaps you might be a little more careful with your wording next time, right?

That is the only reason why I asked.

Here is what I AM saying. You don't believe destruction means destruction.

Apparently you are not bothering to read the posts, or you would not bring such false witness conmcerning my testimony.

What you still fail to recognize is that destruction does not carry the annihilationists understanding when eternal judgment is in view.

It is your understanding of destruction that varies from mine, not whether destruction will take place or not.

I have answered your question and statements in detail, and all I get in return is the same thing repeated over and over. Repeatedly stating something does not make it true.

You have failed to comment on the issue of physical versus spiritual life. I have in many posts shown the need for contextual clarity in discerning between the two. When we get into your Old Testament proof-texts, we will see that as well as the use of the word "soul" in the Bible.

So all in all, we are just getting into this discussion. But, you have supplied me with enough to carry on the conversation without you in order that others moght see the weakness of the presentation given, and hopefully, someone out there...will get it.

You can not believe me your whole life. You can go your whole life saying that God is going to torture sinners in hell forever.

That's a stretch, don't you think? lol

First, how long I believe you is irrelevant, unless convenient of course.

Secondly, I have never said "God tortures," that is the straw man you have constructed.

THird (while I am in it), all men are sinners, and we have to distinguish between those saved and those who will be lost. But in the present tense there is still a future tense, so we should be busy about warning every man...lol.

But on Judgment Day when you see with your very own eyes that God isn't torturing anyone in hell and he isn't going to, then you will no longer be able to deny the truth.

Again, a false premise, for I do not view the punishment of the wicked in any way shape or form to be God "torturing people." Your baggage, not mine.

God bless.

 

[jakael02]

I've missed most of this thread. What is the most recent tension people are discussing regarding Hell?

"It's God's love that lights the flames of Hell." -Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen

 

[Timothew]

I've missed most of this thread. What is the most recent tension people are discussing regarding Hell?

"It's God's love that lights the flames of Hell." -Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen

The issue is whether hell consists of eternal conscious torture as the traditional view says, or does hell consist of eternal destruction (death) as the annihilationists and the bible writers say.

You can see my POV. This is the tension.

If there is a hell of eternal conscious torment, then it was designed that way by God. Only Sadists torture other people. So there is a logical disconnect. Is God good or is God a sadistic torturer?

The debate gets heated as you can see from this post.

According to the bible, the wages of sin is death.
According to the traditional view, death doesn't really mean death.

And according to my signature, people either receive eternal life, or they perish. That's also according to John 3:16, and the rest of the bible. Over and over the bible promises that the wicked will perish and will be no more. That isn't enough for some people, there must be torment, and it must last forever, and it must be inflicted on other people besides themselves, and it must be done in the name of love.

Some of us find this revolting. And none of us can find this in the Bible.

 

[dollarsbill]

, or does hell consist of eternal destruction (death) as the annihilationists and the bible writers say.

The problem is that the Bible doesn't say nor imply such.

After the second death:

Rev 20
"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."

 

[DrBubbaLove]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, 110 AD

Do not err, my brethren. (James 1:16) Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.
CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)



The "Second Epistle" of St. Clement (mid 2nd century)

For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments.
...
It is of the great day of judgment He speaks, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ. The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.
CHURCH FATHERS: The "Second Epistle" (Pseudo-Clement)



The First Apology (St Justin Martyr - mid second century)

And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments.
...
And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.
...
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.
CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

 

[Timothew]

The problem is that the Bible doesn't say nor imply such.

After the second death:

Rev 20
"They shall be tormented day and night forever and ever."

The bible does not say or imply that the punishment of those who do not obey the gospel is eternal destruction?

Indeed it does. "dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction" (2 Thes 1:8,9)

The statement that the Bible doesn't say nor imply such is absolutely wrong. The statement that the lost can be tormented day and night AFTER they have died the second death is also wrong, because according to the bible the dead know nothing and are no more.
Ecclesiates 9:5, Psalm 37:10

 

[Timothew]

The Epistle of Ignatius to the Ephesians, 110 AD

Do not err, my brethren. (James 1:16) Those that corrupt families shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10) If, then, those who do this as respects the flesh have suffered death, how much more shall this be the case with any one who corrupts by wicked doctrine the faith of God, for which Jesus Christ was crucified! Such an one becoming defiled [in this way], shall go away into everlasting fire, and so shall every one that hearkens unto him.
CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle to the Ephesians (St. Ignatius)



The "Second Epistle" of St. Clement (mid 2nd century)

For if we do the will of Christ, we shall find rest; otherwise, nothing shall deliver us from eternal punishment, if we disobey His commandments.
...
It is of the great day of judgment He speaks, when they shall see those among us who were guilty of ungodliness and erred in their estimate of the commands of Jesus Christ. The righteous, having succeeded both in enduring the trials and hating the indulgences of the soul, whenever they witness how those who have swerved and denied Jesus by words or deeds are punished with grievous torments in fire unquenchable, will give glory to their God and say, There will be hope for him who has served God with his whole heart.
CHURCH FATHERS: The "Second Epistle" (Pseudo-Clement)



The First Apology (St Justin Martyr - mid second century)

And more than all other men are we your helpers and allies in promoting peace, seeing that we hold this view, that it is alike impossible for the wicked, the covetous, the conspirator, and for the virtuous, to escape the notice of God, and that each man goes to everlasting punishment or salvation according to the value of his actions. For if all men knew this, no one would choose wickedness even for a little, knowing that he goes to the everlasting punishment of fire; but would by all means restrain himself, and adorn himself with virtue, that he might obtain the good gifts of God, and escape the punishments.
...
And we have learned that those only are deified who have lived near to God in holiness and virtue; and we believe that those who live wickedly and do not repent are punished in everlasting fire.
...
He shall come from heaven with glory, accompanied by His angelic host, when also He shall raise the bodies of all men who have lived, and shall clothe those of the worthy with immortality, and shall send those of the wicked, endued with eternal sensibility, into everlasting fire with the wicked devils.
CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

Ignatius and Clement are not saying anything that opposes conditionalism.
Justin does, but he makes an error. He says that the wicked are "endued with eternal sensibility." The bible never says nor implies that. According to the bible, the wicked will perish. (Psalm 37:20, But the wicked will perish)

 

[Soulgazer]

Barnabas believed that Hyenas changed sex twice a year and Weasels conceived with their mouths. If someone doesn't know the nature of the seen, how then can they claim knowledge of the unseen? The seen is a reflection of the unseen---to misunderstand the reflection is to guarantee a misunderstanding of the cause. I've had numerous people claim to me that the earth is but 6000 years old. The Lord speaks in my ear, that they ought naught be talking but listening.

 

[Hillsage]

I've missed most of this thread. What is the most recent tension people are discussing regarding Hell?

"It's God's love that lights the flames of Hell." -Venerable Archbishop Fulton Sheen

This quote would come from someone who believes the 'orthodox view'. They believe God to be a worse despot than Hitler, in that there is no death or punishment in hell, only endless dying and endless punishing. Death/punishment are nouns and have a defined end.

There are three main beliefs concerning hell.
1. Orthodox view: Eternal punitive torture for no purpose at all which is sadism...bold mine.
2. Annihilation ism view: Which believes the purpose of the fire is to burn up or to destroy the individual. A much kinder view of the God of love.
3. Ultimate reconciliation view: This view believes that all judgment is redemptive and purgative/purifying in purpose. It believes that God's plan to save His creation was just that, a plan to save ALL His creation. Even though this plan may not culminate until the end of the ages. And this view believes that God wins...and not the Devil.

Below is an interesting quote, coming from a Baptist no less.

German Baptist - Philip Schaff writes :

“In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six known theological schools, of which four (Alexandria…Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is unknown.” ( The New Schaff-Herzog Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge – Vol XII, Baker Book House, 1950, p. 96.)


If you notice, the only school to believe in eternal torture was in Rome...guess what church came out of Rome? It then made the decision that anyone who disagreed with them was a heretic and killed them...all in LOVE of course.

If 'the first church' is the only correct church, then we should all be driving FORDS....

 

[Soulgazer]

If 'the first church' is the only correct church, then we should all be driving FORDS....

There is a difference between confessional history and critical history. Confessional history is what a nation or religious institution tells it's followers. Critical history is what really happened, pieced together as best as possible.
I'm not picking on the Catholic church, other than they were the only Christian Church to be an arm of Government for a thousand years.

The confessional history of any denomination is that there is an unbroken line from Jesus to them. Critical history says that Christianity was fractured almost from it's inception, until catholicism attempted to rebuild it in their image to establish a one Roman world religion.

Reading the various gospels in the light of the differing beliefs of the religions of the authors is very enlightening.

Also, to acknowledge that the words of an Emperor cannot help but to sway religious opinion, we can trace some modern belief back to the words of one man many still considered as a god:

Chapter 7. In regard to Things above our Comprehension, we should glorify the Creator's Wisdom, and attribute their Causes to him alone, and not to Chance.

In fact, this word chance is the expression of men who think in haphazard and illogical fashion; who are unable to understand the causes of these things, and who, owing to the feebleness of their own apprehensions, conceive that those things for which they cannot assign a reason, are ordered without reason. There are, unquestionably, some things which possess wonderful natural properties, and the full apprehension of which is very difficult: for example, the nature of hot springs. For no one can easily explain the cause of so powerful a fire; and it is indeed surprising that though surrounded on all sides by a body of cold water, it loses none of its native heat. These phenomena appear to be of rare occurrence throughout the world, being intended, I am persuaded, to afford to mankind convincing evidence of the power of that Providence which ordains that two directly opposite natures, heat and cold, should thus proceed from the self-same source. Many indeed, yea, numberless, are the gifts which God has bestowed for the comfort and enjoyment of man; and of these the fruit of the olive-tree and the vine deserve special notice; the one for its power of renovating and cheering the soul, the other because it ministers to our enjoyment, and is likewise adapted for the cure of bodily disease. Marvelous, too, is the course of rivers, flowing night and day with unceasing motion, and presenting a type of ever-flowing, never-ceasing life: and equally wonderful is the alternate succession of day and night.

 

[Timothew]

Oh, if only there were letters written by people who walked and talked with Jesus while he was alive. If we had letters like that, maybe we could tell what Jesus said, and what he did. Maybe we could read a letter that describes what happened in the early churches. If Peter or John had only written something down, then we would know what the early church was like, and we wouldn't have to take the word of Romans who lived centuries later to tell us.

 

[Soulgazer]

Oh, if only there were letters written by people who walked and talked with Jesus while he was alive. If we had letters like that, maybe we could tell what Jesus said, and what he did. Maybe we could read a letter that describes what happened in the early churches. If Peter or John had only written something down, then we would know what the early church was like, and we wouldn't have to take the word of Romans who lived centuries later to tell us.

Well, we do have four or five letters of Paul that are more or less acknowledged universally as genuine; This is enough to tell us that Paul acknowledged Jesus to be a real personage, though the meaning of his teachings are filtered through his world view, and whatever alterations are added in later.
It is a comfort to know that though additions were often added to letters to support whatever doctrine, it was almost entirely unknown to have verses removed intentionally. Thus by identifying the time period that doctrines were known to have existed, the additions can be removed restoring the letters somewhat to their original form. Alterations in meaning are somewhat dicier, as the RSV records in a footnote that earlier versions of Luke record the Baptismal as the voice from heaven saying "in thee I am well pleased, this day I have begotten thee". I imagine this later alteration came about for more consistency with the doctrine of Jesus being God's Son from His birth.
It is also true that the original version of the Gospel of John was missing the encounter with the prostitute and her accusers. This was probably present in a now lost Gospel, and someone felt that the story was too good not to keep.
The Gospel of Thomas was probably started around fifty AD, and reached it's present form in the second century. By then the thomasine church was on it's way out the door.
Mark, originally ended at the cross. Matthew came later out of Antioch, and was more Jewish in origin, though by someone not really familiar with the books of the prophets, so probably not a rabbi. It was also reactionary in places to Pauline teachings.
Marcion's "Gospel of the Lord" he claimed to have been given to his father, the bishop of Sinop, by Paul, and if true would be the very Gospel that Paul said he did not receive from the hands of men.. It is probably also the basis for "Luke"'s Gospel, as the author himself attests to in his first two verses, making whatever additions he deemed needed to bring it into line with doctrine.


All in all there is enough smoke to indicate the presence of a fire, and to lead one to the indwelling Christ.

 

[jakael02]

Critical history says that Christianity was fractured almost from it's inception, until catholicism attempted to rebuild it in their image to establish a one Roman world religion.

I'd disagree here. Heretics did flourish, but the aposttles stayed united in belief and practice while simultaneous passing the belief and practice along to their successors. The implicit belief & practice became more explicit overtime. I'd argue it was never "rebuilt". Kindly -James

 

[jakael02]

This quote would come from someone who believes the 'orthodox view'. They believe God to be a worse despot than Hitler, in that there is no death or punishment in hell, only endless dying and endless punishing. Death/punishment are nouns and have a defined end.

This may be a stretch of the quote. Comparing God to hitler. People "choose" hell.

People who are in hell are there because they chose to go there. They wanted to go to hell. People turn away from God by choices they make. In this way they choose to enter the fire of hell where they burn away all connection to God. They committ choice that is against God, God’s Commandments, God’s Will, singes God’s image in us…They become one with hell even while they have their body. At death they go on as they were when they had a body.

 

[Hillsage]

Oh, if only there were letters written by people who walked and talked with Jesus while he was alive. If we had letters like that, maybe we could tell what Jesus said, and what he did. Maybe we could read a letter that describes what happened in the early churches. If Peter or John had only written something down, then we would know what the early church was like, and we wouldn't have to take the word of Romans who lived centuries later to tell us.

I've often thought about the things you just mentioned. I always end up coming away with the peace that if such things were essential for us to come to saving knowledge and relationship with God then God would have made sure they were readily available to everyone. Because if they aren't, then who really is responsible for anyone not coming to whatever is essential. We can say it is 'the churches' responsibility, but it isn't the church that, as orthodoxy believes, tortures those poor uninformed souls for eternity.

 

[Fascinated With God]

This may be a stretch of the quote. Comparing God to hitler. People "choose" hell.

People who are in hell are there because they chose to go there. They wanted to go to hell. People turn away from God by choices they make. In this way they choose to enter the fire of hell where they burn away all connection to God. They committ choice that is against God, God’s Commandments, God’s Will, singes God’s image in us…They become one with hell even while they have their body. At death they go on as they were when they had a body.

I agree with you, and I would add that being cast into the Outer Darkness is not what you are I would consider torment. Boring, yes, but tormented? No. Being deprived of victims to feed off of is the real reason they are tormented. These are the kind of people who can't rest at night unless they know they have screwed somebody over that day.

 

[Fascinated With God]

tortures those poor uninformed souls for eternity.

Why are they uniformed? The whole point of waiting so long to cast them into the Outer Darkness is to make sure that their decision is fully informed and of their own consent and not a decision made under duress.

 

[Fascinated With God]

Oh, if only there were letters written by people who walked and talked with Jesus while he was alive. If we had letters like that, maybe we could tell what Jesus said, and what he did. Maybe we could read a letter that describes what happened in the early churches. If Peter or John had only written something down, then we would know what the early church was like, and we wouldn't have to take the word of Romans who lived centuries later to tell us.

If you think that Christianity is so flawed then why do you fight so hard to be considered the one true Christian? Why bother if you think that the vast majority of Christians are such idiots? Why do you feel the need to be a part of a group that you have so much contempt for?

 

[Hillsage]

This may be a stretch of the quote. Comparing God to hitler. People "choose" hell.

You mean...like the Jews chose to be born Jews, and therefore deserved the gulags? My comment concerning Hitler was simply meant to be looked at in respect to the awfulness of Hitler's temporal torture as compared to the awfulness of torturing someone eternally for no purposeful end or outcome. Even Hitler has a goal for doing what he did. But it is especially heinous IMO, if such an eternal sentence is given to those who never even had an opportunity to hear the gospel and be saved. And there are an innumerable amount of people, from the beginning of creation until now, who fall into that category.

People who are in hell are there because they chose to go there. They wanted to go to hell. People turn away from God by choices they make.

The only ones who could "turn away" had to be turned toward in the first place. There in lies the problem...according to scripture.

ROM 3:11 no one understands, no one seeks for God.

In this way they choose to enter the fire of hell where they burn away all connection to God.

Can you back that with scripture? Don't you not teach that we all came FROM God?

ROM 11:36 For from him and through him and TO HIM are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen.

They committ choice that is against God, God’s Commandments, God’s Will, singes God’s image in us…They become one with hell even while they have their body. At death they go on as they were when they had a body.

"Choice that is against God's will" you say? And why would they do such a thing?

2TI 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

According to the above, it is the devil's will that freely rules over these people. So what hope do they have to "recover themselves" from this 'devil' and have 'free will' to choose? Well according to the following scriptures, spoken just before, it is GOD'S WILL that must intervene.

2TI 2:24 And the Lord's servant must not be quarrelsome but kindly to every one, an apt teacher, forbearing,
25 correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant that they will repent and come to know the truth,

So, while you say 'our will' is so important this scripture seems to say GOD'S WILL is?

 

[Soulgazer]

I'd disagree here. Heretics did flourish, but the aposttles stayed united in belief and practice while simultaneous passing the belief and practice along to their successors. The implicit belief & practice became more explicit overtime. I'd argue it was never "rebuilt". Kindly -James

You may disagree, as is your right. You would however, be arguing from confessional history, which has no basis in critical history.