Sins after Baptism

[steve_bakr]

If all your sins were taken upon Jesus at the cross....... (actually the Bible says INTO, He BECAME our sin, ............ and you wouldn't even be born for another 2,000 years... which part of the sins in your life did Jesus take care of back in 33 AD?

I suppose He anticipated you being "saved" at age... whatever?... and He covered you up to that point in time, and not a second longer? From then on, you have to chew up, and swallow, the host once a week to keep it all going?

What do you do with that sin you comitted at 11:37 on Tuesday night? (The good priest is fast asleep in bed at that time.)

We receive spiritual nourishment and strength through the Eucharist. The entire movement of the Mass inspires in us faith and hope.

IMHO, God forgives every sin the moment we ask. In my experience, Confession is an opportunity for healing and reconciliation. I think Protestants ought to confess their sins as well, as it says in the Bible. The 12-step programs, which originated from biblical principles, involves confessing one's shortcomings to a sponsor.

 

[steve_bakr]

Do you think P doesn't repent, ask forgiveness?

How are your mortal sins "taken care of"? Differently from "minor" sins?

What's the distinction in the scale of sins? Where's that in scripture?

Well, when I was a Protestant, I believed in repenting and asking for forgiveness. I sometimes felt the need to confess my sins as well.

Did the explanation I gave to you from Aquinas of how some sins are more serious than others make sense?

If you knowingly break one of the Ten Commandments, that is a serious sin which requires repentance, confession, and possibly restitution.

 

[Tangible]

It is inescapable that some sins are worse than others when it comes to temporal consequences. As far as God is concerned, anything that does not proceed from faith is sin, and if you have broken one commandment you have broken the whole law.

If all our sins are forgiven when we are first justified by God why are we called to repent (turn our minds back around) and continue to receive forgiveness through confession and absolution and through the sacraments?

This is one of those both/and or now/not yet scriptural truths. We are fully justified by God once and for all, and we are continually washed of the sins we continually commit. Both paradigms are scriptural.

When God first acts to grant us faith in Christ, we are clothed in an alien righteousness - not a righteousness we could ever accomplish ourselves, but the perfect righteousness of Christ, achieved by his sinless life and his concomitant atoning sacrifice. Clothed in Christ we stand perfect and sinless before God.

Yet as we work out our salvation in our daily vocations, for which we have been created anew in Christ and which God has prepared for us to do, we continually fall short and sin against our neighbor and against our God.

Our God is lavish in his gifts. He wants our cups to overflow. So not only are we really and completely forgiven when we are first justified, we are continually given real forgiveness for real sins when God comes to us through his ordained means to do so.

 

[weariedsoul]

We receive spiritual nourishment and strength through the Eucharist. The entire movement of the Mass inspires in us faith and hope.

IMHO, God forgives every sin the moment we ask. In my experience, Confession is an opportunity for healing and reconciliation. I think Protestants ought to confess their sins as well, as it says in the Bible. The 12-step programs, which originated from biblical principles, involves confessing one's shortcomings to a sponsor.

Many of us do confess our sins, we just don't think we need to do that to obtain forgiveness, we do it to get prayer from those who we confess to, and to humble ourselves. Its not easy to confess to others in public, it takes faith. But God is a rewarder of those that seek him. He said humility is the key to entering the kingdom. I was raised in a church of Christ, people went before the congregation and confessed their sins.

 

[Tangible]

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:5-10 ESV)

In the highlighted verse, it certainly seems as though forgiveness is linked to confession.

 

[weariedsoul]

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:5-10 ESV)

In the highlighted verse, it certainly seems as though forgiveness is linked to confession.

Yes, sorry for the confusion. I wont debate that but i was referring to confessing to a priest. The words "you are forgiven my son" come to mind. BUt i am aware that the RCC has scripture backing to support the apostles forgiving sins. I wont debate that either.

But i was just saying that Protestants do confess their sins, and how and why they do.

 

[Standing Up]

Well, when I was a Protestant, I believed in repenting and asking for forgiveness. I sometimes felt the need to confess my sins as well.

Did the explanation I gave to you from Aquinas of how some sins are more serious than others make sense?

If you knowingly break one of the Ten Commandments, that is a serious sin which requires repentance, confession, and possibly restitution.

That was your example--stealing (an apple) vs murder. But they're both in the 10 commandments.

Re Aquinas, I understand and to our flesh, the distinction soothes, but in God's eyes, you steal an apple, it is as if you have murdered.

There's a sin to death----rejecting the provision of God (God our provider, as shown first with Abraham).

 

[weariedsoul]

That was your example--stealing (an apple) vs murder. But they're both in the 10 commandments.

Re Aquinas, I understand and to our flesh, the distinction soothes, but in God's eyes, you steal an apple, it is as if you have murdered.

There's a sin to death----rejecting the provision of God (God our provider, as shown first with Abraham).

intersting. How can stealing be the same as murder if God judges the heart? What if a man stole to feed his family while another man murders out of revenge or hate? I don't claim to know how God judges though.


But if we are guilty of breaking even one law we are guilty of breaking all. But we as Christians will not be judged by the law, however our works will be judged.

 

[Standing Up]

intersting. How can stealing be the same as murder if God judges the heart? What if a man stole to feed his family while another man murders out of revenge or hate? I don't claim to know how God judges though.


But if we are guilty of breaking even one law we are guilty of breaking all. But we as Christians will not be judged by the law, however our works will be judged.

Same thing with defending yourself. No doubt there's all sorts of circumstances. But do not steal. do not murder. are in the 10 commandments.

I agree, we break one law, guilty of breaking them all.

We've been judged. Found guilty. But we who believe are saved by grace through faith. We have an advocate. Our works are judged, but not us.

 

[Standing Up]

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
(1 John 1:5-10 ESV)

In the highlighted verse, it certainly seems as though forgiveness is linked to confession.

Have you memorized all 613 Mosaic Laws? Or are you talking about when our conscience convicts us?

 

[ChrisHolland619]

God through Jesus Christ is the provider and maintainer of our salvation, not us, or our works. That's what the Bible says.

If good deeds aren't enough to gain salvation, why would they be enough to maintain it? The simple and truthful answer is they cannot maintain it, only God's grace does.

The sin in our lives after salvation hinders our usefulness for the Lord, it makes it more difficult to understand the Lord's will, therefore causing us to go astray. But that has nothing to do with our salvation. Our salvation is secured, again, by God's grace.

 

[steve_bakr]

That was your example--stealing (an apple) vs murder. But they're both in the 10 commandments.

Re Aquinas, I understand and to our flesh, the distinction soothes, but in God's eyes, you steal an apple, it is as if you have murdered.

There's a sin to death----rejecting the provision of God (God our provider, as shown first with Abraham).

The purpose of the teaching--if you commit one sin you are guilty of them all--is to establish our universal need for redemption.

But you are mistaking the universal teaching for the specific application of sin. In the system you are describing, the needy man who took an apple would be put to death with the murderer.

It is a misapplication of the teaching. God is not a God of confusion. Your position makes a profound spiritual teaching into a charicature of justice.

 

[weariedsoul]

This is important. What is our faith built on?

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

 

[Giver]

The Catholic view is that serious--ie., mortal--sins destroy Charity within the person, thereby ruining friendship with God. Repentance and forgiveness are required to get it back.

Many Protestants feel that at Baptism--or acceptance of Christ as personal Savior--ALL sins are forgiven: past, present, and future. In this view, serious sin does not cause the loss of friendship between the Christian and God.

Which is the correct view, and what are the Bible verses that support your answer?

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ cleanses one of all past sins.

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

(2 Peter 1:9-11) “But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.’

One will next receive the Holy Spirit, which may be given by the laying on hands or just be given to him or her.


The Holy Spirit will teach one to know God, and give one the grace to live the whole Word of God. When a person lives the whole Word of God, he or she will become temples of God.

(John 14:21-23) “Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.' Judas –not Judas Iscariot – said to him, ‘Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

There is no sin in the temple of God/the kingdom of God. If one deliberately commits a sin after God has made a home in him or her, there is no repentance for them.

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”





(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

 

[steve_bakr]

Baptism in the name of Jesus Christ cleanses one of all past sins.

(Acts 2:38-39) “You must repent, Peter answered and every one of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise that was made is for you and your children, and for all those who are far away, for all those whom the Lord our God is calling to himself.”

(2 Peter 1:9-11) “But if anyone does not have them, he is nearsighted and blind, and has forgotten that he has been cleansed from his past sins. Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.’

One will next receive the Holy Spirit, which may be given by the laying on hands or just be given to him or her.


The Holy Spirit will teach one to know God, and give one the grace to live the whole Word of God. When a person lives the whole Word of God, he or she will become temples of God.

(John 14:21-23) “Whoever holds to my commandments and keeps them is the one who loves me; and whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I shall love him and reveal myself to him.' Judas –not Judas Iscariot – said to him, ‘Lord, what has happened that you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world? Jesus replied: Anyone who loves me will keep my word and my Father will love him, and we shall come to him and make a home in him.”

There is no sin in the temple of God/the kingdom of God. If one deliberately commits a sin after God has made a home in him or her, there is no repentance for them.

(1 John 3:9) “No one, who has been begotten by God sins; because God’s seed remains inside him, he cannot sin when he has been begotten by God.”





(Hebrews 10:26-31) “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them. There is left only the dreadful prospect of judgment and of the fiery wrath that is to devour your enemies. Anyone who disregards the Law of Moses is ruthlessly put to death on the word of two witnesses or three; and you may be sure that anyone who tramples on the Son of God, and who treats the blood of the covenant which sanctified him as if it were not holy, and who insults the Spirit of grace, will be condemned to a far severer punishment. We are all aware who it was that said: Vengeance is mine; I will vindicate his people. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

The perfection we seek is never to sin again. But, as Paul says, "That which I would, I do not. That which I would not, I do." We all sin.

My Church was asking for volunteers to do lectoring. The priest said, "The requirement is that you must be a sinner." I volunteered.

 

[steve_bakr]

It is inescapable that some sins are worse than others when it comes to temporal consequences. As far as God is concerned, anything that does not proceed from faith is sin, and if you have broken one commandment you have broken the whole law.

If all our sins are forgiven when we are first justified by God why are we called to repent (turn our minds back around) and continue to receive forgiveness through confession and absolution and through the sacraments?

This is one of those both/and or now/not yet scriptural truths. We are fully justified by God once and for all, and we are continually washed of the sins we continually commit. Both paradigms are scriptural.

When God first acts to grant us faith in Christ, we are clothed in an alien righteousness - not a righteousness we could ever accomplish ourselves, but the perfect righteousness of Christ, achieved by his sinless life and his concomitant atoning sacrifice. Clothed in Christ we stand perfect and sinless before God.

Yet as we work out our salvation in our daily vocations, for which we have been created anew in Christ and which God has prepared for us to do, we continually fall short and sin against our neighbor and against our God.

Our God is lavish in his gifts. He wants our cups to overflow. So not only are we really and completely forgiven when we are first justified, we are continually given real forgiveness for real sins when God comes to us through his ordained means to do so.

I like this answer.

 

[Giver]

The perfection we seek is never to sin again. But, as Paul says, "That which I would, I do not. That which I would not, I do." We all sin.

My Church was asking for volunteers to do lectoring. The priest said, "The requirement is that you must be a sinner." I volunteered.

It is so sad that people will read Romans seven with no understanding. Paul was explaining in Romans seven just how impossible it is to not sin, before being led by God.

In Romans eight Paul explains how it is now possible to defeat Satan/sin.

(Romans 8:1-4) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”





John tells us that if one sins he or she has never seen
God nor knows God.

(1 John 3-10) “Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”


You asked for scripture to confirm what we post. Why don’t you read the scripture we post, and learn something?

 

[steve_bakr]

It is so sad that people will read Romans seven with no understanding. Paul was explaining in Romans seven just how impossible it is to not sin, before being led by God.

In Romans eight Paul explains how it is now possible to defeat Satan/sin.

(Romans 8:1-4) “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.”





John tells us that if one sins he or she has never seen
God nor knows God.

(1 John 3-10) “Everyone who has this hope based on him makes himself pure, as he is pure. Everyone who commits sin commits lawlessness, for sin is lawlessness. You know that he was revealed to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. No one who remains in him sins; no one who sins has seen him or known him. Children, let no one deceive you. The person who acts in righteousness is righteous, just as he is righteous. Whoever sins belongs to the devil, because the devil has sinned from the beginning. Indeed, the Son of God was revealed to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is begotten by God commits sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot sin because he is begotten by God. In this way, the children of God and the children of the devil are made plain; no one who fails to act in righteousness belongs to God, nor anyone who does not love his brother.”


You asked for scripture to confirm what we post. Why don’t you read the scripture we post, and learn something?

Paul was using the present tense. I appreciate that Christian perfection is to be without sin. Dear God, would that I never sin again!

But it also says, "He who says he is without sin lies." And elsewhere, "If you sin, confess and you will be forgiven." Thank you for the verses you posted. I appreciate your participation in this thread.

BTW, Those verses must mean that it is possible to live without sin. Perhaps some of our Catholic saints are proof of your position.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Those are good verses and require some thought. I don't think of OSAS as an adversarial view, by the way. I started this thread because I honestly wanted to read what others have to say.

To me, the verses seem to suggest that no one--aka, Satan--could snatch anyone belonging to Jesus away from him. But, since I believe we have free will, the verses do not necessarily say that we of ourselves could not conceivably sin so obstinately that we may lose friendship with God.

I say "conceivably" because I believe committing what we Catholics call mortal sin is in reality very difficult to do, because at some point it involves a deliberate rejection of God.

Even then, we believe that mortal sins can be forgiven. The only unforgiveable sin is ultimate and obstinate refusal to repent. Because, how can we be forgiven if we do not repent?

Thank you for your reply, although my question was not directly addressed to you.

I think you are entering into precarious territory here, not unlike the theoretical possibility that Jesus, being God, was capable of sinning because God can do all things.

If the Father and the Son clearly hold the believer in their hands and none can snatch them from their hands, then I think that would also include the one being held. Otherwise, someone (the individual being held) could snatch him from God's hands.

The apparent problem with OSAS is the contention that everyone who says they are saved are actually saved. Jesus Himself made it crystal clear that not all who call Him Lord, Lord or who even do mighty miracles, will be saved. Simply thinking one is saved does not necessarily mean that God has saved him. John 1:13 expressly states that only those who are born of God (not of the will of man, or the will of the flesh) will be saved.

 

[New_Wineskin]

Sin after Baptism.

I have already dealt with that . My answer will not make sense to you because your views on sin and baptim are vastly different than mine .

However ... Water baptism is nothing and so it's position regarding sin ( before , after , during ) is nothing . Once coming back to a relationship with the Lord - rebirth - the Lord will indicate what is sin and what is not sin in the relationship . How the person continues in that relationship is between the two of them . The only "serious" sin would be *if* the person decides to end the relationship after rebirth ( if that is possible , of course ) .

That is my view .