the awaited messiah of the Jews

[LoAmmi]

No, that is not an orthodox Jewish teaching. This is a misconception of those who don't understand the messianic concept in Jewish culture. The two messaihs theory is a recent development and only relevant to a sect of "Jews for Jesus."

It depends on how you want to look at it. Since you seem to understand, I will not get into how the term messiah was never exclusive to one person. Some have described the Messiah ben Joseph as the person who is killed in the prophecy found in Zech 12(I think). I have seen this in Jewish understandings. I usually do not get into it here for some obvious reasons.

 

[Huram Abi]

Sure... Of course that is a completely different conversation than what Cupid Dave is talking about when he carelessly and erroneously claims that Jews believe in a 2 messiah concept.

 

[LoAmmi]

Sure... Of course that is a completely different conversation than what Cupid Dave is talking about when he carelessly and erroneously claims that Jews believe in a 2 messiah concept.

I would agree completely.

 

[a_ntv]

Sure... Of course that is a completely different conversation than what Cupid Dave is talking about when he carelessly and erroneously claims that Jews believe in a 2 messiah concept.

Well the only trace of a 2 messiah concept is in Zech 4,14: two contemporary messiah, probably one high priest and one king (in origin presumably Zorobabel and Joshua).

For sure the early Jewish-Christians saw in Christ the fullness of the type indicated in such prophecy, being considered Chirst either high priest and king.

 

[cupid dave]

.....



im sorry cupid Dave....but your wasting you time if your trying to convince me .....im a futurist....i think......lol....i don't bye that preterist doctrine that all is fulfilled or dominion theology...and whatever else they teach.....i believe its false doctrine

Oh, for sure.

The doctrines are wrong.
And my book report on the bible is just one of many which some people might buy into and most will stick withtheir friends and church buddies, as is the cae in the religious community.


My interest is Literary Criticism.

Whether one believes the bible or takes it serious is quite different from whether one reads with comprhension and can explain what it is saying.

 

[cupid dave]

ah....wait a minute....what your saying is...god is not a man...but a spirit...

Christians believe god looks like us .....having a body....because we believe that we are created in the image of god.....but god has no form....so we are wrong......right?

Until Freud people did not really separate the mind from the body as if it were a different entity and one that is rather independent from the other.

Our bodies are akin to our cars, where we as more like the driver of that machine.
So when Genesis says man can image God it means in the non corporal mental way which it calls spirit or mind.



God is all there is, ie; Reality itself...

... the Holy Spirit, the image of God, is present inside our mind when our thinking images the TRUTH, or the picture of Reality inside our mind.

 

[cupid dave]

boy!!...that messes up my theology.....i thought Jacob actually wrestled with god.....and elijah actually saw gods hind parts.....i wonder what Moses saw when he saw god face to face when god has no face......

Good points...

People in this very Age today are going to come face to face with Reality as the Scientific Method defines the body of Truth which corresponds to that Reality, one-to-one.

We all wrestle with the evil spirits mentally, as Freud explained.
Wrestling with God seems all to graphic an implied physical contact, but we must remember that Jacob was aslleep.

The whole episode was a mental psychic experience, no less real than if Jacob had been grasping at a physical entity.

1) Lucifer = ............... Id
2) Satan =........ ...........Libido
3) Mammon = ............ Ego
4) Devil = .................. Anima
5) Beelzebub = .......... Self
6) False Prophet =.......Superego
7) False Shepherd = ... Harmony

8) The Good Shepherd = ...Conscience


Now this idea at first seems all too far out of the mainstream thought of the religious community, but it clearly is supported by Luke 17:21, where we are told: the Kingdom of God is within.

And the great Jewish sage of the Middle Ages thought similarly, albeit, before Freud's time and wiuthout the benefit of what we know today:



Maimonides, for example, talks about them at length in his Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Yisodei HaTorah (Laws of the Foundations of the Torah).
While he meticulously classifies angelic rankings (there are ten), in his rationalistic system Maimonides equates them with the Aristotelian "intelligences" that mediate between the spheres.

As such they are conscious and govern the spheres in their motion, but in his Aristotelian context Maimonides is saying they are forms of natural causation rather than supernatural beings.

He also expands his definition to include natural phenomenon and even human psychology (he refers to the libidinous impulse as the "angel of lust").

 

[smaneck]

well i asume paul wrote....being a hebrew

Uh, do were all the other writers of the NT with the possible exception of Luke-Acts.

 

[smaneck]

1)
Gen. 5:32 And Noah, (an archaic type of Homo sapiens' forebearer), was five hundred (thousand) years old: and Noah begat (three racial stocks of Modern Homo sapiens); Shem, (Mongolian), Ham, (Negroid), and Japheth, (Caucasian).

Please tell me you don't believe this racist interpretation of scripture?

 

[cupid dave]

It is generally understood that when things are said like Moses was face-to-face it is anthropomorphizing to make it easier for us to understand.
1) Much like it is written that HaShem stretched forth His hand, we do not picture a man on a throne reaching forward.

2) For Jacob, we understand it as wrestling with an angel not the divine.

2) My point exactly... "Maimonides expands his definition to include natural phenomenon and even human psychology (he refers to the libidinous impulse as the 'angel of lust')."


1) In regard to the references concerning the hand of God, there are indications in the ritual of the Kohans, as we can discover on their tombstones and the remaining vistages of the Hand Blessing still performed in the synagogues today, that the scriotures are referring to the priestly Hand which has the divine connection with God in that his "word" is and once was totally encoded on the hand as a mnemonic cueing divice used for the oral telling of the Torah.

As we know, the Torah was not canonized until @900BC, which was 460 years after Moses.

 

[dfw69]

He does not come down as a man. I do not see anything in the Tanakh to support that notion.

If you would like to point out Him residing with the people, that is a reference to the Temple where His glory resided within.

....

so elijah the man comes first and prepares the way for the anointed one

then the anointed one comes during days of suffering

then the temple is built and then YHWH comes and resides in the temple throne room in spirit....the glory of the lord will reside with the people forever....paradise...

does YHWH glory come right away as soon as the temple is finished or is there a waiting period?

and the messiah will be one born in the lineage of david?....not joseph?

and that a messiah is anyone anointed of Hashem?

 

[smaneck]

The references to three and half years in Revelation are precisely the same thing as the references to the number 1260. If you take the lunar calendar of 360 days and times it by 3.5 you come up with the number 1260. Revelation keeps pointing to the number 1260 in different ways. The Muslim year 1260 corresponds with 1844 in the Christian calendar, the same year that William Miller believed Christ would return. Miller based his calculations on the premise that the Abomination of Desolation referred to the destruction of the First Temple. Jews were allowed to begin rebuilding the Temple in 457 B.C. by adding 2300 years to that (based on Daniel 8:14. he arrived at that date.

 

[LoAmmi]

....

so elijah the man comes first and prepares the way for the anointed one

then the anointed one comes during days of suffering

then the temple is built and then YHWH comes and resides in the temple throne room in spirit....the glory of the lord will reside with the people forever....paradise...

Well, in the Holy of Holies. Not a throne room.

does YHWH glory come right away as soon as the temple is finished or is there a waiting period?

I am not sure. I am not sure if there is an answer.

and the messiah will be one born in the lineage of david?....not joseph?

The Messiah will be of David through Solomon.

and that a messiah is anyone anointed of Hashem?

Cyrus the Persian was called a messiah. So, yes.

 

[dfw69]

Uh, do were all the other writers of the NT with the possible exception of Luke-Acts.

okay you made your point....give me a break its my birthday today...gees....lol..

 

[dfw69]

Well, in the Holy of Holies. Not a throne room.

I am not sure. I am not sure if there is an answer.

The Messiah will be of David through Solomon.

Cyrus the Persian was called a messiah. So, yes.

you are a good teacher of your faith....though i dont always agree with you, but for some reason i trust that you are teaching me correctly to the best of your knowledge....thank you for that

 

[smaneck]

Dan. 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, (70 AD), and the abomination (of the Mosque of Omar) that maketh desolate (the holiest of the Holy Place be) set up (in 690 AD), there shall be (1290 years), a thousand two hundred and ninety days, (until Jews, 1980 AD, again are in possession of the Capital, Jerusalem).

I think it is silly to consider the Dome of the Rock the Abomination of Desolation. Jews had been expelled from Jerusalem by Christians centuries before the Dome of the Rock was built. If indeed it was built over the Holy of Holies as has been suggested, it has preserved that site, not desecrated it. The Chief Rabbinate in Israel does not let Jews walk anywhere on the Temple mound because they are not sure where it is.

 

[dfw69]

so LoAmmi.....are you saying ezekiels description of the messianic era temple does not have a throne room?.....that in the holy of holies....the ark will be placed there again as the days of old?

 

[smaneck]

2)
As we know, the Torah was not canonized until @900BC, which was 460 years after Moses.

Where did you get that figure from? I've never heard it.

 

[cupid dave]

Please tell me you don't believe this racist interpretation of scripture?

Racial...?

The three racial stock theory is a concept that seems confirmed by scripture.
I never thought about whether I ought or ought not believe it, since i have taken it as theory developed through arguments that must have logical correlations with the available evidence.



What I do believe is that the 22 names enumerated in the genealogy in Genesis corresponds very convincingly with the 22 extinct species of Humans which evolutionary theories say ended with Modern man's appearance Out-of-Africa 40 thousand years ago.

I also believe the latest genetic research that confirms that all men today are genetically related (through their Y-chromosome) to just one man, presumably Noah, who lived @40 thousand years ago.

These scientific finds in a totally foreign discipline are very convincing when used to make sense of Genesis in the Theological discipline.
I do see that 22 men who are said to have lived inordinately long lives of 950 years suggests species, not individuals, and the inference is that 950,000 years is what is meant but wisely, not actually stated so directly.

The whole list of the theorized 22 extinct species can be found in the latest book by paleontologists available thru Amazon:


The Last Human: A Guide to Twenty-Two Species of Extinct Humans (Hardcover)
by G. J. Sawyer (Author), Viktor Deak (Author), Esteban Sarmiento (Author), Richard Milner (Author), Donald C. Johanson (Foreword), Maeve Leakey (Afterword), Ian Tattersall (Introduction)



The other line through Seth corresponds with the remaining species now extinct:


(1) Seth, (Australopithecus anamensis)
(2) Enos, (Australopithecus africanus)
(3) Cainan, (Australopithecus aethiopicus)
(4) Mahalaleel, (Australopithecus garhi)
(5) Jared, (a species concurrent with Homo rudolfensis)
(6) Enoch, (Homo habilis, walked with God towards the final evolution of Homoiousian man)
(7) Methuselah, (Modern Homo erectus: China, SE Asia H. Erectus)
(8) Lamech, (Homo antecessor)
(9) Noah, (a type of Early Homo sapiens forebearer)
(10) Shem, (Mongolian)
(11) Ham, (Negroid)
(12) Japheth, (Caucasian)

 

[LoAmmi]

so LoAmmi.....are you saying ezekiels description of the messianic era temple does not have a throne room?.....that in the holy of holies....the ark will be placed there again as the days of old?

Assuming the Ark is found, I suppose. I am not aware of there being a throne room. A throne room suggests a throne. With no physical body, what would be the point?