Has this gone too far?

[Dorothea]

I am speaking of the arrest of the punk band in Russia. I really think 5 months in jail is a bit steep. I am in the midst of reading one of the punk women's written perspective and explanation here:

MYSTAGOGY: A Statement of Nadia Tolokonnikova ([bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot)

On 21 February 2012 [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] Riot band performed its punk prayer “Hail Mary, Expel Putin” at the Cathedral of Christ the Savior. In the early March 2012 three members of the group were imprisoned because of the music and political activism. The themes of our songs and performances are dictated by the present moment. We simply react to what is happening in our country, and our punk performances express the opinion of a sufficiently large number of people. In our song “Hail Mary, Expel Putin” we reflected the reaction of many Russian citizens to the patriarch’s calls for votes for Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin during the presidential election of 4 March 2012.

We, like many of our fellow citizens, wrestle against treachery, deceit, bribery, hypocrisy, greed, and lawlessness, peculiar to the current authorities and rulers. This is why we were upset by this political initiative of the patriarch and could not fail to express that. The performance at Cathedral of Christ the Savior was committed not on the grounds of religious enmity and hatred. Equally, we harbor no hatred towards Orthodox Christians. Orthodox Christianity worships the same as we do: mercy, forgiveness, justification, love, and freedom. We are not enemies of Christianity. We care about the opinion of Orthodox Christians. We want all of them to be on our side - on the side of anti-authoritarian civil society activists. That is why we came to the Cathedral.

We came with what we have and can: with our musical performance. During this performance we intended to express our concern: the rector of the Cathedral of Christ the Savior and the head of the Russian Orthodox Church - the patriarch - supports a politician who forcefully suppresses the civil society, which is dear to us.

I would like to emphasize the fact that, while at the Cathedral, we did not utter any insulting words towards the Church, the Christians, and God. The words we spoke and our entire punk performance aimed to express our disapproval of a specific political event: the patriarch’s support of Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin, who took an authoritarian and antifeminist course. Our performance contained no aggression towards the audience, but only a desperate desire to change the political situation in Russia for the better. Our emotions and expressiveness came from that desire. If our passion appeared offensive to any spectators, we are sorry for that. We had no intentions to offend anyone. We wish that those, who cannot understand us, would forgive us. Most of all, we want people to hold no grudges against us.

 

[gracefullamb]

So I have a question before I comment steep compared to what? Are you basing that on Russia's law and other cases or our law and cases or just your gut & heart?

 

[Protoevangel]

I agree it seems pretty excessive.

And yet, here in "the land of the free", we have less than 5 percent of the world's population, but we have almost a quarter of the world's prison population. In raw numbers of prisoners, we dwarf every other country. China comes in second, with about half the number of prisoners. Our per capita prison population exceeds that of any other country. Russia does come in second. We also keep people incarcerated longer than any other country.

I feel for these girls, and because it happened in an Orthodox Church, I'd like to see the Church Hierarchy publicly call for leniency, as Vladimir Putin did... but Americans have no room to point fingers.

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

I just read their statement and honestly, I don't think they did or say anything bad.
In fact they sound like a decent banch of guys.
5 years in jail seems too much for plain political protest.

 

[gracefullamb]

Here in the US what they had done would be considered disorderly conduct under the law, disorderly conduct doesn't always mean the person was drunk. Here in the US depending on the state they would have been facing a punishment of $1000-$3000 fine, 6 months-1 year community service, 6 months- 2 year in jail, 6 months-1 year probation. Those punishments are not necessarily an either this or that in the US, so a judge could sentence with a fine, jail time and probation. Here in the US there are actually cases where the person did receive the maximum sentence and the person was a first time offender.

That is why I asked for context of what everyone is basing this sentence being excess on. If we are going by what our hearts tell us is a just punishment, then I'll agree it is excess. If on the other hand it is some sort of ethnocentrism that our laws are more just, and I am not saying that is the case with anyone on TAW, I have just noticed it with others in real life, then I disagree since that is what they would face in the US.

 

[The Unorthodox Orthodox]

Excuse me? 1000-3000$ fee?
What about the atheist buss campaign?
They weren't punished in any way. And what they did was pretty rediculous and insulting!
Yet these guys didn't do anything at all and they have to pay fees or go to jail for 5 months?
Just for protesting?

 

[Dorothea]

graceful, I was purely speaking from my own thoughts and heart. Not comparing the US's laws to Russia's. I realize they are different there. The gal even explains the codes and laws there, and she says they hadn't broken any. I suppose it's who you want to believe. This is the first time I've taken the time to read about exactly what took place and then reading what one of the girls had to say. It sounds to me as if they are not bad, and that they respect the Orthodox Church, and in fact, it sounds like they are Orthodox, with the praying to the Theotokos for help with regards to Putin. They were upset over the Church backing Putin. I can actually understand that and think there is validity to their feelings against Putin and their opinions on not agreeing with the Church backing Putin. I kinda think the Church shouldn't be backing politicians either, but I know it is different in Russia on that than here.

I do have some concerns about the Church and the Russian government. Some things I read recently seem to be taking a swing in a more extreme direction. It seems to go from one extreme to another there. I'm sure Rus could explain what's going on there, and that would be helpful.

 

[Dorothea]

I agree it seems pretty excessive.

And yet, here in "the land of the free", we have less than 5 percent of the world's population, but we have almost a quarter of the world's prison population. In raw numbers of prisoners, we dwarf every other country. China comes in second, with about half the number of prisoners. Our per capita prison population exceeds that of any other country. Russia does come in second. We also keep people incarcerated longer than any other country.

I feel for these girls, and because it happened in an Orthodox Church, I'd like to see the Church Hierarchy publicly call for leniency, as Vladimir Putin did... but Americans have no room to point fingers.

Putin himself called for leniency? Will that is good to know. I'm not sure why they're still in jail then. I am ignorant to how the laws work in Russia, obviously.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

These chicks are incarcerated for speaking their mind. How many people in the U.S. are long-term incarcerated for their opinions? My state is a good example of prisons out of control. But if you look at most of these dirtbags filling our state prisons, they're gang-bangers, drug-dealers, killers, armed robbers, child molestors, fraud, grand theft auto, etc. They deserve to be in there. Americans aren't guilty of incarcerating the innocent as much as they're guilty of having a crime-infested culture. We can criticize Russia for stuff like this, but we certainly can't claim to have the corner on virtuous citizenry! Our country is the most violent culture on Earth it seems. But we don't jail punk bands for the most part!

China and Russia jail people for their opinions, criticisms of dictators and politicians, and they are human rights abusers in many cases. The U.S. is just filled with good, old-fashioned, hardened prisoners...

I agree it seems pretty excessive.

And yet, here in "the land of the free", we have less than 5 percent of the world's population, but we have almost a quarter of the world's prison population. In raw numbers of prisoners, we dwarf every other country. China comes in second, with about half the number of prisoners. Our per capita prison population exceeds that of any other country. Russia does come in second. We also keep people incarcerated longer than any other country.

I feel for these girls, and because it happened in an Orthodox Church, I'd like to see the Church Hierarchy publicly call for leniency, as Vladimir Putin did... but Americans have no room to point fingers.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

It's pretty simple---criticize Putin or the state-run propaganda machine and you wind up behind bars or exiled....look at his former opposition!

Putin himself called for leniency? Will that is good to know. I'm not sure why they're still in jail then. I am ignorant to how the laws work in Russia, obviously.

 

[Protoevangel]

Putin himself called for leniency? Will that is good to know. I'm not sure why they're still in jail then. I am ignorant to how the laws work in Russia, obviously.

The Russian court system does not get direction directly from Putin... Although I'm sure he could use his weight to do more if he really wanted to. Maybe I worded that badly, his 'call for leniency' was really just him sharing his opinion in response to a question. He was criticized even for expressing this opinion, some said it called the independence of the court system into question. Politics are toxic wherever you are.

 

[gracefullamb]

Excuse me? 1000-3000$ fee?
What about the atheist buss campaign?
They weren't punished in any way. And what they did was pretty rediculous and insulting!
Yet these guys didn't do anything at all and they have to pay fees or go to jail for 5 months?
Just for protesting?

That was a paid advertisement to a private corporation. Paid advertisements to a private corporation, no matter how vulgar are not considered disorderly conduct in the USA and thus illegal. If the crime had taken place in the USA and the police were called and they were charged it would be considered disorderly conduct. In the USA one does not have the right to protest in a privately owned building or on privately owned property, only on public land and only in front of public buildings. Protesting in a public building will get you arrested in the USA as well.

 

[Dorothea]

It's pretty simple---criticize Putin or the state-run propaganda machine and you wind up behind bars or exiled....look at his former opposition!

Yes, I see what you're saying, but I would think if Putin himself (who was criticized) is asking for leniency, wouldn't the government do as he requested if he's got such power? It seems odd to me. And what does the Church say about this? I can't remember if there have been stories on the Patriarch's response to the punk gals.

 

[Dorothea]

The Russian court system does not get direction directly from Putin... Although I'm sure he could use his weight to do more if he really wanted to. Maybe I worded that badly, his 'call for leniency' was really just him sharing his opinion in response to a question. He was criticized even for expressing this opinion, some said it called the independence of the court system into question. Politics are toxic wherever you are.

Oh, ok. Wow. That really is odd, but like I said, I know next to nothing about the government there, or in any other country, really.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

right---I'm not saying Putin was directly responsible or even responsible at all here, just that they have a crooked system and if you read up on this guy's rise to power and how much of a sphere of control he has, it's frightening. He almost has the power Bush had! LOL

Yes, I see what you're saying, but I would think if Putin himself (who was criticized) is asking for leniency, wouldn't the government do as he requested if he's got such power? It seems odd to me. And what does the Church say about this? I can't remember if there have been stories on the Patriarch's response to the punk gals.

 

[gracefullamb]

graceful, I was purely speaking from my own thoughts and heart. Not comparing the US's laws to Russia's. I realize they are different there. The gal even explains the codes and laws there, and she says they hadn't broken any. I suppose it's who you want to believe. This is the first time I've taken the time to read about exactly what took place and then reading what one of the girls had to say. It sounds to me as if they are not bad, and that they respect the Orthodox Church, and in fact, it sounds like they are Orthodox, with the praying to the Theotokos for help with regards to Putin. They were upset over the Church backing Putin. I can actually understand that and think there is validity to their feelings against Putin and their opinions on not agreeing with the Church backing Putin. I kinda think the Church shouldn't be backing politicians either, but I know it is different in Russia on that than here.

I do have some concerns about the Church and the Russian government. Some things I read recently seem to be taking a swing in a more extreme direction. It seems to go from one extreme to another there. I'm sure Rus could explain what's going on there, and that would be helpful.

Then I agree with you it is an excessive punishment. It does not fit the crime at all. I know the girls say they respect the church and did not mean irreverence, but as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They may have intended to be respectful but their was nothing in their actions that was respectful. Now that doesn't mean I think the book should be thrown at them, it shouldn't. A more just punishment would have been some community service. I could have sworn I read Putin had at some point asked for leniency rather recently actually. Has that changed because if it hasn't I don't see how he can be blamed for the sentence.

 

[ArmyMatt]

to answer the OP, yes, that does seem a tad too excessive.

 

[Dorothea]

right---I'm not saying Putin was directly responsible or even responsible at all here, just that they have a crooked system and if you read up on this guy's rise to power and how much of a sphere of control he has, it's frightening. He almost has the power Bush had! LOL

I have such a cynical view of governments, that my response is that all governments are crooked, some more than others, for sure. What you say here doesn't surprise me. Their court system sounds a bit messed up. How many countries' court systems are right? Is Europe's a bit better? I don't know. Like I said, I'm not that knowledgeable on what other country's governments and court systems work like.

 

[Mary of Bethany]

Jesus!

Really???? Was that necessary?

You know, four-letter words don't really bother me too much, but to see our Lord's name taken in vain, in this forum, really stuns me.

Mary

 

[Dorothea]

Then I agree with you it is an excessive punishment. It does not fit the crime at all. I know the girls say they respect the church and did not mean irreverence, but as the saying goes the road to hell is paved with good intentions. They may have intended to be respectful but their was nothing in their actions that was respectful. Now that doesn't mean I think the book should be thrown at them, it shouldn't. A more just punishment would have been some community service. I could have sworn I read Putin had at some point asked for leniency rather recently actually. Has that changed because if it hasn't I don't see how he can be blamed for the sentence.

I'd like to know exactly what the lyrics to their song were. The name of their band is offensive to me, but I felt compassion for the gal when I read her letter (haven't finished reading the whole thing yet, though).

Btw, I'm wondering if Putin is just being like all other politicians in seeing the backlash and the constant news stories spread about this all over the world (for the past couple months, 3/4's of the google Orthodox news alerts have been about this and then when I saw MYSTAGOGY's link on FB, I figured I'd figure out more of what was going on), that he stated his opinion for leniency so that he looked good. I'm cynical of politicians, and not just the ones in this country.