Proof that God exists?

[Gadarene]

Such indignation, such avaricious appeal to good and bad form!

If someone offers me something, and I refuse it, would you say that I was interested in that which I refused?

When person P1 has not demonstrated to person P2 that article X has property Y (according to P), then no, one could not draw the conclusion that they are uninterested in Y.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Jesus is the truth. If you truely desire the truth, Jesus is the one that guides us into it. He resurrected from the dead! You have to admit that is awesome.

Jesus also resurrected Lazarus from the dead

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Jesus, Lazarus vs the Pharisees

Luke 2:34 Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary His mother, "Behold, this-One is destined for the falling and resurrection of many in Israel, and for a sign which will be spoken against

John 11:39 Jesus said, "Take away the stone." Martha, the sister of him who was dead, said to Him, "Lord, by this time there is a stench, for he has been [dead] four days."
41 Then they took away the stone [from the place] where the dead man was lying. And Jesus lifted up [His] eyes and said, "Father, I thank You that You have heard Me.
42 "And I know that You always hear Me, but because of the people who are standing by I said [this,] that they may believe that You sent Me."
43 Now when He had said these things, He cried with a loud voice, "Lazarus, come forth!"
44 And he who had died came out bound hand and foot with graveclothes, and his face was wrapped with a cloth. Jesus said to them, "Loose him, and let him go."

 

[Gadarene]

Jesus is the truth. If you truely desire the truth, Jesus is the one that guides us into it. He resurrected from the dead! You have to admit that is awesome.

I would if any of that could be proven.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I would if any of that could be proven.

Ever hear of the term "blind faith"?

Luke 18:42 Then Jesus said to him "receive thy sight, for thy faith has made thee well."

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

I would if any of that could be proven.

Ever hear of the term "blind faith"?

Luke 18:42 Then Jesus said to him "receive thy sight, for thy faith has made thee well."

2 Corinthians 5:7 For we walk by faith, not by sight.
Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary
Jesus vs the blind Pharisees

Revelation 3:18 "I counsel thee to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich;
and white garments, that you may be clothed, [that] the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed;
and anoint thine eyes with eye salve, that thou may see.

 

[Gadarene]

Ever hear of the term "blind faith"?

I have, and it's not for me.

Gideon got his fleece, Thomas got to touch.

Nothing wrong with expecting the same if that's how one is inclined. There is certainly precedent for it.

 

[dlamberth]

Ever hear of the term "blind faith"?

I don't hold much to "blind faith" either. More often than not the way faith is practiced today, especially blind faith, is that it seems to be directed much more towards our beliefs that we have about God and not towards God Himself. It's the inner spiritual eyes that see God. When we see God in that way, we do have something in sight which we can direct our faith towards. And that's not being blind at all.

.

 

[trientje]

Correct, but simply casting aspersions on what someone has said for no good reason or claiming that you know better than they do what their intentions and ideas are is not a particularly good means of discussing these things in good faith. It does imply that you're not being taken seriously, for one thing.

Are you saying that I'm casting aspersions or the gentleman we have been discussing is casting aspersions? If you are talking about the gentleman, if he is casting aspersions on our personal feelings then he is not being fair. But I know how you feel. To state something and be dismissed or feeling like I'm not taken seriously or criticized for stating something that is of my opinion. Or to have my intentions questioned. Feelings and intentions are all subjective and can not be proved neverthless they are very real to a person and when criticized is very hurtful.

 

[Gadarene]

Are you saying that I'm casting aspersions or the gentleman we have been discussing is casting aspersions? If you are talking about the gentleman, if he is casting aspersions on our personal feelings then he is not being fair. But I know how you feel. To state something and be dismissed or feeling like I'm not taken seriously or criticized for stating something that is of my opinion. Or to have my intentions questioned. Feelings and intentions are all subjective and can not be proved neverthless they are very real to a person and when criticized is very hurtful.

The latter. And thanks for being understanding. Whatever I may think of Christians' ideas and their justification for them, I try and take them at face value wherever possible.

 

[Elioenai26]

When person P1 has not demonstrated to person P2 that article X has property Y (according to P), then no, one could not draw the conclusion that they are uninterested in Y.

Your response is no to my question.

Therefore, you maintain that p2 could be interested in (x) and at the same time, refuse (x) if presented by p1.

It follows then, that the determining factor in the decision to refuse (x) lies in p2's impetus for rejecting (x) from p1.

What could possibly be p2's impetus or motive for being interested in (x), and at the same time refusing (x)?

A good case could be made that the refusal of (x) by p2 is because (x) is contradictory to p2's idea of what (x) should be.

 

[Elioenai26]

I have, and it's not for me.

Gideon got his fleece, Thomas got to touch.

Nothing wrong with expecting the same if that's how one is inclined. There is certainly precedent for it.

And you received your feelings of power and love.

How is it that you remained not steadfast in that power and love?

 

[Gadarene]

And you received your feelings of power and love.

How is it that you remained not steadfast in that power and love?

I told you, I reevaluated them.

I'm looking for something surer, something not subject to subjective feelings.

Nothing wrong with that, as evidenced by the Bible.

 

[dlamberth]

I told you, I reevaluated them.

I'm looking for something surer, something not subject to subjective feelings.

Nothing wrong with that, as evidenced by the Bible.

I'm not understanding why Love (which is always subjective) is not something to stay steadfast on. We are a creature, more than any other creature, made to respond to Love. As such, it seems to me like Love, even though it IS subjective, is the perfect way for Human Beings to be and to approach all aspects of Life.

.

 

[Gadarene]

I'm not understanding why Love (which is always subjective) is not something to stay steadfast on. We are a creature, more than any other creature, made to respond to Love. As such, it seems to me like Love, even though it IS subjective, is the perfect way for Human Beings to be and to approach all aspects of Life.

Now I like to generally know I'm loving something that exists first.

 

[dlamberth]

Now I like to generally know I'm loving something that exists first.

I say, than don't put much effort into "knowing" something exists or not. At the same time, I know that you know that Life exist, and because of that "knowing" find a way to see all of life as a blessing, even the bad stuff that comes around...and from a heart centered place be very, very thankful. You don't need any beliefs in God for that. Yet, it still puts you in the same place spiritually as any "believer" in God.

.

 

[Gadarene]

I say, than don't put much effort into "knowing" something exists or not. At the same time, I know that you know that Life exist, and because of that "knowing" find a way to see all of life as a blessing, even the bad stuff that comes around...and from a heart centered place be very, very thankful. You don't need any beliefs in God for that. Yet, it still puts you in the same place spiritually as any "believer" in God.

.

Which is fine, but I don't need some spiritual notions on top of that.

And if Christianity was simply about that kind of experience instead of threatening people and tacking a bunch of theological claptrap onto a perfectly pleasant experience, I'd have far less issues with it.

 

[dlamberth]

And if Christianity was simply about that kind of experience instead of threatening people and tacking a bunch of theological claptrap onto a perfectly pleasant experience, I'd have far less issues with it.

I TOTALLY agree with you. The issues you bring up hit some of the main reasons why I left that faith and went elsewhere. The Heart of Jesus Christ is very simple...Love, Compassion and Service. That simple message gets lost in all of the other tons of stuff that to my eyes has very little to do with what it's founder was saying.

.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I'm not understanding why Love (which is always subjective) is not something to stay steadfast on. We are a creature, more than any other creature, made to respond to Love.

As such, it seems to me like Love, even though it IS subjective, is the perfect way for Human Beings to be and to approach all aspects of Life.

.

And they can also respond with hate and vengeance

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
But he who endures to the end will be saved.

John 15:24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin;
but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

Orca - Official Trailer ( 1978 ) - YouTube

 

[Gadarene]

I TOTALLY agree with you. The issues you bring up hit some of the main reasons why I left that faith and went elsewhere. The Heart of Jesus Christ is very simple...Love, Compassion and Service. That simple message gets lost in all of the other tons of stuff that to my eyes has very little to do with what it's founder was saying.

.

There's an argument that Christopher Hitchens often made, about the historicity of Christ. Technically it was a counterargument - people would say that if you rejected the historical Jesus, you should reject the historical Socrates.

His point was to agree, but point out that Socrates isn't remembered for what he did so much as what he said and that beyond that it doesn't really matter if he was real of not. I think there's a similarity here - if it was simply enough to seek love and goodness, then great - that's what most people want, Christian or not, religious or not. But Christianity's problem is how specific it is - it isn't enough to simply live a good life, or try and mimic Jesus - you have to follow their rules exactly, or die.

 

[dlamberth]

And they can also respond with hate and vengeance

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake.
But he who endures to the end will be saved.

John 15:24 "If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would have no sin;
but now they have seen and also hated both Me and My Father.

All Hate and Vengeance are is miss-directed Love. There would be a lot less Hate and Vengeance in this world if the rest of us had a lot more Love and Compassion and Service to those in need. That "I" feel is the main message that Jesus Christ was trying to get across to us.

.

.

 

[dlamberth]

But Christianity's problem is how specific it is - it isn't enough to simply live a good life, or try and mimic Jesus - you have to follow their rules exactly, or die.

...and the simple message of Jesus Christ gets lost in the process. I think your on the right track in your thinking process. You may know Christ better than a lot of Christians do. I honestly mean that.

What IS the Heart of Jesus Christ? I don't think many Christians actually ask that question even in their claim that Christians are Christ like. Though...I will say that many of my spiritual hero's are Christians. But they tend to be the mystics and saints...the people who go beyond all of the rules and beliefs.

.