the awaited messiah of the Jews

[cupid dave]

1) for me....just because enoch and elijah were to come back after being alive in heaven for so long does not make them gods or immortal......

they could have simply been sustain by the power of god or have access to the tree of life ....when they return and finish their prophecing they are going to be killed by the beast out of the bottomless pit....then resurrected

1) Enoch was "translated," not ascended into heaven.
This seems to be a different concept especially because it is part of a genealogy that can be understood today, in this Age, as a list of the 22 species in our evolution from the missing link to modern man, or the emergence of the three racial stocks which the bible calls Ham, Japheth, and Shem.


Gen. 5:32 And Noah, (an archaic type of Homo sapiens' forebearer), was five hundred (thousand) years old: and Noah begat (three racial stocks of Modern Homo sapiens); Shem, (Mongolian), Ham, (Negroid), and Japheth, (Caucasian).





This argument is based on the scriptures which say Adam was a speies, not individual person:



Gen 5:2 Male and female created he THEM; and blessed THEM, and called THEIR name "Adam," (a species or kind) in the day when THEY were created.




2) Enoch did not and is not in scritpure said to return, is he?
And where is your scripture for the beast killing Elijah?


3) According to the Dictionary, the concept of a God in Roman and Greek classical iterature is evidence of his immortality.
For Elijah to never die, yet return 800 year later seems a RATIONAL confirmation of his divinity.

 

[cupid dave]

Why not?
What difference does it make?

2X

 

[dfw69]

Why not? What difference does it make?

why cant i just get a simple answer...lol...loAmmi im just trying to understand you....and i don't understand why you say elijah is coming before the messiah who is a man...when it says that elijah is sent before Yhwh judgement day

 

[LoAmmi]

why cant i just get just a simple answer...lol...loAmmi im just trying to understand you....and i don't understand why you say elijah is coming before the messiah who is a man...when it says that elijah is sent before Yhwh judgement day

The Great and Terrible Day is not "Judgement Day" in my opinion. There is a warning about the coming of the Messiah that it will be a tough time. Israel will be attacked on all sides, people will be afraid, there will be a lot of problems. Even though the Jewish people will come out alright, it is not going to be a happy time. So, they both refer to the messianic age beginning.

 

[dfw69]

The Great and Terrible Day is not "Judgement Day" in my opinion. There is a warning about the coming of the Messiah that it will be a tough time. Israel will be attacked on all sides, people will be afraid, there will be a lot of problems. Even though the Jewish people will come out alright, it is not going to be a happy time. So, they both refer to the messianic age beginning.

Well let me ask you this.....do you believe that yhwh comes to live here with man?....and before he comes elijah precedes him?...because that's what i believe the text is saying

 

[LoAmmi]

Well let me ask you this.....do you believe that yhwh comes to live here with man?....and before he comes elijah precedes him?...because that's what i believe the text is saying

He does not come down as a man. I do not see anything in the Tanakh to support that notion.

If you would like to point out Him residing with the people, that is a reference to the Temple where His glory resided within.

 

[dfw69]

The Great and Terrible Day is not "Judgement Day" in my opinion. There is a warning about the coming of the Messiah that it will be a tough time. Israel will be attacked on all sides, people will be afraid, there will be a lot of problems. Even though the Jewish people will come out alright, it is not going to be a happy time. So, they both refer to the messianic age beginning.

I have read somewhere and i can probably find the link again if i look....it said that the Talmud teaches........that elijah comes then the messiah....the messiah has a son to rule after he dies....then the son has a son and reigns after he is gone...after this 3rd king....yhwh comes....is this what judaism teaches?

 

[cupid dave]

why cant i just get a simple answer...lol...loAmmi im just trying to understand you....and i don't understand why you say elijah is coming before the messiah who is a man...when it says that elijah is sent before Yhwh judgement day

Mal 4:5 merely says that Elijkah comes before the great an dreadful day.

It was dreadful to all the pagan Roman world, yet it was also a great day for the Church, when in 380 AD Theo I mandated one singular religion as the only legal worship over all the Roman World and the Christians under one singular denomination united for 1000 years during the Monastic Age of Universal Christianity.

Where did it say another man would come?

5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


That "day" came in 380AD:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (Christianity mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (of the revival of that Roman Culture including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands; and they, (the saints or apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since 32AD, those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remain)...

....and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).

 

[dfw69]

He does not come down as a man. I do not see anything in the Tanakh to support that notion.

If you would like to point out Him residing with the people, that is a reference to the Temple where His glory resided within.

ah....wait a minute....what your saying is...god is not a man...but a spirit...

Christians believe god looks like us .....having a body....because we believe that we are created in the image of god.....but god has no form....so we are wrong......right?

 

[cupid dave]

I have read somewhere and i can probably find the link again if i look....it said that the Talmud teaches........that elijah comes then the messiah....the messiah has a son to rule after he dies....then the son has a son and reigns after he is gone...after this 3rd king....yhwh comes....is this what judaism teaches?

Yes, that is the two messiah interpretation, one is the suffering messiah, called messiah ben Joseph.
That was the son of man, Jesus.

The second messiah, in this Age, is the king of the Bible who opens it in the last days, he is the messiah ben David.

 

[dfw69]

Mal 4:5 merely says that Elijkah comes before the great an dreadful day.

It was dreadful to all the pagan Roman world, yet it was also a great day for the Church, when in 380 AD Theo I mandated one singular religion as the only legal worship over all the Roman World and the Christians under one singular denomination united for 1000 years during the Monastic Age of Universal Christianity.

Where did it say another man would come?

5Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


That "day" came in 380AD:

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones (of Universal Christian authority) and they, (the 144,000 monks of Catholic monasticism: [Rev14:4]), sat upon them, (Christianity mandated as the ONLY legal religion in the Empire, in 380AD), and (theocratic) judgment was given unto them (in the days of Catholic Monasticism): and I saw the souls, (the spirit-like psyches or thinking) of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the (one) word of God, (Truth), and which had not worshipped (by participation in the paganistic practices and sexual excesses fueling) the beast (of the revival of that Roman Culture including the economic system which had been based upon selfish self-interest), neither his image (on his coinage), neither had received his mark (of ledgered accounts recorded) upon their foreheads, or in (wages in) their hands; and they, (the saints or apostles), lived (as angels in the minds of the Christians who have followed since 32AD, those beheaded saints, in the memories of the congregations who worshipped in churches built upon the bones of their remain)...

....and (they) reigned (in Monasticism) with Christ a thousand years, (from 54 AD upon the appearance of the Holy Comforter, until 1054 AD with the first Schism of Greek Orthodoxy).

.....



im sorry cupid Dave....but your wasting you time if your trying to convince me .....im a futurist....i think......lol....i don't bye that preterist doctrine that all is fulfilled or dominion theology...and whatever else they teach.....i believe its false doctrine

 

[LoAmmi]

ah....wait a minute....what your saying is...god is not a man...but a spirit...

Christians believe god looks like us .....having a body....because we believe that we are created in the image of god.....but god has no form....so we are wrong......right?

It is not a standard Christian belief that humans look (appear) the same as the Father.

Much like Jewish interpretation, many Christians believe this means that man was created either with a soul or with the ability to reason like HaShem has. It has never been a Jewish idea that we physically look like HaShem. He even tells the people the He has no form.

 

[dfw69]

It is not a standard Christian belief that humans look (appear) the same as the Father.

Much like Jewish interpretation, many Christians believe this means that man was created either with a soul or with the ability to reason like HaShem has. It has never been a Jewish idea that we physically look like HaShem. He even tells the people the He has no form.

Well when i say Christians....i mean the christians that i know....lol

so never?......hmmm ....well i guess its also a Christians concept...huh ?

 

[dfw69]

I have read somewhere and i can probably find the link again if i look....it said that the Talmud teaches........that elijah comes then the messiah....the messiah has a son to rule after he dies....then the son has a son and reigns after he is gone...after this 3rd king....yhwh comes....is this what judaism teaches?

.....this question was for you

 

[LoAmmi]

Well when i say Christians....i mean the christians that i know....lol

so never?......hmmm ....well i guess its also a Christians concept...huh ?

Paul states in Colossians 1 that the Father is invisible. If you wish to disagree with Paul as a Christian, that is your choice. However, it reflects the normal Jewish idea that HaShem has no form.

People like Thomas Aquinas stated much the same.

 

[LoAmmi]

I have read somewhere and i can probably find the link again if i look....it said that the Talmud teaches........that elijah comes then the messiah....the messiah has a son to rule after he dies....then the son has a son and reigns after he is gone...after this 3rd king....yhwh comes....is this what judaism teaches?

I would want to see the link. This is not something I have read previously.

 

[dfw69]

Paul states in Colossians 1 that the Father is invisible. If you wish to disagree with Paul as a Christian, that is your choice. However, it reflects the normal Jewish idea that HaShem has no form.

People like Thomas Aquinas stated much the same.

boy!!...that messes up my theology.....i thought Jacob actually wrestled with god.....and elijah actually saw gods hind parts.....i wonder what Moses saw when he saw god face to face when god has no face......

 

[LoAmmi]

boy!!...that messes up my theology.....i thought Jacob actually wrestled with god.....and elijah actually saw gods hind parts.....i wonder what Moses saw when he saw god face to face when god has no face......

It is generally understood that when things are said like Moses was face-to-face it is anthropomorphizing to make it easier for us to understand. Much like it is written that HaShem stretched forth His hand, we do not picture a man on a throne reaching forward.

For Jacob, we understand it as wrestling with an angel not the divine.

 

[dfw69]

It is generally understood that when things are said like Moses was face-to-face it is anthropomorphizing to make it easier for us to understand. Much like it is written that HaShem stretched forth His hand, we do not picture a man on a throne reaching forward.

For Jacob, we understand it as wrestling with an angel not the divine.

......

well im going to let you go......and stop here for now...looks like a good stoping point...peace

 

[Huram Abi]

Yes, that is the two messiah interpretation, one is the suffering messiah, called messiah ben Joseph.
That was the son of man, Jesus.

The second messiah, in this Age, is the king of the Bible who opens it in the last days, he is the messiah ben David.

No, that is not an orthodox Jewish teaching. This is a misconception of those who don't understand the messianic concept in Jewish culture. The two messaihs theory is a recent development and only relevant to a sect of "Jews for Jesus."