Different state past

[Elendur]

False. Prove it.

Look at the examples I cited, drift, daughter isotopes, and evolving. The present processes are used as the measure. Obviously.

Yes they are used.

They aren't used because they're assumed though, they're inferred.

 

[dad]

Yes they are used.

They aren't used because they're assumed though, they're inferred.

Well, says you. However looking at say, continental drift, how is slow drift 'inferred'??!

There is NO way that is not present state based. None. Whether one 'dates' stuff by present state decay, or looks at present state slow drift!

Come on now.

 

[Elendur]

Well, says you. However looking at say, continental drift, how is slow drift 'inferred'??!

There is NO way that is not present state based. None. Whether one 'dates' stuff by present state decay, or looks at present state slow drift!

Come on now.

Slow drift is inferred by several things, I'm not even well versed in the subject but I can tell you this immediately:

• The fact that they're moving slow is evidence that they did before (since nothing else has ever been observed).
• Fast movement would have drastic consequences, even the slow movement now cause earthquakes, tsunamis and eruptions.
• We would see signs from the violent changes, definitely.
• Rock samples from different places match up, and have aged similarly.

You can read up on inference and induction here:
Inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Inductive reasoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Note, induction is an assumption science has made, you may criticize that if you want)

 

[Farinata]

Show the dating basis. But remember that the record of God predates the ones first written on scrolls.

Ah I see how it works. "We have the oldest record. What? You have a document that predates the Bible? Well then we have an even older imaginary non-physical record that I just made up." Be serious.

You forgot to support your dates. Our record is older.

For example, there are clay tablets with the myth which use the language of Old Akkadian with a particular linguistic style (markings, grammar, etc...) only used during a certain time period (back in the 2000s BCE). There exist seals, depicting events in the myth, that were made during the reign of Sargon of Akkad. The myth of Etana is only one example; by no count is the Bible the world's oldest religious or mythological text.

Hey, bad spirits/good spirits, they still are spirits.

Missing the point. You're giving arbitrary preference to the Bible's view on god, creation, mythology etc... for no good reason. Unless you can put forth salient reasons to believe in the Bible as opposed to the Theogony, you don't have a leg to stand on (hint: simply saying "the bible is word of god" isn't a good reason).

Proof?? Source for this claim?

The mechanism behind earthquakes stems from plate tectonics. This information was not available to ancient peoples. If a hypothesis similar to plate tectonics was made, it was made in ignorance. Hence, allowing for people to say "the earthquakes are god punishing immoral behavior". You can run the same argument for any of the other things listed.

1755 Cape Ann Earthquake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Blather.

Willful ignorance.

Well, if your church was hyped on some soon coming dates, then they were out of it. But remember even if it is not soon, we will be dead one day, and that meeting will have to take place.

Haha quite the opposite. Emphasis was on waiting for "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

 

[Tiberius]

The only ones by observers who lived. If we want to include science evidence, then it agrees with a DSP also, of course. In NO way can any repeat any of it be cornered by your same state belief system.

That in no way guarantees its accuracy.

Wish I could dissuade you from that sort of thinking. It is wonderful to be open minded and inclusive.

I hardly think that you are a good example of open mindedness, seeing as how I have explained to you many times how radiodating alone proves you wrong, and you STILL haven't addressed issues I have raised about it!

Just a voice in the wilderness for now. But a voice that meets the evidences in an amazing way.

lol, you do make me laugh.

 

[dad]

Slow drift is inferred by several things, I'm not even well versed in the subject but I can tell you this immediately:

• The fact that they're moving slow is evidence that they did before (since nothing else has ever been observed).

Ha!!! Absurd. All you can say, then is that for the last 100 years or whatever, the movement was slow! That does not infer anything else.

• We would see signs from the violent changes, definitely.
• Rock samples from different places match up, and have aged similarly.

• Fast movement would have drastic consequences, even the slow movement now cause earthquakes, tsunamis and eruptions.

Well, I would suggest that pushing up mountain ranges like the Rockies was drastic!

You can read up on inference and induction here:
Inference - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Inductive reasoning - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(Note, induction is an assumption science has made, you may criticize that if you want)

Inapplicable to what we are discussing.

 

[dad]

Ah I see how it works. "We have the oldest record. What? You have a document that predates the Bible? Well then we have an even older imaginary non-physical record that I just made up." Be serious.

I have no document that predates the bible. I have a God that does. Since He piped the bible to man, it is not the issue when the oldest hard copy got to earth!

For example, there are clay tablets with the myth which use the language of Old Akkadian with a particular linguistic style (markings, grammar, etc...) only used during a certain time period (back in the 2000s BCE). There exist seals, depicting events in the myth, that were made during the reign of Sargon of Akkad. The myth of Etana is only one example; by no count is the Bible the world's oldest religious or mythological text.

Well, care to date your myth here? 2000 BC? That is nothing!

Missing the point. You're giving arbitrary preference to the Bible's view on god, creation, mythology etc... for no good reason. Unless you can put forth salient reasons to believe in the Bible as opposed to the Theogony, you don't have a leg to stand on (hint: simply saying "the bible is word of god" isn't a good reason).

I have all the reasons I need and more. Now the issue here is not what we believe, but what you claim to know.

The mechanism behind earthquakes stems from plate tectonics. This information was not available to ancient peoples. If a hypothesis similar to plate tectonics was made, it was made in ignorance. Hence, allowing for people to say "the earthquakes are god punishing immoral behavior". You can run the same argument for any of the other things listed.

1755 Cape Ann Earthquake - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

That's why they can predict quakes!!!??? Get serious.


Hey, I agree that the moving of plates can cause quakes though! Just as they will in the end times.

Haha quite the opposite. Emphasis was on waiting for "But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."

So you got tired of waiting for the glorious day..OK.

 

[dad]

That in no way guarantees its accuracy.



I hardly think that you are a good example of open mindedness, seeing as how I have explained to you many times how radiodating alone proves you wrong, and you STILL haven't addressed issues I have raised about it!

So answer this then. If a daughter isotope was here already in the former state, how would you know?

 

[Farinata]

I have no document that predates the bible. I have a God that does. Since He piped the bible to man, it is not the issue when the oldest hard copy got to earth!

Something for which you have no proof other than a strong inner conviction? Yeah that's real convincing.

Well, care to date your myth here? 2000 BC? That is nothing!

Older than the Bible in any case.

I have all the reasons I need and more. Now the issue here is not what we believe, but what you claim to know.

Yet you fail to provide any. Give me a few reasons why the bible should be given this primacy and maybe I'll come around to your way of thinking.

That's why they can predict quakes!!!??? Get serious.

People today understand why earthquakes happen. Ancient peoples did not and attributed them incorrectly, at times, to divine punishments. I don't see what is so hard about this.

So you got tired of waiting for the glorious day..OK.

More like the realization that waiting on a delusion is incredibly sad and a waste of one's life. A little fair observation and the whole structure of premillenial Christianity falls apart.

 

[dad]

Something for which you have no proof other than a strong inner conviction? Yeah that's real convincing.

Prophesies and a risen Christ are proof.

Older than the Bible in any case.

Irrelevant.

Yet you fail to provide any. Give me a few reasons why the bible should be given this primacy and maybe I'll come around to your way of thinking.

Prophesy....Christ risen.

People today understand why earthquakes happen. Ancient peoples did not and attributed them incorrectly, at times, to divine punishments. I don't see what is so hard about this.

False! Both can be true. If the plates move back together rapidly in the tribulation period, there will be a plate movement caused by God.

More like the realization that waiting on a delusion is incredibly sad and a waste of one's life. A little fair observation and the whole structure of premillenial Christianity falls apart.

Christ went into Jerusalem something like 188,000 (or whatever it was) days exactly from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Just as promise, on cue. No delusion involved. The captivity of Israel came to pass as promised for as long as promised, by whom it was promised. In NO possible way can the return of the Messiah be a delusion.

 

[Farinata]

Prophesies and a risen Christ are proof.

Vague prophecies that can fulfill whatever you want them too. A risen Christ you have no proof of other than personal experience (the same sort of proof you'd be over eager to deny Hindus who say they have felt the presence of the god Shiva).

Irrelevant.

Denial.

Prophesy....Christ risen.

False prophecies. A person not considered divine in the earliest form of Christianity. No real historical record of a resurrection.

False! Both can be true. If the plates move back together rapidly in the tribulation period, there will be a plate movement caused by God.

Show me the fast moving plates then we might have a conversation. Modern day earthquakes are all easily explained by natural causes. Shoehorning some divine cause in is intellectually dishonest.

Christ went into Jerusalem something like 188,000 (or whatever it was) days exactly from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. Just as promise, on cue. No delusion involved. The captivity of Israel came to pass as promised for as long as promised, by whom it was promised. In NO possible way can the return of the Messiah be a delusion.

Details request here please. 188,000 days? Please specify both exact dates and the Biblical verses you use to obtain such times.

 

[dad]

Vague prophecies that can fulfill whatever you want them too.

Easy to refute.

173,880 days.

Daniel's Seventy Weeks prophecy

A risen Christ you have no proof of other than personal experience (the same sort of proof you'd be over eager to deny Hindus who say they have felt the presence of the god Shiva).

I do NOT question Hindu demons. Really. I also would not doubt many would feel the spirits. So?? The fact remains that this is 2012. AD!!! Many real people testified to the facts. It changed the world.

Denial.

False. I do not deny that some pagan records pre date the written known copies of the records of heaven. Irrelevant. Our records pre date the planet. Top that!

False prophecies. A person not considered divine in the earliest form of Christianity. No real historical record of a resurrection.

Noo wonder you left whatever 'church' that infused that insane doctrine of devils into you.

Show me the fast moving plates then we might have a conversation. Modern day earthquakes are all easily explained by natural causes.

The plates now move slow. But the creation debate is not about now.

Details request here please. 188,000 days? Please specify both exact dates and the Biblical verses you use to obtain such times.

Done. See above.

 

[Elendur]

Ha!!! Absurd. All you can say, then is that for the last 100 years or whatever, the movement was slow! That does not infer anything else.

If you think that's absurd you don't know the definition of evidence.

Well, I would suggest that pushing up mountain ranges like the Rockies was drastic!

Sure, if it was done over a short time. The current model is applied over a long time.

Inapplicable to what we are discussing.

Then you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Tiberius]

So answer this then. If a daughter isotope was here already in the former state, how would you know?

Because, as I've explained COUNTLESS TIMES in this thread, AGAIN AND AGAIN...

Because the daughter isotopes also often decay. So we can examine the ratio of the parent isotopes to the daughter isotopes, and the granddaughter isotopes and the great granddaughter isotopes...

If they all got there by radioactive decay, we'll find the various isotopes in certain quantities. And this is exactly what we find.

So tell me dad, why would we find the various isotopes in the quantities predicted by radioactive dating if they didn't get there by radioactive decay? Can you actually answer it this time?

 

[dad]

If you think that's absurd you don't know the definition of evidence.

False. Evidence does not consist of basing big stories on partial info. If all you were claiming was that the movement was slow for 100 years that would be evidence backed.

Sure, if it was done over a short time. The current model is applied over a long time.

Exactly! Because they do exactly what I told you, base their old age stories on present stuff. ..and nothin but.

Then you don't know what you're talking about.

Of course I do, the PAST!! Get with the plan.

 

[Split Rock]

Because, as I've explained COUNTLESS TIMES in this thread, AGAIN AND AGAIN...

Because the daughter isotopes also often decay. So we can examine the ratio of the parent isotopes to the daughter isotopes, and the granddaughter isotopes and the great granddaughter isotopes...

If they all got there by radioactive decay, we'll find the various isotopes in certain quantities. And this is exactly what we find.

So tell me dad, why would we find the various isotopes in the quantities predicted by radioactive dating if they didn't get there by radioactive decay? Can you actually answer it this time?

Because GODDIDIT that way, and dad is the Voice of God!

Seriously though, do you have any references for these ratios? Thanks.

 

[dad]

Because the daughter isotopes also often decay. So we can examine the ratio of the parent isotopes to the daughter isotopes, and the granddaughter isotopes and the great granddaughter isotopes...

If the daughter isotope (and other daughters with half lives of more time than this state existed for...4400 years presumably..) were here already, then forget claiming they were produced by decay! get it? Yes, in THIS state they are now produced by radioactive decay. ..that much is known. No more.

If they all got there by radioactive decay, we'll find the various isotopes in certain quantities. And this is exactly what we find.

Meaningless if the various isotopes were also here!

Remember the 5 tennis balls full of water on a board? They are connected by different size little tubes, some allowing water to flow in faster or slower. These then represent the parent to daughter isotopes. When we tilt the board, water starts to flow down into the other balls. Now how much water depends how long we had the board tilted. One cannot determine by looking at the water in each ball how long the board was tilted, UNLESS one knows how much water if any was in any particular ball.

So tell me dad, why would we find the various isotopes in the quantities predicted by radioactive dating if they didn't get there by radioactive decay? Can you actually answer it this time?

See above.

 

[Elendur]

False. Evidence does not consist of basing big stories on partial info. If all you were claiming was that the movement was slow for 100 years that would be evidence backed.

You've maintained that stance then.

You do not know the definition of evidence.

Exactly! Because they do exactly what I told you, base their old age stories on present stuff. ..and nothin but.

The same applies to everyone. Including you.

Of course I do, the PAST!! Get with the plan.

You obviously haven't followed the discussion, the focus has changed.
(If you feel tempted to write "False, with what?", don't bother)

 

[dad]

You've maintained that stance then.

Evidence must relate to what it is supposed to evidence. Elementary.

The same applies to everyone. Including you.

False. I do not base continental drift or mountain building, or decay, or human life spans of the past by present rates and processes.

You obviously haven't followed the discussion, the focus has changed.
(If you feel tempted to write "False, with what?", don't bother)

I lead discussions, not just follow them. This thread is very concerned with what is known about the state of the past. (not by what you see in the present and feel that you can project into the past).

Hows them apples?

 

[Tiberius]

If the daughter isotope (and other daughters with half lives of more time than this state existed for...4400 years presumably..) were here already, then forget claiming they were produced by decay! get it? Yes, in THIS state they are now produced by radioactive decay. ..that much is known. No more.

So then you are saying that all the samples we test that have the exact ratios we'd expect to see if it's all a product of radioactive decay got this particular ratio... how? Magic? A huge coincidence?

How did this ratio come about in EVERY sample we've tested if not by radioactive decay?

Meaningless if the various isotopes were also here!

And as I said above, what an amazing coincidence that EVERY sample we've tested shows the ratio of parent to daughter to granddaughter isotopes that we'd expect to see if they'd been decaying for millions of years...

Remember the 5 tennis balls full of water on a board? They are connected by different size little tubes, some allowing water to flow in faster or slower. These then represent the parent to daughter isotopes. When we tilt the board, water starts to flow down into the other balls. Now how much water depends how long we had the board tilted. One cannot determine by looking at the water in each ball how long the board was tilted, UNLESS one knows how much water if any was in any particular ball.

But if we see a tennis ball that has a certain amount of water in it, we can determine how long the board has been tilted by seeing how long it takes the tennis ball to get that much water with the board tilted to that degree. We can then say that it takes X seconds for a tennis ball to fill with Y amount of water with the board tilted at Z degrees. And then we can look at other balls and we can say things like, "This ball has more than Y amount of water, so there must have been water in the ball before it was tilted."

You don't really think these things through.

See above.

And you.