the awaited messiah of the Jews

[smaneck]

..i don't bye that preterist doctrine that all is fulfilled or dominion theology.

Is there any connection between the two?

 

[dfw69]

Assuming the Ark is found, I suppose. I am not aware of there being a throne room. A throne room suggests a throne. With no physical body, what would be the point?

hmmm...yes of course but....o hold on.. let me see

Ezekiel 43

Vision of the Glory of God Filling the Temple

1 Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east; 2 and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when [a]He came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate facing toward the east. 5 And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me. 7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My thone and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the [b]corpses of their kings [c]when they die, 8 by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put away their harlotry and the [d]corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever. 10 “As for you, son of man, [e]describe the [f]temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the [g]plan. 11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the [h]design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes[i], and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole [j]design and all its statutes and do them. 12 This is the [k]law of the house: its entire [l]area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the [m]law of the house.

 

[smaneck]

Mal 4:5 merely says that Elijkah comes before the great an dreadful day.

It was dreadful to all the pagan Roman world, yet it was also a great day for the Church, when in 380 AD Theo I mandated one singular religion as the only legal worship over all the Roman World and the Christians under one singular denomination united for 1000 years during the Monastic Age of Universal Christianity.

Uh, not quite. Nestorian Christianity breaks off in the 5th century. It will become the dominate form of Christianity in all countries east of the Roman Empire. Monophysite Christianity emerges a generation later and comes to be dominate form of Christianity in Armenia, Ethiopia, Egypt and Syria. It was because of the Roman persecution of these Christians that made them so accepting of the Arab invasions.

 

[dfw69]

Is there any connection between the two?

o i dont know im just saying

 

[LoAmmi]

hmmm...yes of course but....o hold on.. let me see

Ezekiel 43

Vision of the Glory of God Filling the Temple

1 Then he led me to the gate, the gate facing toward the east; 2 and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory. 3 And it was like the appearance of the vision which I saw, like the vision which I saw when [a]He came to destroy the city. And the visions were like the vision which I saw by the river Chebar; and I fell on my face. 4 And the glory of the LORD came into the house by the way of the gate facing toward the east. 5 And the Spirit lifted me up and brought me into the inner court; and behold, the glory of the LORD filled the house.
6 Then I heard one speaking to me from the house, while a man was standing beside me. 7 He said to me, “Son of man, this is the place of My thone and the place of the soles of My feet, where I will dwell among the sons of Israel forever. And the house of Israel will not again defile My holy name, neither they nor their kings, by their harlotry and by the [b]corpses of their kings [c]when they die, 8 by setting their threshold by My threshold and their door post beside My door post, with only the wall between Me and them. And they have defiled My holy name by their abominations which they have committed. So I have consumed them in My anger. 9 Now let them put away their harlotry and the [d]corpses of their kings far from Me; and I will dwell among them forever. 10 “As for you, son of man, [e]describe the [f]temple to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and let them measure the [g]plan. 11 If they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the [h]design of the house, its structure, its exits, its entrances, all its designs, all its statutes[i], and all its laws. And write it in their sight, so that they may observe its whole [j]design and all its statutes and do them. 12 This is the [k]law of the house: its entire [l]area on the top of the mountain all around shall be most holy. Behold, this is the [m]law of the house.

This seems to be getting back into what I was speaking about before. This is an anthropomorphizing of HaShem. He has no feet, He cannot sit in a throne. I would still assume it would be the Holy of Holies and not a room with a chair.

 

[Huram Abi]

And the great Jewish sage of the Middle Ages thought similarly, albeit, before Freud's time and wiuthout the benefit of what we know today:



Maimonides, for example, talks about them at length in his Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Yisodei HaTorah (Laws of the Foundations of the Torah).
While he meticulously classifies angelic rankings (there are ten), in his rationalistic system Maimonides equates them with the Aristotelian "intelligences" that mediate between the spheres.

As such they are conscious and govern the spheres in their motion, but in his Aristotelian context Maimonides is saying they are forms of natural causation rather than supernatural beings.

He also expands his definition to include natural phenomenon and even human psychology (he refers to the libidinous impulse as the "angel of lust").

Sorry, Cupid. You've been corrected on this numerously. You realy don't know the context of Maimonides if you continue to repeat this.

 

[Huram Abi]

Racial...?

The three racial stock theory is a concept that seems confirmed by scripture.
I never thought about whether I ought or ought not believe it, since i have taken it as theory developed through arguments that must have logical correlations with the available evidence.



What I do believe is that the 22 names enumerated in the genealogy in Genesis corresponds very convincingly with the 22 extinct species of Humans which evolutionary theories say ended with Modern man's appearance Out-of-Africa 40 thousand years ago.

I also believe the latest genetic research that confirms that all men today are genetically related (through their Y-chromosome) to just one man, presumably Noah, who lived @40 thousand years ago.

These scientific finds in a totally foreign discipline are very convincing when used to make sense of Genesis in the Theological discipline.
I do see that 22 men who are said to have lived inordinately long lives of 950 years suggests species, not individuals, and the inference is that 950,000 years is what is meant but wisely, not actually stated so directly.

The whole list of the theorized 22 extinct species can be found in the latest book by paleontologists available thru Amazon:


The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans (Hardcover)
by G. J. Sawyer (Author), Viktor Deak (Author), Esteban Sarmiento (Author), Richard Milner (Author), Donald C. Johanson (Foreword), Maeve Leakey (Afterword), Ian Tattersall (Introduction)



The other line through Seth corresponds with the remaining species now extinct:


(1) Seth, (Australopithecus anamensis)
(2) Enos, (Australopithecus africanus)
(3) Cainan, (Australopithecus aethiopicus)
(4) Mahalaleel, (Australopithecus garhi)
(5) Jared, (a species concurrent with Homo rudolfensis)
(6) Enoch, (Homo habilis, walked with God towards the final evolution of Homoiousian man)
(7) Methuselah, (Modern Homo erectus: China, SE Asia H. Erectus)
(8) Lamech, (Homo antecessor)
(9) Noah, (a type of Early Homo sapiens forebearer)
(10) Shem, (Mongolian)
(11) Ham, (Negroid)
(12) Japheth, (Caucasian)

Again, this is neither biblical or scientific.

 

[dfw69]

This seems to be getting back into what I was speaking about before. This is an anthropomorphizing of HaShem. He has no feet, He cannot sit in a throne. I would still assume it would be the Holy of Holies and not a room with a chair.

yeah i figured that much that you were gonna say that....hehe...it was worth a shot...lol

 

[LoAmmi]

yeah i figured that much that you were gonna say that....hehe...it was worth a shot...lol

My view will remain consistent.

 

[smaneck]

Racial...?

The three racial stock theory is a concept that seems confirmed by scripture.
I never thought about whether I ought or ought not believe it, since i have taken it as theory developed through arguments that must have logical correlations with the available evidence.

You may remember that claiming that black people descend from Ham has been the justification which white people have made for enslaving them? Shem, Ham and Japeth all referred to people who were living in the area around Mesopotamia at the time. The Jews considered themselves to be descendants of Shem. Do Jews look Mongoloid to you?

What I do believe is that the 22 names enumerated in the genealogy in Genesis corresponds very convincingly with the 22 extinct species of Humans which evolutionary theories say ended with Modern man's appearance Out-of-Africa 40 thousand years ago.

That's pretty far-fetched. Only slightly preferable to denying evolution altogether, IMV.

I also believe the latest genetic research that confirms that all men today are genetically related (through their Y-chromosome) to just one man, presumably Noah, who lived @40 thousand years ago.

Actually 60 thousand years ago at the latest and there is no reason to think this is Noah. If there was a catastrophe which bottle-necked human evolution (as many scientists believe) it was not a flood but a super-volcanic eruption in Indonesia which caused global cooling.

(1) Seth, (Australopithecus anamensis)
(2) Enos, (Australopithecus africanus)
(3) Cainan, (Australopithecus aethiopicus)
(4) Mahalaleel, (Australopithecus garhi)

You realize that australopithecines were only slightly smarter than other apes and incapable of speech? They didn't even have opposable thumbs yet to make decent tools.

Modern science has entirely discarded the notion of race as not fitting anything we know about human evolution.

 

[dfw69]

well in rev4...we see this


2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a arainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

and thats all that john says about the one on the throne.....its strange to me that john goes to lenthy detail about many things throughout the prophecy.....yet when it comes to the one on the throne....he has this one little paragraph ?!?....wheres the rest?....strange....perhaps it was intensional...perhaps some things were taken away from this prophecy.....speculating does not sit well with anyone on this forum ...who need concrete evidence to be convince....o well

but later the lamb of god goes to the one who sat on the throne and takes the scroll from the hand of him that sat on the throne.....to me its convincing and enough proof that the father is a spiritual being with a spiritual body (yes invisable to the human eye) yet John saw him while he was in spirit......everything has a body....on earth...why not in heaven?,,,,,on earth as it is in heaven.....for me and all christians that i know.... God has a spiritual body and one day i will see him.....actually we all will

 

[dfw69]

My view will remain consistent.

well dont forget pride goes before a fall....so watch it buddy...

 

[LoAmmi]

well in rev4...we see this


2 And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
3 And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a arainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

and thats all that john says about the one on the throne.....its strange to me that john goes to lenthy detail about many things throughout the prophecy.....yet when it comes to the one on the throne....he has this one little paragraph ?!?....wheres the rest?....strange....perhaps it was intensional...perhaps some things were taken away from this prophecy.....speculating does not sit well with anyone on this forum ...who need concrete evidence to be convince....o well

but later the lamb of god goes to the one who sat on the throne and takes the scroll from the hand of him that sat on the throne.....to me its convincing and enough proof that the father is a spiritual being with a spiritual body (yes invisable to the human eye) yet John saw him while he was in spirit......everything has a body....on earth...why not in heaven?,,,,,on earth as it is in heaven.....for me and all christians that i know.... God has a spiritual body and one day i will see him.....actually we all will

Is it not possible that humans see a body on a throne because that is what we can understand? How could we understand seeing nothing? Our ability to interpret messages from the divine is limited to our own ability to understand them

 

[dfw69]

btw...no one has wished me happy birthday today.....i thought i had more friends on this forum....gees...now im a little depressed....

 

[cupid dave]

The references to three and half years in Revelation are precisely the same thing as the references to the number 1260. If you take the lunar calendar of 360 days and times it by 3.5 you come up with the number 1260. Revelation keeps pointing to the number 1260 in different ways. The Muslim year 1260 corresponds with 1844 in the Christian calendar, the same year that William Miller believed Christ would return. Miller based his calculations on the premise that the Abomination of Desolation referred to the destruction of the First Temple. Jews were allowed to begin rebuilding the Temple in 457 B.C. by adding 2300 years to that (based on Daniel 8:14. he arrived at that date.

Miller was wrong to have used the date of a second decree from Persia, in 457BC, concerning the new Temple project already under construction.

It was the Cyrus Decree of 516BC that had released the Jews from that captivity and authorized the re-building of a second Temple and the return of all the sacred vessels.

If Miller had used the correct date of 516AD, then the 2300 years would have coincided with what Revelation 12:14 says, in that, America came officially into existence in Sept 1783, or 2300 - 516 = 1784:


Treaty of Paris (1783)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Treaty of Paris, signed on September 3, 1783, ended the American Revolutionary War between Great Britain on the one hand and the United States of America and its allies on the other.






Rev. 12:14 And (again), to the woman, (Judaeo-Christianity), WERE given two wings of a great (American) eagle (in 1585AD): that she, (Judaeo-Christianity), might fly into the wilderness (in 1585, when settlers were first left on island at Roanoke Colony Colony of Virginia), where she is nourished: [Hos 2:15 -16] for a time (of a thousand), and times (of another thousand), and half a time, (500 years, until 1784AD when America was formally established by Treaty of War with England), from the face of the (pagan) serpent (of the Renaissance).

 

[Booko]

ah....wait a minute....what your saying is...god is not a man...but a spirit...

Yes, because that's what St. John says:

John 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Christians believe god looks like us .....having a body....because we believe that we are created in the image of god.....but god has no form....so we are wrong......right?

"Christians"?

I think maybe you need to check with the Christians on this forum and see if they actually agree with that. A poll or something would be good.

Mormons believe God has a body.

I'm unaware of that being a belief among normative Christians and I have seen them criticize LDS rather strenuously, calling this idea heretical.

Oh yes, this is the heresy about God having a body:

Audianism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If you really believe that God has a physical body, I would suggest maybe it may be worth your while to consult with some other Christians about this? I'm sure there's some forum here specifically for that sort of thing, though I don't know which it would be since I don't go anywhere but this subforum.

 

[cupid dave]

It is actually a rather simple thing.

In general, what Jews expect the Messiah to do, Christians expect Jesus to do in the Second Coming.


Certain details such as people being judged to go to Hell are different, but the basic result is the same.

Doesn't what you say here support the hypothesis that Jesus in 32AD MUST have been Elijah, the predeccessor of this coming messiah of the Jews, and the expected one of the Christians????

 

[Booko]

No, that is not an orthodox Jewish teaching. This is a misconception of those who don't understand the messianic concept in Jewish culture. The two messaihs theory is a recent development and only relevant to a sect of "Jews for Jesus."

Just fyi, it seems pretty similar to some Baha'i ideas about Biblical prophecies, but we have never had a reason to claim to be Jews (and we won't).

 

[cupid dave]

Is it not possible that humans see a body on a throne because that is what we can understand? How could we understand seeing nothing? Our ability to interpret messages from the divine is limited to our own ability to understand them

Remember, the kingdom of God is within., (i.e.; his throne et al),...

"Within" is a mental World of invisible non corporal thoughts i.e., spirit entities.

Gen. 1:26 And God, (Father Nature, Reality), said, Let us, (these Natural Laws, together, in pan-en-theistic expression of the Spirit of God: [Gen 1:2]), make man, (through the process of gradual evolution ending in the finished Adam i.e.; Jesus),... Let us make man, (as a reflection of Reality, in his mind, able, through Truth, to immanently reflect the "I am" of this existence: [John 14:6]), IN OUR IMAGE, (after the spirit of our orderly panentheistic organization): and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

 

[Booko]

btw...no one has wished me happy birthday today.....i thought i had more friends on this forum....gees...now im a little depressed....

Where would I have seen it was your birthday? If it's the front page I never load it.

But anyway: