Obama and marriage between Gays and Lesbians.

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JohnMarsten

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I can honestly say that I don't know a single gay person who has ever stated that they wish for pedophilia to be made legal, which is basically what you're suggesting. The age of consent should be equal for heterosexuals and homosexuals. Why should a man and a woman be able to have sex (including anal sex, which seems to be what you're so worried about) at a certain age, yet two homosexuals can't? Please support your claims with some decent evidence.


Sara! the legalization of sin usually comes in steps... as Pythons presented...

Oscar Wilde server two years in prison for being gay... that was over a hundred years ago if I am not mistaken... in the sixties gay people were harassed by the police in the USA... after that they got more and more legal...when I was young they were still not really accepted but more and more they got what they wanted...

but why try to bring it into the church? I mean gay people can attend church, they should humble themselves and ask God for help, why twist the bible and tell people its OK with Jesus? and if God had gay people killed in the OT, then it cannot be the father of Jesus, since Jesus is so loving... I think you will agree with my logic... I mean if you knew that God really existed, wouldnt you say that He considers gayizm, or buggerism a sin that we should or have to fight against?
 
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JohnMarsten

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The paranoia about the 'gay agenda' is ridiculous. I suggest you watch LZ Granderson's The Myth of the Gay Agenda on TED. I bet you won't, but I can only try.

Your suggestion that gay people are paedophiles is a disgusting piece of bigotry and defamation. The vast majority of paedophiles are male and identify as straight.

I have never really studied into this paedophilia thing but from what I know is that there is usually an older and a younger person involved in same sex buggery... thats what I was told by a gay person...
 
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SaraJarvis

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To them it's not pedophilia Sara - it's simply viewed as helping the youg'uns...
...Prepping them for life in the world.



My evidence here, given that this is a Christian forum, is as direct as it is simple.

Romans 1,26
For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the NATURAL use into that which IS against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Strong's G5449
1) nature
a) the nature of things, the force, laws, order of nature
1) as opposed to what is monstrous, abnormal, perverse

In case that was missed what we have here is St. Paul explicitly saying...
...That same sex buggery is ABNORMAL and as such against Natural law.

I've already demonstrated how same sex orientation is classified as abnormal...
...And a "mutation of detriment" according to the theory of Evolution.
...So you have Scripture, logic and Science all saying the same thing.

We can see this was one of those things that carried over into the New Testament...
...Here it is again in the Old Testament.

Lev 18,22
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is confusion.

Hmmm, let's look up what confusion means in Hebrew.

Strong's H8397
1) confusion (violation of nature or divine order)
a) perversion (in sexual sin)

In this case, as Scripture says ( which the theory of Evolution agrees with )...
...Same sex buggery as an orientation is against God's divine order and Nature.

This is not say that God doesn't love the homosexual Sara - for God loves them as much as anyone else...
...And just as someone who has a genetic urge to steal is called by God NOT to steal.
...A same sex oriented person is called to not participate in acts of buggery with their same sex.
...Or members of the Opposite sex UNLESS they are married.
Your statement was basically saying that gay people are often paedophiles, or endorse paedophillia. I'm not going to discuss scripture with you, because that's neither here nor there and you and I have been through this. I disagree with you on that topic - I'm now discussing another with you.

To put gay people and paedophiles in the same box is an absolutely disgusting and uneducated ideal. When I asked for evidence, I didn't ask for scripture saying that homosexuality is wrong (although I don't buy into that, either; I think it's a twisted reading); I asked for your evidence that homosexuals and paedophiles are in any way related. Can you back up that claim? I doubt it.
 
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SaraJarvis

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Sara! the legalization of sin usually comes in steps... as Pythons presented...

Oscar Wilde server two years in prison for being gay... that was over a hundred years ago if I am not mistaken... in the sixties gay people were harassed by the police in the USA... after that they got more and more legal...when I was young they were still not really accepted but more and more they got what they wanted...

but why try to bring it into the church? I mean gay people can attend church, they should humble themselves and ask God for help, why twist the bible and tell people its OK with Jesus? and if God had gay people killed in the OT, then it cannot be the father of Jesus, since Jesus is so loving... I think you will agree with my logic... I mean if you knew that God really existed, wouldnt you say that He considers gayizm, or buggerism a sin that we should or have to fight against?
In that case, shall we also ban obese people from marrying in church? Gluttony is a sin, isn't it? Or proud people?
 
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SaraJarvis

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I have never really studied into this paedophilia thing but from what I know is that there is usually an older and a younger person involved in same sex buggery... thats what I was told by a gay person...
I don't know who you've been speaking to, there, but that's hardly true. Maybe only in the same way that some women prefer the older man.
 
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JohnMarsten

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I don't know who you've been speaking to, there, but that's hardly true. Maybe only in the same way that some women prefer the older man.

you could be right here... I dont know too many gay people... so its just what I heard... I thought there could be a pattern... must have been a foregon conclusion...
 
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SaraJarvis

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thats a little bit different dont you think?
How? I've heard plenty of people saying that all sin is equal? If the church doesn't want to advocate a sinful lifestyle, and gluttony is a sin, then why don't they ban fat people? Because it's ridiculous, that's why. Same goes for banning homosexual marriage.

Yeah, the age thing is just a personal preference. Same as some women like older men because they're more mature, and such.
 
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JohnMarsten

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How? I've heard plenty of people saying that all sin is equal? If the church doesn't want to advocate a sinful lifestyle, and gluttony is a sin, then why don't they ban fat people? Because it's ridiculous, that's why. Same goes for banning homosexual marriage.

Yeah, the age thing is just a personal preference. Same as some women like older men because they're more mature, and such.

we are all sinners...and yes, all sins are equal even though some are more tragic than the others... obesity, or gluttony is sin, same goes for pride or sexual immorality...

However, as far as marriage is concerned... to be more specific in regard to church... it is an institution that God has sanctioned... between man and woman... male and female... between the masculine and the feminine gender...

same sex marriage was never sanctioned by God... so if gays need their marriage so badly, they can have it on a secular level... why push it? I mean they should know its not what God wants and the church which is the Body of Christ cannot sanction it... I mean if a house is divided then it will not stand...
 
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Pythons

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Your statement was basically saying that gay people are often paedophiles, or endorse paedophillia.

Yes, within that abnormal culture THAT rubric happens to be normal within it...
...This is why ancient cultures that spoke of it, called the mature participants; 'Boy Lovers'.
...It's no different than if men could get away with it they would prefer young females.
...For the type of things that go on after it gets dark.

An old man can indeed breed a young woman and the advantageous mutations each possesses...
...Can be passed on to the offspring of such a union.
...On the flip side the advantageous mutations CAN'T be passed on via same sex buggery.

Thus the actual act CAN'T result in anything past the fulfillment of the perverse desires that initiated the act...
...It's simply Natures way to cull a mutation which is detrimental to homo sapien.
...By having those who possess the mutation be attracted to their same sex.

Sara said:
I'm not going to discuss scripture with you, because that's neither here nor there and you and I have been through this. I disagree with you on that topic - I'm now discussing another with you.

Fine, as a believer in Thestic Evolution we can discuss the detrimental mutation of same sex orientation....
...Within species homo sapien and how natural selection does it's best to weed out THAT mutation.

Sara said:
To put gay people and paedophiles in the same box is an absolutely disgusting and uneducated ideal.

I would agree that it is disgusting - unfortunately, for your cherished premise...
...It's not the result of uneducated bias.


Sara said:
When I asked for evidence, I didn't ask for scripture saying that homosexuality is wrong (although I don't buy into that, either; I think it's a twisted reading); I asked for your evidence that homosexuals and paedophiles are in any way related. Can you back up that claim? I doubt it.

We can be honest here Sara -can we not?

As a man who appreciates the opposite sex I can honestly say that if I'm not in control of myself....
...It's VERY easy to see an attractive 18 or 19 year old girl in a way that Scripture tells me I shouldn't.
...The same hold true for a woman who is in her 40's, 50's or older and notices a handsome young man.

We all have the natural instinct to breed - to perpetuate our species....
...We are naturally, sexually drawn to members of the opposite sex who we have identified.
...As having advantageous mutations - that's why we are drawn.

Just because I'm NATURALLY, sexually drawn to an attractive 18 year old woman ( I'm 45 )....
...Does not mean this attraction is justified by God's law.
...For God's law is clear that I'm not to dwell on such things because I'm married.
...And to do so IS SIN.

We are all protective of our respective spouses and wouldn't want them to cheat on us.....
...Society is built MAINLY on Natural Law, the law God engineered us to operate through.
...When we step away from that things start to go downhill.

This is WHY, even in a culture that's never been educated in Christian or Jewish religion...
...A 50 year old woman has hurt feelings when she discovers her 50 year old husband cheated on her.
...The same hold true for a husband who finds out his wife cheated.

The reason I mention this is to demonstrate that even without Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition...
...A simple savage in the jungle knows he's better off IF he does his cheating in the dark.
...Same with ANY culture.

What I'm telling you is that accross the board the NORMAL reaction society has to same sex orientation...
...Is embarassment - for the most part it's been kept as secret as possible.
...This is simply because compared to the majority it's ABNORMAL, it's against NATURE.

There, I didn't quote any Scripture.
 
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SaraJarvis

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we are all sinners...and yes, all sins are equal even though some are more tragic than the others... obesity, or gluttony is sin, same goes for pride or sexual immorality...

However, as far as marriage is concerned... to be more specific in regard to church... it is an institution that God has sanctioned... between man and woman... male and female... between the masculine and the feminine gender...

same sex marriage was never sanctioned by God... so if gays need their marriage so badly, they can have it on a secular level... why push it? I mean they should know its not what God wants and the church which is the Body of Christ cannot sanction it... I mean if a house is divided then it will not stand...
God didn't create marriage:

"The concept of marriage predates Christianity and the other two forms of Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Islam which share a common origin and common values. Marriage is very ancient dating back beyond recorded history and was practiced by all people of many cultures, ethnicities and belief systems on all continents.

The prevalace of the concept of marriage came to the forefront of culture when humankind evolved from hunter gatherer to agriculture and pastoralism which occured during the neolithic/agricultural revolution about 10,000 years ago.

Originally "marriage" was a private, binding contract between clans (families) to form an alliance, thereby increasing the clan's chances for survival in war against rival clans. A "dowry" was given by each clan to "seal the deal". Marriage was contractual, considered a passing of "property" between clans as a symbol of intention to honor the agreement being made. Property took many forms: cattle, land, children, whatever was considered to be of great value at the time. In the United Kingdom, a requirement for a public announcement in a Christian parish (banns of marriage) was introduced by the Roman Catholic Church in 1215. This set the precident for marriage as is recognized by the Christian community.

The origins of marriage is NOT religious, nor does it have anything to do with the God of the Abrahamic religions. It was around way before organized religion which by Christian standards means it is PAGAN. Christians "borrowed" many pagan rites and rituals so Pagans would convert more readily and easily to Christianity. "
 
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ThinkFreeDom

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I have never really studied into this paedophilia thing but from what I know is that there is usually an older and a younger person involved in same sex buggery... thats what I was told by a gay person...

If you have two different people one is very likely to be older than the other.
 
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SaraJarvis

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Yes, within that abnormal culture THAT rubric happens to be normal within it...
...This is why ancient cultures that spoke of it, called the mature participants; 'Boy Lovers'.
...It's no different than if men could get away with it they would prefer young females.
...For the type of things that go on after it gets dark.

An old man can indeed breed a young woman and the advantageous mutations each possesses...
...Can be passed on to the offspring of such a union.
...On the flip side the advantageous mutations CAN'T be passed on via same sex buggery.

Thus the actual act CAN'T result in anything past the fulfillment of the perverse desires that initiated the act...
...It's simply Natures way to cull a mutation which is detrimental to homo sapien.
...By having those who possess the mutation be attracted to their same sex.



Fine, as a believer in Thestic Evolution we can discuss the detrimental mutation of same sex orientation....
...Within species homo sapien and how natural selection does it's best to weed out THAT mutation.



I would agree that it is disgusting - unfortunately, for your cherished premise...
...It's not the result of uneducated bias.




We can be honest here Sara -can we not?

As a man who appreciates the opposite sex I can honestly say that if I'm not in control of myself....
...It's VERY easy to see an attractive 18 or 19 year old girl in a way that Scripture tells me I shouldn't.
...The same hold true for a woman who is in her 40's, 50's or older and notices a handsome young man.

We all have the natural instinct to breed - to perpetuate our species....
...We are naturally, sexually drawn to members of the opposite sex who we have identified.
...As having advantageous mutations - that's why we are drawn.

Just because I'm NATURALLY, sexually drawn to an attractive 18 year old woman ( I'm 45 )....
...Does not mean this attraction is justified by God's law.
...For God's law is clear that I'm not to dwell on such things because I'm married.
...And to do so IS SIN.

We are all protective of our respective spouses and wouldn't want them to cheat on us.....
...Society is built MAINLY on Natural Law, the law God engineered us to operate through.
...When we step away from that things start to go downhill.

This is WHY, even in a culture that's never been educated in Christian or Jewish religion...
...A 50 year old woman has hurt feelings when she discovers her 50 year old husband cheated on her.
...The same hold true for a husband who finds out his wife cheated.

The reason I mention this is to demonstrate that even without Sacred Scripture or Sacred Tradition...
...A simple savage in the jungle knows he's better off IF he does his cheating in the dark.
...Same with ANY culture.

What I'm telling you is that accross the board the NORMAL reaction society has to same sex orientation...
...Is embarassment - for the most part it's been kept as secret as possible.
...This is simply because compared to the majority it's ABNORMAL, it's against NATURE.

There, I didn't quote any Scripture.
You've said all of this before. I could say a lot about it, but I'm not going to lose my temper or waste my time. You still haven't given any evidence for your before claim that homosexuality endorses paedophillia.
 
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Pythons

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You've said all of this before. I could say a lot about it, but I'm not going to lose my temper or waste my time. You still haven't given any evidence for your before claim that homosexuality endorses paedophillia.

Look at the math then connect the dots.

http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L46.pdf

Having known two gay Priests who are no longer certified Clergy...
...I can assure you that they both self identified as 'gay men'.
...And they couldn't get enough of the young boys.

I will be interested to see your reaction to the figures and conclusions of the evidence contained in the link Sara.
 
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ThinkFreeDom

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Look at the math then connect the dots.



Having known two gay Priests who are no longer certified Clergy...
...I can assure you that they both self identified as 'gay men'.
...And they couldn't get enough of the young boys.

I will be interested to see your reaction to the figures and conclusions of the evidence contained in the link Sara.

The Family Research Council is a notoriously homophobic organisation. If you are going to present studies as evidence they should be independent, peer-reviewed, science based studies or they are meaningless.

George Rekers was one of the founding members of FRC right? Yet another example of a self-loathing homosexual trying to cover up his homosexuality by being vociferously homophobic in public. He should be counselled into accepting his nature.
 
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SaraJarvis

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Look at the math then connect the dots.

http://downloads.frc.org/EF/EF08L46.pdf

Having known two gay Priests who are no longer certified Clergy...
...I can assure you that they both self identified as 'gay men'.
...And they couldn't get enough of the young boys.

I will be interested to see your reaction to the figures and conclusions of the evidence contained in the link Sara.
What a horribly biased article. If you're going to give me 'evidence', then please make sure that the survey in question hasn't been conducted from an entirely biased point of view.

Here is another article. It discusses several surveys, and I don't think that you'll like the conclusion:

"The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children. "

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation
 
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Pythons

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The Family Research Council is a notoriously homophobic organisation. If you are going to present studies as evidence they should be independent, peer-reviewed, science based studies or they are meaningless.

George Rekers was one of the founding members of FRC right? Yet another example of a self-loathing homosexual trying to cover up his homosexuality by being vociferously homophobic in public. He should be counselled into accepting his nature.

That's why I said to "connect the dots" - if you want to argue with the non-religious studies cited...
...Be my guest - I would be happy to discuss them with you.

Understand that the evidence for self identified gay people's sexual orientation for youth...
...Is better documented than the evidence that smoking can shorten your life.
...I look forward to your continued input on this top in this thread ThinkFreedom.
 
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Pythons

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What a horribly biased article. If you're going to give me 'evidence', then please make sure that the survey in question hasn't been conducted from an entirely biased point of view.

Here is another article. It discusses several surveys, and I don't think that you'll like the conclusion:

"The empirical research does not show that gay or bisexual men are any more likely than heterosexual men to molest children. This is not to argue that homosexual and bisexual men never molest children. But there is no scientific basis for asserting that they are more likely than heterosexual men to do so. And, as explained above, many child molesters cannot be characterized as having an adult sexual orientation at all; they are fixated on children. "

Facts About Homosexuality and Child Molestation

You evidently didn't read the article Sara - that point is discussed in length....
...Demonstrate why and where their logic is wanting on this point.
...That's how discussion / debate works.
 
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ThinkFreeDom

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Understand that the evidence for self identified gay people's sexual orientation for youth...
...Is better documented than the evidence that smoking can shorten your life..

There is no credible evidence linking homosexuality and paedophilia. You are simply trying to justify your prejudice with unsubstantiated claims.

Produce some independent, peer-reviewed scientific studies to back up these claims and I will be happy to discuss those with you.
 
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SaraJarvis

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You evidently didn't read the article Sara - that point is discussed in length....
...Demonstrate why and where their logic is wanting on this point.
...That's how discussion / debate works.
I did read the article. Did you read what I posted?

Yours is completely biased and yet another way of inspiring fear amongst people who have little or no contact with homosexuals, and don't understand that they're simply normal people living normal lives.

Why don't you offer me an article that isn't written by a petrified homophobe?

I'm fully aware of how discussion/debate works, but I am also aware that there is a line wherein some material is simply not worth spending any time pondering over.
 
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