Obama and marriage between Gays and Lesbians.

[ThinkFreeDom]

...This is simply because compared to the majority it's ABNORMAL, it's against NATURE.

For many years conservative Christians made the same argument against interracial marriage.

How is homosexuality 'against nature'? It happens naturally in many species, including Bonobos (pygmy chimps), penguins, orcas and giraffes. You make the mistake of assuming that sex is just for breeding, you are Catholic right? In fact sex is used by many animals for bonding and recreation.

There is nothing unnatural about homosexual sex.

 

[Pythons]

Here Sara, let's break this down for you.

In recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are child molesters. This argument was often made in debates about the Boy Scouts of America's policy to exclude gay scouts and scoutmasters. More recently, in the wake of Rep. Mark Foley's resignation from the US House of Representatives in 2006, antigay activists and their supporters seized on the scandal to revive this canard.

That's NOT what the site I directed you to maintained at all....
...Which is why I asked you if you even read it.
...It's "ok" Sara - I prefer we do it this way.

The evidence I submitted shows that homosexual men molest BOYS at documented rates...
...Which were GROSSLY disproportionate to the rates hetrosexual men molest girls.
...Boys being defined here as under the age for consensual sex according to the laws where the crimes took place.
...Girls being defined here as under the age for consensual sex according to the laws where they live.

This is the same basic "science" that determined smoking was unhealthy....
...Data was gathered and studied which demonstrated that smokers got sick.
...With certain diseases at GROSSLY disproportionate rates to that of non smokers for the same diseases.

Given that you said you read the material I linked and understand gay aplogetics...
...Do you agree that we are both in agreement on what I said above?
...I would like to know how you feel about this prior to moving on to the actual "evidence".

 

[Pythons]

For many years conservative Christians made the same argument against interracial marriage.

How is homosexuality 'against nature'? It happens naturally in many species, including Bonobos (pygmy chimps), penguins, orcas and giraffes. You make the mistake of assuming that sex is just for breeding, you are Catholic right? In fact sex is used by many animals for bonding and recreation.

There is nothing unnatural about homosexual sex.

Take a class on Evolution Theory and get right back to me on that...
...LOL!

 

[SaraJarvis]

Here Sara, let's break this down for you.



That's NOT what the site I directed you to maintained at all....
...Which is why I asked you if you even read it.
...It's "ok" Sara - I prefer we do it this way.

The evidence I submitted shows that homosexual men molest BOYS at documented rates...
...Which were GROSSLY disproportionate to the rates hetrosexual men molest girls.
...Boys being defined here as under the age for consensual sex according to the laws where the crimes took place.
...Girls being defined here as under the age for consensual sex according to the laws where they live.

This is the same basic "science" that determined smoking was unhealthy....
...Data was gathered and studied which demonstrated that smokers got sick.
...With certain diseases at GROSSLY disproportionate rates to that of non smokers for the same diseases.

Given that you said you read the material I linked and understand gay aplogetics...
...Do you agree that we are both in agreement on what I said above?
...I would like to know how you feel about this prior to moving on to the actual "evidence".

You cherry-pick your arguments. Read it again:
"in recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are child molesters."

Of course antigay activists will assert this. They're homophobes.

The conclusion of the entire article that I posted asserted that gay people are no more likely to be paedophiles than heterosexuals.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Take a class on Evolution Theory and get right back to me on that...
...LOL!

It is there and documented. You obviously have no answer.

 

[SaraJarvis]

Homosexuality and paedophillia are two entirely different things. Just as heterosexuality and paedophillia are two entirely different things:

"Surveys have identified few paedophiles amongst homosexuals: Westwood (1960) found less than 3% claiming to be interested in young people sexually — which is not the same as actual sexual contacts.
About 12% of Westwood’s sample had contact after 18 years of age with boys of 16 or younger.
and 6% said that they felt free to engage in sexual activities with a boy of any age.
​

Another study showed that nearly half of the men convicted of sexually molesting boys were actually married at the time (Gebhard et al., 1965); less than a third preferred children sexually to older people. Using measures of sexual arousal to different sets of pictures, it was discovered that although heterosexual men were sexually aroused by pictures of girls rather than by those of landscapes, homosexual men were no more aroused by pictures of boys than landscapes (Freund, 1963).
​

In short, just knowing the nature of an adult’s sexual involvement with children says little or nothing about their orientation to adult men or women."
​

Paedophillia is a sexual attraction to CHILDREN. Gender is not the question. Homosexuality is an attraction to others of the same gender.

 

[Pythons]

It is there and documented. You obviously have no answer.

Yes, and what is the mechanism for removing a mutation detrimental to the species.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Yes, and what is the mechanism for removing a mutation detrimental to the species.

Natural selection. What is your point?

You are just trying to avoid confronting the fact that you said homosexuality was unnatural, whereas it is documented and proven that homosexuality exists in many animals. It is natural.

Do you have a response to that? If not you should concede that homosexuality is natural.

 

[Pythons]

Natural selection. What is your point?]

"THE" point is natural selection as a mechanism is impossible to carry on advantageous mutations...
...In a same sex orientated individual.

You are just trying to avoid confronting the fact that you said homosexuality was unnatural, whereas it is documented and proven that homosexuality exists in many animals. It is natural.

Yes, just like blindness is "natural" along with a host of other non advantageous mutations...
...All of which can be witnessed in any species.
...You really want to follow that logic chain.

Do you have a response to that? If not you should concede that homosexuality is natural.

When you can convince me that congenital birth defects are of advantage...
...You would have a leg to stand on.
...Otherwise you would serve yourself well to admit a mutation that prevents procreation of the species.
...Is not an advantage to that species.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Antonin Scalia, a conservative US Supreme Court Justice and a devout Catholic had this to say:

"What justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising "The liberty protected by the Constitution"? Surely not the encouragement of procreation, since the sterile and the elderly are allowed to marry."

What justification, other than a coded passage in the Old Testament, do you have for denying people equal rights?

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

Yes, just like blindness is "natural" along with a host of other non advantageous mutations...
...All of which can be witnessed in any species.
...You really want to follow that logic chain.
.

So you concede that homosexuality is natural?

 

[Pythons]

Antonin Scalia, a conservative US Supreme Court Justice and a devout Catholic had this to say:

"What justification could there possibly be for denying the benefits of marriage to homosexual couples exercising "The liberty protected by the Constitution"? Surely not the encouragement of procreation, since the sterile and the elderly are allowed to marry."

What justification, other than a coded passage in the Old Testament, do you have for denying people equal rights?

None, I just want them to call it something other than marriage...
...In any event I thought we were talking about Natural Selection, advantageous mutations.
...And how they are passed along by gradation.

 

[Pythons]

So you concede that homosexuality is natural?

As natural as any other "illness"...
...Would you attend a "Celebrate Spina Bifida" event?

 

[Pythons]

You cherry-pick your arguments. Read it again:
"in recent years, antigay activists have routinely asserted that gay people are child molesters."

Of course antigay activists will assert this. They're homophobes.

The conclusion of the entire article that I posted asserted that gay people are no more likely to be paedophiles than heterosexuals.

For now forget the interpretation of the data Sara...
...Do you agree that the data is valid?
...We can drill into the interpretation of the data later.

 

[SaraJarvis]

For now forget the interpretation of the data Sara...
...Do you agree that the data is valid?
...We can drill into the interpretation of the data later.

Any data asserted by anti-gay activists is invalid. It is the same kind of mindset that says "all Jews are greedy"; incorrect and bigoted. People with this kind of mindset take a few cases of a scandal of some sort, over-exaggerate them to extremes, and immediately attempt to pin the 'dangerous' badge on an entire community that they dislike, fear, resent, or simply cannot understand. It's the same badge that was pinned on Native Americans when Europeans arrived in America. They pinned them as dangerous, savage barbarians, who would harm 'innocent' Christian families. These anti-gay activists have exactly the same mindsets, only these days they can't get away with mass execution. Fear-mongering is a sickening thing, and those who participate in such should really take some time to think about the way the world has been affected by such behaviour in the past. It's a crying shame that after all the atrocities caused by such, some people still find it within themselves to engage in such operations.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Pythons:

You stated:

The 'Church' met in homes, caves or anywhere Christians gathered.

I see you are referring to after the resurrection and acension of Yashua. Homes and then synagogues during Acts. But the Church begin to become corrupted even in Paul's day. (2 Thess 2:7). When Nero burned Rome there were many different fraction of so call Christians. The Nazarenes were the disciples and the apostles who followed Yashua. Acts 24:5 In Antioch the name Chrestan was given to Paul as a curse. Acts 11:26 This is known in history books but the Catholic for centuries tried to hide this fact. It is known that Greeks took over the church it split and the majority kept the name Christian from the word Chrestan. The reason is the eastern occult of worshiping Christo. One writer stated:

Again, what would a bunch of Israelites that practice the Torah of Yahweh and follow the Messiah, be doing with a Greek term used by Pagans as a label for themselves?

Elaine PageIs, one of the foremost academic authorities on early Christianity, writes:

History is indeed written by the victors.History is not simply related, it is created. Ideally, the motivation is to explain historical evidence and come to an accurate understanding of how the present has been created by the past. All too often, however, it is simply to glorify and justify the status quo. Such histories conceal as much as they reveal. Carla Gwaltney

St. Peter's in Rome: The Mithraeum which St. Peter's Basilica was built upon is still accessible. . . Emperor Constantine merged the cult of Mithra with that of Christianity that was developing much power among his constituents. He declared himself a Christian but at the same time maintained his ties to the Mithra cult. He retained the title "Pontifus Maximus" the high priest. On his coins were inscribed: "Sol Invicto comiti" which means, commited to the invincible sun. Carnaval.com

In the Vatican, one can view an original Pagan relief depicting MITHRAS with the words CHRESTOS MITHRAS. These worshipers were known to worship in caves that was adopted by the Christians after the death of all the apostles. This fact and is known and visited in Rome by numerous visitors every day! The Christians changed the truth and they were not obeying all the Commandments of ELOHIM and these were the ones found in caves.​

It was this same 'core' group who, when they could, constructed their ChurcheS...
...The 'Church' ( Christians ) assembled where they could and once the religion was legalized.
...The Church ( Christian people ) built actual CHURCHES.

Yes these churches you are referring to is after Catholicism took over and built these Gothic Cathedrals.

So you want to talk about pagan priests now.

Python there have been pagan priest who copied from YAHWEH. This actually started with Nimrod.

I've got no issues with history Stinson - you do - as does Walter Veith and Doug Batchelor....
...Which is obviously the reason why they simply run the other direction from formal debates.
...Especially the ones dealing with history.

Why do you think that everyone who is of the SDA accept what they say? I don't need to because I am a Biblical Historian myself. Secondly, I read and research and have travel the world for myself. If something they say is true than I will agree but not on their word alone. It must be historical facts and not just SDA or Catholic propaganda.

Short example of how SDA preachers twist history.
God combined Church & State - you should read your Bible a little more

Python I am not interested in Kenneth Cox or anyone that has not have the facts based on finding or digs that has been throughly researched. It is not just accept somones opinions it about facts! Look at you claiming I don't know my Bible. Judging me as well as you do others is a sin. I have never said anything like that to you!!!!!!

No, it was founded on freedom from the Church of England....
...Did you forget the Witch trials?

Please explain????

No, they don't want that Stinson - you've been listening to too many liberal talking points....
...The tea party could care less what religion someone is - they want an end to sick govt.
...There are many of us who are tired of that and this concept is color and religion blind.

Ah now pray tell what is color and religion blind? Defind it for me!


I know my Grandparents experienced this 1st hand - they stuck together in small bands.....
...They didn't even really learn English - people didn't like them and let them know it.
...This happens accross the board so I'm not sure where you are trying to go with this.

I'm not sure what this is all about and what is this what I stated?

My point is that Israel was a Church - State NOT a separation of Church & State...
...This is so clearly demonstrated by Scripture under the Jewish glory days of the Old Covenant.
...You simply can't deny it.

Israel was as I said did not accept YAHWEH as their ruler but man. When the apostazied which was most of the time the people follow the king. However, there were those who were faithful. There were kings who changed and followed YAHWEH but even so they never a government that had a Priest/King ruler. Only the Canaanites had this priviledge and that was Melchizdec according to Scriptures. But it was never a church and state rule as you want to claim today. As the Catholic did in history so will the Tea Party attempt to do again. There religious belief aganist everyone else and that is wrong. You cannot make a person believe the way you do. That is not your call and you are not a Supreme Being or Creator. Civil affairs are separate from religion. Even though I disagree with homosexual acts, abortion (except rape victims) base on my belief in the Bible. I cannot oppose this on others. Sin include liars, adulters, backbiters, people who unatural affections (oral sex), prositutes, greed, people drink strong drinks, people who smoke cigaretts, people who tatooe themselves, People who covet, People who worship false beings (Satan and his angels under different names), and I could go on. Then laws of the State should be written against them as well. Guess what you would not have any one over any one would you because all have sin and against YAHWEH'S glory including you and me!

In any event I thought this thread was about how gay marriage is abnormal and against the natural law....
...And how Obama appears to be feverishly supporting buggerite marriage.

All sin is against ELOHIM'S natural law and that includes you! Get the moat out of your eye before you judge others. You start living right and leave the gays alone and allow them to observe you. Maybe by the life you or I live can help them to change as well as others who comitt some of the sins I mention above.

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[stinsonmarri]

I agree it has veered slightly off-topic but I, personally, have based my argument in favour of gay marriage on an unpopular foundation (my Gnosticism, that is, more specifically; my belief in Jesus' rejection of the Old Covenant in entirety), which is what is being disputed.

I am not against setting up another thread but I'll wait for Stryder06's reply before I act.

Well even though I disagree with your belief, we both agree that gay marriage is civil and religion should not play a part on a national level. Hate the sin and not the sinner. Live the right life and lead others to you belief if they choose too. I am not for gay marriage but that is not my call in civil matters that is my faith and how I understand my Bible. Even though Stryder06 are of the same SDA Church, he never comments on anything I say and do not know why? But its okay and I respect how you believe and others should do that for all people. It alright to stand up for what you believe as long as you don't try to force others to believe as you do. That is freedom of religion and the Tea Party folks don't pratice what they preach!!!

Blessings,
stinsonmarri

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

None, I just want them to call it something other than marriage

The Church doesn't own the institution of marriage.

 

[ThinkFreeDom]

None, I just want them to call it something other than marriage...
...In any event I thought we were talking about Natural Selection, advantageous mutations.
...And how they are passed along by gradation.

Well, we can talk about Natural Selection if you want to; especially since you have conceded that you have no basis for justifying your opposition to gay marriage.

 

[JohnMarsten]

God didn't create marriage:

"The concept of marriage predates Christianity and the other two forms of Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam which share a common origin and common values. Marriage is very ancient dating back beyond recorded history and was practiced by all people of many cultures, ethnicities and belief systems on all continents.

The prevalace of the concept of marriage came to the forefront of culture when humankind evolved from hunter gatherer to agriculture and pastoralism which occured during the neolithic/agricultural revolution about 10,000 years ago.

Originally "marriage" was a private, binding contract between clans (families) to form an alliance, thereby increasing the clan's chances for survival in war against rival clans. A "dowry" was given by each clan to "seal the deal". Marriage was contractual, considered a passing of "property" between clans as a symbol of intention to honor the agreement being made. Property took many forms: cattle, land, children, whatever was considered to be of great value at the time. In the United Kingdom, a requirement for a public announcement in a Christian parish (banns of marriage) was introduced by the Roman Catholic Church in 1215. This set the precident for marriage as is recognized by the Christian community.

The origins of marriage is NOT religious, nor does it have anything to do with the God of the Abrahamic religions. It was around way before organized religion which by Christian standards means it is PAGAN. Christians "borrowed" many pagan rites and rituals so Pagans would convert more readily and easily to Christianity. "

I disagree with you, but thats actually not so important where marriage comes from (I believe God has institutionalized marriage).

What is important here is the idea that gay marriage shouldnt take place in church!

What is the church? it is the body of Christ. So we have to abide by a certain code. Christ's code...

So if gays want to marry... well, many societies are opening up their gates towards this idea, giving them marriage... on a secular level... a marriage sacntioned by the state... and if the state is open to this...

Church life is quite different... personally I would leave (as a christian) a denomination that allowed gay marriage...

If gays want to marry in a church... let them establish their own church... with their own 'version' of God and of Christ... or better another god... or they could take one of the more prominent gays and declare them their savior or object of worship...

One way or the other, a church cannot sanction gay marriage and stay true to Christ at the same time... remember one cannot serve two masters...