Atheism (3)

[Dave Ellis]

well give your definition of "sin" and well go from there. And I already know you don't believe in the Bibles' definition.

Nice dodge, almost worked.... but you're still attempting to change the subject.

The question was why not make every sin as morally reprehensible as Child Rape or Murder? God obviously made us in a way that sin was unavoidable.

 

[dlamberth]

That's a complete load of bunk!

If the God and his law was perfect, it would have been perfect in spirit and results.

If the results were not perfect, that means God made a mistake and is no longer perfect.

And why wouldn't he have created beings who were perfectly capable of following the law?

Or...that whole theology needs to be thrown out and replaced by the Heart of Love as the One True Way.

.

 

[Dave Ellis]

My main intention, and I am humbly obligated to confess that it may not have been portrayed concisely enough, was that to accurately understand references in the Bible to slavery, we must understand that the Mosaic Law (which is the most frequently quoted portion of scripture regarding this topic) was not given until aprroximately 1500 B.C.

This is important because by this time, large civilizations and societies such as Hammurabi with his law code in Babylon and the various Egyptian Dynasties had been in existence for centuries and slavery was an institution that was common to all.

God, in giving the Law to Moses, was not primarily concerned with social reform i.e. the abolishment of slavery. The main reasons were because slavery then was not the slave trading, man stealing, and sex trafficking slavery we so commonly assoicate with the word in modern times.

Secondly, it was God's intention that His people who had been the recipients of His laws and precepts would come to love their neighbors and honor and respect them and treat them they way that they wanted to be treated. This influential, altruistic and benevolent love would over time permeate the Hebrew peoples and become the impetus in the abolishment of slavery altogether from the Israelite Nation. A lot like the influence of Christian men and women in the abolishment of slavery in and through the British parliament championed by men like William Wilberforce.

First off, how do you know what God's exact motives were in stating his laws?

Secondly, why would God purposefully put forward a system of laws that goes against things that are moral? If he was moral, he couldn't do that with a good conscience. What's the point of setting laws that govern the price you can buy your slaves at? I can't foresee how a moral being could ever do that.

 

[createdtoworship]

Sure it is.... if God is ultimate perfection, it's impossible that he'd make a law that wouldn't be 100% effective.

Otherwise, he did something that is not perfect, and therefore he is not perfect.

In order for him to stay as a perfect being, his will and plan must have been for everything to turn out exactly as it has.

same questions deserve the same answers

here is a book that may make some sense:

HEBREWS 7:19—Was the Law of Moses perfect or imperfect?

PROBLEM: The psalmist declared that the “law of the Lord is perfect” (Ps. 19:7). It reflects the very character of God (cf. Lev. 11:45). Yet the writer of Hebrews insists that “the law made nothing perfect” (7:19), and thus God brought in a “better covenant” (v. 22). This, he contends, would not have been necessary “if that first covenant had been faultless” (Heb. 8:7). So, who is right? Is the law perfect or imperfect?

SOLUTION: The law was perfect in its nature, but imperfect in its results. It was a perfect expression of God’s righteousness, but an imperfect means of making man righteous. Of course, that is not the fault of the law itself or the purpose for which God gave it. For the law was never given to redeem sinners (Titus 3:5–6; Rom. 4:5), but to reveal sin. As a standard and means of revealing sin, the law was an impeccable norm and teacher. But it was only “our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith” (Gal. 3:24). Like a mirror, the law was intended to reveal our imperfections as we look into it; but it, no more than the mirror, was intended to correct our imperfections. So the law is perfect in itself, as a rule and revealer of sin, but it is imperfect as a means of empowering us to overcome sin.


from


Geisler, Norman L. ; Howe, Thomas A.: When Critics Ask : A Popular Handbook on Bible Difficulties. Wheaton, Ill. : Victor Books, 1992, S. 516

 

[createdtoworship]

Nice dodge, almost worked.... but you're still attempting to change the subject.

The question was why not make every sin as morally reprehensible as Child Rape or Murder? God obviously made us in a way that sin was unavoidable.

I honestly don't follow your logic. Try giving a definition of sin, they we will go from there. (I already know you don't believe in the Bibles definition). Because it sounds like you want God to make us all like robots to where every action, every sin is the same level of ease or difficulty. But in a complex universe it is just not that simple. Especially not without programming us as robots with no free will.

 

[Gadarene]

I honestly don't follow your logic. Try giving a definition of sin, they we will go from there. (I already know you don't believe in the Bibles definition). Because it sounds like you want God to make us all like robots to where every action, every sin is the same level of ease or difficulty. But in a complex universe it is just not that simple. Especially not without programming us as robots with no free will.

Don't need to give a definition of sin, I'm hardly using a different one (for the sake of argument).

And the free will objection is irrelevant - again, it easy for most people to avoid child abuse. Why is god tampering with our free will there?! Of course, no one thinks this. So why not make our reactions to other sins the same?

 

[createdtoworship]

Don't need to give a definition of sin, I'm hardly using a different one (for the sake of argument).

And the free will objection is irrelevant - again, it easy for most people to avoid child abuse. Why is god tampering with our free will there?! Of course, no one thinks this. So why not make our reactions to other sins the same?

I am sorry I dont' follow you.

 

[Dave Ellis]

I am sorry I dont' follow you.

The point he is getting at is the same one I was getting at.

Some sins are morally reprehensible to us, for example, child abuse, murder, rape, etc.

However, some sins are not only moral to us, some are purely natural feelings (greed, lust, etc.)

If God truly wanted us to refrain from sin, he could have made is in a way where we view greed or lust the same way we view child rape.

For example: If he made everyone in a way where we'd emotionally view every sin as badly as child rape, it would be incredibly easy for everyone to avoid sin. Instead, he didn't do that. He rigged it in a way where sin is basically unavoidable for us.... then he punishes us with death and eternal torture for it.

What kind of moral being would set things up that way? It makes no sense.

 

[Elioenai26]

First off, how do you know what God's exact motives were in stating his laws?

Secondly, why would God purposefully put forward a system of laws that goes against things that are moral? If he was moral, he couldn't do that with a good conscience. What's the point of setting laws that govern the price you can buy your slaves at? I can't foresee how a moral being could ever do that.

Im glad you asked.

God stated several times what His specific aims were in giving the Law to His people. I shall enumerate them if you desire for me to. Needless to say, the Law had several important purposes and they all were benevolent in nature.

Secondly, God never purposefully put forward a system of laws that went against things that are moral.

In understanding what God has said about us when compared to Him, we know that God, being who He is, is not going to think like we think, act like we act, or have the same view of the world as we do. God sees the whole forest where as we, being low and finite, see only the lower portions of the trunks of the trees. We are unable to even see one complete tree in its entirety and there is a whole forest that surrounds us!

To us, yes, several times throughout the Bible God is recorded as having done things which to some make no sense. Now, they make sense to me because I have a better understanding of who God is and what His purposes in creating the world were.

Most misunderstandings in these existential questions with regards to God's actions can be better understood by reading the Bible as a whole without (as far as is humanly possible) any preconceived notions or ideas. Now I am not saying that when you read the Bible you have preconceived ideas about it, but what I am saying is that it is all too easy to extraploate what we "think" is true or what we "think" is moral or immoral onto the passages in the scripture that speak on the topics we are discussing.

Just as it is the responsibility of the apologist to approach atheism with humility, sincerity, integrity, and honesty; so too, it is the responsibility of the atheist to approach the Holy Scriptures with the same attitude.

Volumes and volumes of literature have been written on these specific subjects which we are discussing. So much so that if they were all collected, they could fill a whole library! So anything written here will be only at best, a small fraction of what is available on the topic from both sides.

 

[Dave Ellis]

Im glad you asked.

God stated several times what His specific aims were in giving the Law to His people. I shall enumerate them if you desire for me to. Needless to say, the Law had several important purposes and they all were benevolent in nature.

Secondly, God never purposefully put forward a system of laws that went against things that are moral.

Actually, yes he did.... he wrote the law, and there are things included in that law which are not moral.

In understanding what God has said about us when compared to Him, we know that God, being who He is, is not going to think like we think, act like we act, or have the same view of the world as we do. God sees the whole forest where as we, being low and finite, see only the lower portions of the trunks of the trees. We are unable to even see one complete tree in its entirety and there is a whole forest that surrounds us!

And this is one of the things about the Christian Worldview that I find disgusting.... people are taught that they aren't worthy and are mere peons to some cosmic magic man that we have no reason to assume even exists.

I tend to take more of an enlightened worldview. We are the highest form of life that we know of, and we should strive to make ourselves even better.

To us, yes, several times throughout the Bible God is recorded as having done things which to some make no sense. Now, they make sense to me because I have a better understanding of who God is and what His purposes in creating the world were.

Really, well... explain how you got a better understanding of God than anyone else, especially if his ways are beyond our comprehension?

Most misunderstandings in these existential questions with regards to God's actions can be better understood by reading the Bible as a whole without (as far as is humanly possible) any preconceived notions or ideas. Now I am not saying that when you read the Bible you have preconceived ideas about it, but what I am saying is that it is all too easy to extraploate what we "think" is true or what we "think" is moral or immoral onto the passages in the scripture that speak on the topics we are discussing.

I appreciate the fact that you aren't accusing me of reading things with a preconceived idea.

However, what we think is true depends on what reason we have to believe it. I'm open to accepting anything (with enough evidence) that isn't already directly contradicted by known fact.

As for morals, there are also some parts of the bible which are clearly immoral under any sane standard. Bringing up those points is quite valid.

Just as it is the responsibility of the apologist to approach atheism with humility, sincerity, integrity, and honesty; so too, it is the responsibility of the atheist to approach the Holy Scriptures with the same attitude.

Sure, I agree with that. When I was still a Christian and really started looking into this stuff in depth I was probably even biased towards the Christian side.

From my viewpoint, I've had about 10 years now of reading, research and debating. I believe honesty, integrity and sincerity should be observed at all times with no exceptions.

As for humility, I show humility when possible... however on the other hand when talking about some of the more immoral sections of the bible or religion, I believe it's best to not pull any punches and call a spade a spade.

I find it offensive when people try to justify clearly immoral teachings, and pointing that out to them sometimes makes them realize what they're actually advocating. So yes, it's best to show humility whenever possible, but sometimes it's best to make exceptions!

Volumes and volumes of literature have been written on these specific subjects which we are discussing. So much so that if they were all collected, they could fill a whole library! So anything written here will be only at best, a small fraction of what is available on the topic from both sides.

That's true... there's a lot of good, and bad arguments from both sides. The important thing is to view everything skeptically and accept things that are demonstrably true, withhold judgement on things without evidence, and reject things that are contradictory or demonstrably false.

If everyone lived by those standards, the world would be a better place!

 

[Elioenai26]

Actually, yes he did.... he wrote the law, and there are things included in that law which are not moral.

Thank you for your thoughts. I shall endeavor with all humility to respond in a manner worthy of your statements.

With regards to the above statement, please if you so desire, supply me with a list of all that you feel supports your position and I will respond to it.

And this is one of the things about the Christian Worldview that I find disgusting.... people are taught that they aren't worthy and are mere peons to some cosmic magic man that we have no reason to assume even exists.

With regards to the above statement, I believe, as will every other sincere believer, that the exact opposite is true!

Now if any Christian teaches that we are worthless and mere peons, I most assuredly declare that they are not teaching the truth!

Every single human being is of infinte worth and value in God's sight.

The psalmist says:

When I look at thy heavens, the work of thy fingers,
the moon and the stars which thou hast established;
what is man that thou art mindful of him,
and the son of man that thou dost care for him? (Ps. 8.3-4)

And in the beginning...

Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” 27 God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28 God blessed them; and God said to them, “ Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Gen 1:26-28)

Since we have been made in the image of God, we are self-conscious moral beings, and therefore set apart from all the rest of the physical order. As persons we have not only extrinsic value but intrinsic value.

The renowned historian of philosophy Frederick Copleston stated to the effect that one single human being is worth more than the entire material universe put together.

So valuble are we, that God sent His Son into the world so that we might live through Him.

And again the psalmist says:

Yet thou hast made him little less than the angels,
and dost crown him with glory and honor.
Thou hast given him dominion over the works of thy hands;
thou hast put all things under his feet. (Ps. 8.5-6)

From Genesis to Revelation, scripture is clear, humans are the most precious and valuble of all of God's creation.

I tend to take more of an enlightened worldview. We are the highest form of life that we know of, and we should strive to make ourselves even better.

Speaking on the value of human life, I believe that the Biblical view of humanity and its intrinsic value does far more justice to our preciousness and uniqueness than any other view.

Really, well... explain how you got a better understanding of God than anyone else, especially if his ways are beyond our comprehension?

God has told us that if we seek Him with our whole heart then we will find Him. We have been given the awesome privilege of knowing the one who loves and cares for us.

Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him. (John 14:23)

Again it is written:

"He who has My commandments and keeps them is the one who loves Me; and he who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will disclose Myself to him." (John 14:21)

And again:

'Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. (Revelation 3:20)

And again:

"No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. (John 15:15)

Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets. (Amos 3:7)

He gave me instruction and talked with me and said, "O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. (Daniel 9:22)

"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. (John 16:7)

However, what we think is true depends on what reason we have to believe it. I'm open to accepting anything (with enough evidence) that isn't already directly contradicted by known fact.

As for morals, there are also some parts of the bible which are clearly immoral under any sane standard. Bringing up those points is quite valid.

The Bible, as a collection of sixty-six individual pieces of literature is going to be an eclectic ensemble of a variety of different genres. Many things good and bad, moral and immoral are going to be recorded in these genres. To say that God endorses everything that is recorded is to overlook the significane of these literary forms. For example; various forms of prose written as narratives such as heroic, epic, tragic, literary, comic, etc. etc. will have accounts of men and women excercising great virtue in their lives and also within these passages, detestable and wicked acts will also be recorded. Just because it is recorded in the Bible that people had more than one wife does not mean that God endorsed polygamy, nor does it mean that God endorsed slavery because slavery is mentioned as being an aspect of the Hebrew culture.

We must differentiate between what is endorsed and approved as opposed to what is permitted or allowed. These are two very different ideas. Because some things are recorded in the Bible does not necessarily and automatically mean that God endorses them or approves of them.

I find it offensive when people try to justify clearly immoral teachings, and pointing that out to them sometimes makes them realize what they're actually advocating. So yes, it's best to show humility whenever possible, but sometimes it's best to make exceptions!

I respect your position. As Christians, we are taught to always show respect and humility and love towards those who disagree and those who may be contrary towards us. For us, there are no exeptions, for even Christ when being crucified, prayed for them that were nailing Him to the cross, that they might be forgiven. He is our example and we as His followers, should not expect any different.


I pray you may be encouraged by these words.

 

[createdtoworship]

The point he is getting at is the same one I was getting at.

Some sins are morally reprehensible to us, for example, child abuse, murder, rape, etc.

However, some sins are not only moral to us, some are purely natural feelings (greed, lust, etc.)

If God truly wanted us to refrain from sin, he could have made is in a way where we view greed or lust the same way we view child rape.

For example: If he made everyone in a way where we'd emotionally view every sin as badly as child rape, it would be incredibly easy for everyone to avoid sin. Instead, he didn't do that. He rigged it in a way where sin is basically unavoidable for us.... then he punishes us with death and eternal torture for it.

What kind of moral being would set things up that way? It makes no sense.

Christians DO view all sin the same. Stealing a paper clip is not worse than robbing a bank. (they should view them the same) as God does. It's the heart of the matter not how much funds is taken.

for this reason it's hard for me to follow the logic.

 

[dlamberth]

Now if any Christian teaches that we are worthless and mere peons, I most assuredly declare that they are not teaching the truth!

I can't tell you have many times I've been told that we are like dirty rags in the eyes of God.

A couple of years ago my wife and I went to a baby dedication to Jesus at their church. One of the things I do enjoy in Church Services are the songs. But I just couldn't join in when in one songs they were singing that we are like worms in the eye of God. That went too far.

I don't know your church experience, but I've ran into the "worthless" teaching often. It's a teaching that I find repugnant.

The argument presented on our being worthless in God's eye is based on the believed need for Jesus to make us right so that God can see us. [FONT=&quot][/FONT]Essentially, the cry that we are "sinners" in need of Salvation is saying the same thing, but with different words.

.

 

[Gadarene]

Christians DO view all sin the same. Stealing a paper clip is not worse than robbing a bank. (they should view them the same) as God does. It's the heart of the matter not how much funds is taken.

for this reason it's hard for me to follow the logic.

We're not claiming that some sins are worse than others.

We're pointing out that some sins are much easier for the majority of people to avoid committing because they're disgusted by it, for example.

We're then asking why couldn't god have made people so that more -if not all - sins triggered that sense of revulsion, making it much less likely that people will sin in the first place.

We do not consider the common revulsion to certain acts to be a tampering with free will, so merely feeling revulsion at sin would not affect our freedom to choose, it would just make it easier to make the better choice. Less people sin, less people run the risk of ending up in hell. Win win. So why has god not done this?

 

[createdtoworship]

We're not claiming that some sins are worse than others.

We're pointing out that some sins are much easier for the majority of people to avoid committing because they're disgusted by it, for example.

We're then asking why couldn't god have made people so that more -if not all - sins triggered that sense of revulsion, making it much less likely that people will sin in the first place.

We do not consider the common revulsion to certain acts to be a tampering with free will, so merely feeling revulsion at sin would not affect our freedom to choose, it would just make it easier to make the better choice. Less people sin, less people run the risk of ending up in hell. Win win. So why has god not done this?

steeling a paper clip does create revulsion in christians.

 

[Skavau]

steeling a paper clip does create revulsion in christians.

Then they and God have no sense of perspective at all and quibble over frivoities that imperfect beings (designed so) are bound to commit at some point.

 

[createdtoworship]

Then they and God have no sense of perspective at all and quibble over frivoities that imperfect beings (designed so) are bound to commit at some point.

God cares about the heart, not how much is stolen for example.

 

[Skavau]

God cares about the heart, not how much is stolen for example.

You think the heart of someone who steals a paperclip flippantly has the same heart as someone who would rob a bank?

 

[createdtoworship]

You think the heart of someone who steals a paperclip flippantly has the same heart as someone who would rob a bank?

do you think God cares about how much value is stolen?

 

[Eudaimonist]

God cares about the heart, not how much is stolen for example.

Honestly, it sounds like legalism to me.


eudaimonia,

Mark