Sins after Baptism

steve_bakr · Oct 14, 2012

The Catholic view is that serious--ie., mortal--sins destroy Charity within the person, thereby ruining friendship with God. Repentance and forgiveness are required to get it back.

Many Protestants feel that at Baptism--or acceptance of Christ as personal Savior--ALL sins are forgiven: past, present, and future. In this view, serious sin does not cause the loss of friendship between the Christian and God.

Which is the correct view, and what are the Bible verses that support your answer?

singpeace · Oct 14, 2012

It is unfortunate that the teaching of eternal security is sometimes the source of problems within Christian circles. Some Christians would say that the belief in eternal security promotes a license to sin. Other Christians believe that if you don't believe in eternal security you have to keep your salvation by works. Both sides often misrepresent the other and instead of being gracious on this debatable issue (as we are commanded to be in Romans 14:1-12) people accuse each other of being unbiblical.

It is my position that once a person is saved he cannot lose his salvation. I place my conviction upon this position because of my study of Scripture. However, someone else can study as much as I and arrive at another position. I recognize that there are godly people on both sides of the argument.

My position is that eternal security is NOT a license to sin. The Christian is regenerated. He is changed from within, being made a new creature (2 Cor. 5:17). Those who were indwelt by the Holy Spirit will war with their sin and stumble from time to time but do not seek to abide in sin. Those who declare that they are eternally secure and then go out and sin on purpose in any manner they so choose are probably not saved to begin with since this is contradictory to what Scripture teaches.

1 John 2:4
"The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

These three sets of scriptures convince me that if I am truly in Christ, I cannot lose my salvation: John 6:37-40; John 10:27-28; 1 John 2:19.

John 6:37:40

All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. 38. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day,"

In verse 37, Jesus says, All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." It is clear that the Father gives to the Son those who believe and that Jesus says he will not cast them out.

In verse 38 Jesus says, For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me." Jesus tells us he is here to do the will of the Father. What is the will of the Father?

John 6:39-40, And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40. For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day,"

I easily draw the conclusion that the will of the Father is that all who were given to the Son (v. 39) will not be lost and will be raised on the last day.

Both 39 and 40 must be interpreted in the same manner; namely, that the will of the Father is actually accomplished in that all who belong to the Son will not perish and all who believe on the Son will have eternal life. Again, if all who belong to the Son might perish, then likewise all who believe on the Son might not be saved; that is, they might not possess eternal life if they believe in Christ! If that is the case, then we aren't justified by faith (Rom. 5:1).

Furthermore, versus 39 and 40 tells us that Jesus will raise them up on the last day. The one group of people who are raised on the last day are those who have been given by the Father to the Son (v. 37), who have believed on the Son (v. 40), who have eternal life (v. 40), and cannot be lost.

John 10:27-28

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand," (John 10:27-28).

Jesus tells us that he gives eternal life to the sheep, the Christians. He clearly and definitely states that they shall never perish. There is no qualifier here. There is no statement such as, "they shall never perish if they remain faithful." There is only the clear declaration that they shall never perish. This inability to perish is a result of the Lord Jesus giving them eternal life.

Furthermore, Jesus says that no one shall snatch them out of his hand which further emphasizes the idea that those who have eternal life will never perish. But, can we snatch ourselves out of Jesus' hand? No we can't because the term "no one" includes the person who is saved. Therefore, you cannot snatch yourself out of Christ's hand.

But there are opponents to this position that would state elsewhere in Scripture such declarations exist that teach we can lose our salvation. If that is the case, then they must be harmonized with the above sections of Scripture. But, I do not see how it is possible especially in light of John 6:37-40 above which teaches you can't lose your salvation.

1 John 2:19

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, in order that it might be shown that they all are not of us."

The context is as follows. In 1:1-4, John speaks about the manifestation of Christ in the world. In 1:5-10 he speaks about God being light and the forgiveness of our sins. In 2:1-6 John says he writes so that we will not sin, that Christ is the propitiation for our sins, and that we are to keep his commandments so as to demonstrate that we are walking in him. 2:7-11 is where John writes about a new commandment about loving your brother and walking in the light rather than darkness.

In 2:12-14 tells us that our sins are forgiven, that we have overcome the evil one. In 2:15-17 John tells us not to love the world and that the world is passing away with its lusts. In 2:18-24 he writes about the Antichrist and those who deny the Son. In 2:25 he speaks of the promise of eternal life, of loving one another, etc.

So, 2:18 is the immediate context of John telling us that many have antichrists have arisen and then in v. 19 he says that they were not from us. Now, some people say that this verse does not prove eternal security because the people who left were antichrists and that they naturally would not have stayed. But, John is not telling us that if the antichrist's had been of them they would have stayed with him. That would make no sense. The reason the antichrists left was to show that they were not of us; that is, of God. But John declares that if these people had been "of us, they would have remained." Antichrists aren't going to remain, only the true believers will.

To me this declares clearly that those who really are of God will remain, and those who are not will leave. It does not say that Christians become antichrists or that Christians lose their salvation. It differentiates between those who are true and false and states that the false will leave and the true will stay.

98cwitr · Oct 14, 2012

How does that Catholic teaching reconcile with:

Hebrews 10:26-30
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Christ or Judgment

26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”

and

1 John 3:6-10
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or [a]knows Him. 7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; 8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one who is [c]born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is [d]born of God.

weariedsoul · Oct 14, 2012

And this too.

Gal_6:7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

ViaCrucis · Oct 14, 2012

I argue for the latter. Baptism isn't simply some "clean slate", it is the transformative work of God redeeming and uniting us to Jesus Christ. In repentance, there is not a new work of regeneration, but rather the same cleansing and regeneration we receive and have possession of in Baptism is present then and there in repentance. Baptism covers all of us, our past, present, and future, clothing us with Christ and declaring us the righteousness of God.

"...but where sin abounded, grace super-abounded, so that, as sin reigned in death, grace also might reigh through righteousness leading to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? We were buried with Him by baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have been united with Him in a death like His, we shall certainly be united with Him in a resurrection like His. We know that our old self was crucified with Him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. For one who has died has been set free from sin. Now if we have died with Christ, we believe we will also live with Him. We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over Him. For the death He died to sin, once and for all, but the life He lives He lives to God. So you must also consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus." - Romans 5:20b - 6:11

-CryptoLutheran

OpenDoor · Oct 14, 2012

TBH after looking at the subject. It has become my opinion that the difference is whether or not a person needs (key word) to confess their sins (after becoming a Christian) or if their sins are already forgiven.

I am of the opinion (and I believe scripture backs me up on this) that if a Christian dies before confessing all their sins they are still forgiven.

Meaning it is not my ability to confess that will save me, but Christ ability to forgive.

From what I understand of the Roman Catholic position, this is not the case.

This is when the Roman Catholic position usually gets asked the question, "what would happen to a Christian who commits a mortal sin and instantly gets hits by a truck?" Is this a case of bad timing?

The problem I have with this view is that it makes God seem like He is up in Heaven with His fingers crossed hoping that He doesn't "loose another one".

Additionally, when we look at the Roman Catholic idea that mortal sins destroy the unity and love between God and a Christian I sincerely doubt this. If the unity and love between God and a Christian are truly destroyed then I would argue that the Christian (former Christian?) would never come back to God to begin with. Now you might argue that the Holy Spirit works within the person to bring them back to God. To which I would say is evidence that the unity and love was never destroyed, maybe hurt but not destroyed.

As a final point, I would like to add that I have come to understand that under current Roman Catholic theology a mortal sin is more than a sin which is bad (even very bad). So in theory (if I understand this correctly) a Roman Catholic could commit many sins during their life, even "very grave" sins and they still might not have committed a mortal sin.

Now with all this said, as for the question of should a Christian confess their sins? The answer I would have to say is, Yes. A Christian should confess their sins. I even recognize it as good and righteous, but failure to do so will not result in death to those who are already in Christ.

Standing Up · Oct 14, 2012

The example in Corinthians was to cast out the brother because of his sin. The question wasn't was he saved or not (vertical relationship), but the impact on fellowship (horizontal relationship).

Sin is sin. Christ either died for all of it or one can try to "cover" their own "serious" sin. Good luck with that.

Ave Maria · Oct 15, 2012

The correct view is the Catholic view. If all sins: past, present, and future were forgiven at baptism or at receiving Christ as Savior then it would be easy to get to Heaven but that is not the case. The Bible says it is difficult to get to Heaven in quite a few cases. Here is one:

"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few.
(Matthew 7:13-14 RSV-CE)

christseeker45 · Oct 15, 2012

I wouldn't say it's only the Catholic view

weariedsoul · Oct 15, 2012

I like that scripture.

I like the whole chapter.

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Mat 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mat 7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
Mat 7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
Mat 7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
Mat 7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.
Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:
Mat 7:29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

weariedsoul · Oct 15, 2012

That is a powerful scripture.

Mat 7:28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine:

GratiaCorpusChristi · Oct 15, 2012

I think your presentation of Protestants conflates the Lutheran/Methodist view and the Calvinist view. In the former, a person can be truly in a state of grace and then lose it through apostasy (as sometimes made evident through serious sin), whereas in the latter anyone who apostasizes was never truly in a state of grace to begin with.

Lutherans and many other Protestants still believe that baptism and justification cover all sins while in a state of grace- past, present, and future- in the sense that the sacrament of confession and absolution is a return to baptism and a reminder of the grace we already possess, but that doesn't mean that the sin of faithlessness (whether alone or expressed through other serious sins) can't remove someone from the fold of the faithful.

New_Wineskin · Oct 15, 2012

There are a lot of apples and oranges in that ...
The view of "sin" is different in both - as well as the idea of a differentiation between sins being serious or not .
The view of water baptism is different
the views of repentance and forgiveness are different
the view of what is "friendship with God" is different

So , the two views of how all of those other views interact with each other are far different than what is presented .

steve_bakr · Oct 15, 2012

Can you expound your post in a bit more detail? Thanks!

steve_bakr · Oct 15, 2012

Could you explain? Thanks!

steve_bakr · Oct 15, 2012

Thanks for your thoughts. I have had some Catholics--including the Abbot of a Benedictine Monastery--express to me that a person does not automatically lose their salvation by committing a serious sin. But he did not go into detail. Presumably to destroy Charity is very difficult and must be done deliberately.

Nevertheless, God forgives ALL sins, but that Confession is the ideal by which this process is completed.

I don't know the answer to the question of the mortal sinner who gets hit by a truck. Perhaps we must rely on God's foreknowledge as to whether that person would have repented.

My understanding of Confession, however, is similar to the "baptism of desire." That is, if a person fully intends to Confess but gets hit by a truck, that intention is good enough to obtain forgiveness.

I would also reiterate my understanding of what I think you suggested about sin. One can commit sins without committing a mortal sin. A mortal sin is uniquely identified as involving a complete turning away from God, which requires full knowledge of the consequences, in which case God requires repentance and Confession.

According to historian Paul Johnson, an early Church Father and even an early Council suggested that confession to God is enough, but it has long since been the tradition in the Catholic Church that Confession is made through a priest.

98cwitr · Oct 15, 2012

Steve...please address post #3

steve_bakr · Oct 15, 2012

I think that these verses must refer to those who continue to sin repeatedly, in a sense of rebellion, and without repentance. For we know elsewhere that it says, "He who claims to be without sin is a liar," and "Whoever of you sins, confess your sins to each other and God will forgive you."

The Catholic teaching is that ALL sins can be forgiven after repentance and Confession. The only sin without forgiveness is refusal to repent "unto death."

Please let me know if this answers your question.

98cwitr · Oct 15, 2012

How do you reconcile that with verse 1 John 3:9, as it doesn't categorize sin at all.

steve_bakr · Oct 15, 2012

This verse may express the perfect ideal. The one born of God that John refers to may be the Christian whose spiritual progress has led him to perfection, which I think is very rare. Otherwise, we would have no need of the repentance (of sinning Christians) that the Bible talks about elsewhere. I still like the interpretation that it refers to the obstinate sinner, though. Even such a one may repent.

Also, rather than get caught up in one verse, I think we need to look at the message of the New Testament as a whole.

If we want to see an example of a repentant follower of Christ, we need look no further than Peter, who denied Christ three times. Yet Christ restored him.

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