Let's Talk About Hell (6)

[BobRyan]

What the Bible does NOT say is "To BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord". There is not even one verse in all of scripture that says that - yet many Christians today will blindly follow pastors that get up claim that such a verse exists!

I posted nearly ten translations of that verse, are you going to dispute the greek behind the verse or what? Because what you say above is obviously false.

I reposted your list showing that not one of them said "To BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord".

But when you read your own list - you imagine that they all say

"To BE absent from the body IS TO BE present with the Lord". even though not on of them has that wording.

That is called "conditioning".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[createdtoworship]

2 Corinthians 5:8

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
.

hey bob read the bold parts, am I imagining it now? By the way "is to be" is the same as "and to be"

 

[he-man]

your funny man, can't let it go.
It's fine, your too sensitive today to talk anymore about this.

Somebody needs to study Greek 101
2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be out of the country and from the body to be native with regard to the Lord.

 

[createdtoworship]

Somebody needs to study Greek 101
2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be out of the country and from the body to be native with regard to the Lord.

thats a good paraphrase,

out of the country and from the body is the important part.

meaning they are away from the body and present (native) to the Lord. Meaning to be dead is to be with Christ.

which was the entire conversation.

 

[createdtoworship]

2 Corinthians 5:8

King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

American King James Version
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But we are confident, and have a good will to be absent rather from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

Darby Bible Translation
we are confident, I say, and pleased rather to be absent from the body and present with the Lord.

Webster's Bible Translation
We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

see no translations use home where "absent from the body" is said.

yet tim suspects that there is two occasions of home in the text, on where it says absent, one where it says present.

but home is not in the greek in any of those locations.

Your translation is closer (heman), I believe.

 

[he-man]

thats a good paraphrase,

out of the country and from the body is the important part.

meaning they are away from the body and present (native) to the Lord. Meaning to be dead is to be with Christ.

which was the entire conversation.

No, meaning to be native with the Lord means to be in the Kingdom with Him after he returns.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

 

[createdtoworship]

No, meaning to be native with the Lord means to be in the Kingdom with Him after he returns.

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

Psa 2:6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.

Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, 29 For our God is a consuming fire.

Heb 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:

10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.

thats your interpretation, nothing in corinthians suggests that the verse in 5:8 is speaking of after the return.

 

[he-man]

thats your interpretation, nothing in corinthians suggests that the verse in 5:8 is speaking of after the return.

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

 

[createdtoworship]

Heb 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

that's fine that's speaking of after the return, but that's not a reference to 2 Corinthians 5:8

you have no verses like I said, in corinthians (the context) making that verse refer to after the return. Thats your opinion. The verse has an immediate fulfillment unless scripture states otherwise.

I am just curious as to why your translation was so different than timothews?

I await eagerly your answer.

 

[Timothew]

Somebody needs to study Greek 101
2Co 5:8 But we are bold, and Ι think well rather to be out of the country and from the body to be native with regard to the Lord.

I like your translation. "Out of the country" for "ἐκδημῆσαι", I put something like "not at home" which you would be, if you were out of the country or not in your home country. "To be native with" for "ἐνδημῆσαι", I put "at home", which you would be if you were in your native or "home" country. When I come back to Wisconsin after I've been away from home and I feel the trees around me again, I sometimes sigh and think "Oh, it's good to be home again." To me the same root word δημῆσαι needs to have the same english word translating, with qualifying words fot the prefixes "ek" and "en". But that is difficult to make sound right in english, and you went a different direction, which I really like. But it just isn't the direction that I went.

I like our discussions of the greek text that we have been having for the past two years. We can translate the same text a little differently and we both realize that there is not just one "correct" translation. There is not a one-for-one greek-to-english correlation in translating, which a lot of people think. The greek new testament means what it says in greek. All english new testaments are translations of the greek new testament. Jonathan Robie said something like this, "The real meaning of a Greek phrase is not its English translation." Biblical Greek: Learning New Testament and Septuagint Greek

 

[he-man]

that's fine that's speaking of after the return, but that's not a reference to 2 Corinthians 5:8

you have no verses like I said, in corinthians (the context) making that verse refer to after the return. Thats your opinion. The verse has an immediate fulfillment unless scripture states otherwise.

I am just curious as to why your translation was so different than timothews?

I await eagerly your answer.

Biblical Greek: Learning New Testament and Septuagint Greek

 

[he-man]

I like your translation. "Out of the country" for "ἐκδημῆσαι", I put something like "not at home" which you would be, if you were out of the country or not in your home country. "To be native with" for "ἐνδημῆσαι", I put "at home", which you would be if you were in your native or "home" country. When I come back to Wisconsin after I've been away from home and I feel the trees around me again, I sometimes sigh and think "Oh, it's good to be home again." To me the same root word δημῆσαι needs to have the same english word translating, with qualifying words fot the prefixes "ek" and "en". But that is difficult to make sound right in english, and you went a different direction, which I really like. But it just isn't the direction that I went.

I like our discussions of the greek text that we have been having for the past two years. We can translate the same text a little differently and we both realize that there is not just one "correct" translation. There is not a one-for-one greek-to-english correlation in translating, which a lot of people think. The greek new testament means what it says in greek. All english new testaments are translations of the greek new testament. Jonathan Robie said something like this, "The real meaning of a Greek phrase is not its English translation." Biblical Greek: Learning New Testament and Septuagint Greek

Thanks Tim but I ask God to speak through me to get it right and I think your translations show the same and quite often I have to stop and think because sometimes if we begin to think we are without human error, hopefully God will intervene.
Thank you for your intervening.

Act 2:17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

 

[createdtoworship]

Biblical Greek: Learning New Testament and Septuagint Greek

here is a book you might like....enjoy! and your welcome.

Amazon.com: The Ancient Greeks For Dummies (9780470987872): Stephen Batchelor: Books

 

[createdtoworship]

Thanks Tim but I ask God to speak through me to get it right and I think your translations show the same

what is it telling you when you pray for guidance and God says "no" ???



and tim's translation had "home" in it twice and your had "country" I doubt these are accurate, I mean possibly one maybe but not both.

 

[Radagast]

Anyway, here is the translation that you find SO offensive that you HAVE to insult me for it.
2 Corinthians 5:8 says
θαρροῦμεν δὲ καὶ εὐδοκοῦμεν μᾶλλον ἐκδημῆσαι ἐκ τοῦ σώματος καὶ ἐνδημῆσαι πρὸς τὸν κύριον.
We are of good courage and prefer rather to be away from home from the body and to be at home with the Lord.

I thought that was pretty good. I'd follow Timothew's idea of highlighting the ἐκδημῆσαι -- ἐνδημῆσαι connection and translate something like: Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from our bodily homes and at home with the Lord.

The ESV has: Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The implication here, it seems to me, is that for Christians, "away from the body" implies "at home with the Lord."

 

[Timothew]

I thought that was pretty good. I'd follow Timothew's idea of highlighting the ἐκδημῆσαι -- ἐνδημῆσαι connection and translate something like: Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from our bodily homes and at home with the Lord.

The ESV has: Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

The implication here, it seems to me, is that for Christians, "away from the body" implies "at home with the Lord."

Thanks, if anything I thought my translation helped with the idea that we go from home in our bodies directly to home with the Lord in heaven. But that is a theory that I am moving away from, and I don't believe the verse specifically says that. There may or may not be a period of time between leaving "home" and arriving at "home". A "sleeping" person would not feel any time pass.

 

[he-man]

Thanks, if anything I thought my translation helped with the idea that we go from home in our bodies directly to home with the Lord in heaven. But that is a theory that I am moving away from, and I don't believe the verse specifically says that. There may or may not be a period of time between leaving "home" and arriving at "home". A "sleeping" person would not feel any time pass.

Quite so, since no man has yet ascended to heaven, not even David, but only our Lord.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

 

[Timothew]

Quite so, since no man has yet ascended to heaven, not even David, but only our Lord.

1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

That's what I believe as well.

 

[Radagast]

There may or may not be a period of time between leaving "home" and arriving at "home". A "sleeping" person would not feel any time pass.

Luke 23:43: καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ -- And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

 

[he-man]

Luke 23:43: καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ· ἀμήν σοι λέγω, σήμερον μετ’ ἐμοῦ ἔσῃ ἐν τῷ παραδείσῳ -- And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise.”

I would not want to be in the grave with him because he was dead as a doornail until after the 3rd day when he made that remark,,,,,,