Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Avodat]

Makes me shake my head and wonder the motivation for some to need to label anyone they don't agree with or understand. I see it as a control issue. "If you don't fit into my neat package - then I'll fit you into my own perception".

I think sometimes that it is useful in our own minds to categorise people. In that way we address their posts / situations accordingly. But it doesn't do to categorise people publicly in our posts.

 

[Tishri1]

The issue with what many Major Messianic organizations do is that many associated with them may have variations of things like Two House or Sacred Name, although it is a smaller degree. As it concerns making a place for them, how far would that go? Would that also go for others who may not be in agreement with Paul/feel he is off since there have been Messianics here of that persuasion? WOuld that also include Messianics who are for Trinitarian thought or Messianics of differing variations since we've also had variety there as well?

See that's why we don't label . As soon as labels come in we find flaming offensive posts follow , people don't need their worship preferences labeled and especially by others who don't know their heart,

If folks want to pick an icon that reflects their denomination or faith group fine, but aside from that or a small notation in their siggy or title , we don't allow labels or name calling from those around them. I suggest we don't make a list of groups to segregate as that will encourage the labels, what we can do is have subjects off topic in here

We already have a few

Anti paul
Non tinitarian
And anti Torah campaigns

We can have a few more if you want and we can have a list of offensive labels

Some one said two house is a belief and therefore debatable, true but if in that debate you associate it with folks who post here and they haven't said "hey everyone , I'm two house" then you are offending them:

Many may appear one way because of similar traits but that doesn't make them that way

My congregation is UMJC, they are not one law, but half our congregation is gentile and they observe Torah to some degree, from maybe kosher diet to completely observant...that doesn't make us one law although if looking to place labels you could deffinately see the opportunity to liable us that way since we all follow the same Torah laws, some more than others


This is just an example why labels are not good to make here.

Ok so if there was a list of offensive labels what would that be ?

 

[Chaplain David]

See that's why we don't label . As soon as labels come in we find flaming offensive posts follow , people don't need their worship preferences labels and especially by others who don't know their heart, if folks want to pick an icon that reflects their denomination or faith group fine, but aside from that or a small notation in their wiggy or title , we don't allow labels or name calling from those around them. I suggest we don't make a list either, as that will encourage the labels, what we can do is have subjects off topic in here

We already have a few

Anti paul
Non tinitarian
And anti Torah campaigns

We can have a few more if you want and we can have a list of offensive labels

Some one said two house is a belief and therefore debatable, true but if in that debate you associate it with folks who post here and they haven't said "hey everyone , I'm two house" then you are offending them:

Many may appear one way because of similar traits but that doesn't make them that way

My congregation is UMJC, they are not one law, but half our congregation is gentile and they observe Torah to some degree, from maybe kosher diet to completely observant...that doesn't make us one law although if looking to place labels you could deffinately see the opportunity to liable us that way since we all follow the same Torah laws, some more than others


This is just an example why labels are not good to make here.

Ok so if there was a list of offensive labels what would that be ?

We (general we) have got to learn how to post without flaming and responding unkindly to each other. We will never be perfect in this life but I know we can do better and that is one of the main things we are aiming for, posting with love. That is not just a syrupy word describing nebulous good feelings but one I've always looked at as a verb. While love is something that we feel the most important aspects are what we do. I did not coin this phrase but oft repeat it. Love is a verb. Shalom.

 

[Tishri1]

Over regulation jumps out as I read this thread. A real problem. The obvious effect is that the more rules you have the less participation you have. I really don't see what the "big problem" is now, as things are. The rules in place are just fine. It's about how they are interpreted and applied.

We are not creating more rules persay, we are discussing name calling and derailing threads with debate on Torah.....the fact is things are not fine or we wouldn't be here, how do you see improvements being made?
we can't just have folks acting like enemies in a faith group forum, what can be done to bring more civility in here CM?
How do we create that atmosphere of family and friends again? How do you do that

Do you have examples?

 

[Tishri1]

....not to mention the question of "what is?" the Torah in the first place. This is part of the problem- one man's Torah observance is "not Jewish enough" or "too Jewish" or "too grace alone" for another.

People just need to back off from judging each others' personal practices.

 

[Tishri1]

The part I bolded, the only thing I would word differently is to add "People have different opinions and beliefs. It is fine to share yours with the understanding that they will also share theirs - and you may never come to common ground. This is OK. Respect is key here."



I think we're getting somewhere.

That's very good, can you add that so we can see how it looks?

 

[anisavta]

Doing taxes today. Ahhhhhhhh. Will be back momentarily. Pray for me - I'm goin' in!!

 

[Tishri1]

Makes me shake my head and wonder the motivation for some to need to label anyone they don't agree with or understand. I see it as a control issue. "If you don't fit into my neat package - then I'll fit you into my own perception".

That's what I thought, how would you word the desire of this group not to label folks(I like how cm said it but maybe softer)?

 

[Tishri1]

I agree Sister MessianicMommy,

Respect, yes! Not so quick or sharp with our tongues but acting like and posting in a manner what we know in our hearts, that the other is our brother or sister in Christ (Messiah), not an enemy.

I have also found that giving someone the benefit of the doubt, or said in another way, posting deferentially is helpful. There is no reason one cannot speak their truth, and the other their truth, and be friends while doing it and depart as friends.

Shalom

This is soooo good can you give examples?

 

[Tishri1]

I think sometimes that it is useful in our own minds to categorise people. In that way we address their posts / situations accordingly. But it doesn't do to categorise people publicly in our posts.

Fair enough I think we all do that at times, sometimes we are pleasantly surprised when we find out we were wrong too, I've seen a few here discover that thru out this thread

Most who come here are not welcome if they sound to Christian and that could be a problem as it does take time to become aquatinted with the style of different groups....anything we can do to lighten up,

ideas?

 

[Tishri1]

We (general we) have got to learn how to post without flaming and responding unkindly to each other. We will never be perfect in this life but I know we can do better and that is one of the main things we are aiming for, posting with love. That is not just a syrupy word describing nebulous good feelings but one I've always looked at as a verb. While love is something that we feel the most important aspects are what we do. I did not coin this phrase but oft repeat it. Love is a verb. Shalom.

I like that phrase, we should use it in here

 

[Tishri1]

Doing taxes today. Ahhhhhhhh. Will be back momentarily. Pray for me - I'm goin' in!!

Keep the tea and coffee handy and healthy snacks

 

[Chaplain David]

This is soooo good can you give examples?

Deferential Posting, you could also call it Positive Posting
​

I believe that one of the main things we have to take off the table first of all is who is right and who is wrong ---- or said in another way, who is doing it the right way and who is doing it the wrong way. Let me give a brief scenario.
It might seem rather simplistic but it is sometimes the simple things that are the most important. It will be illustrated by two posters who have stated they are Messianic Jews.

Problematic Posting:

Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: We don't do it that way, A & B should not even be a part of Shabbat. The real observance of Shabbat is C & D. Doing A & B on Shabbat is not what God has told us to do. How can you even think of such a thing?

Poster 1: Since when do you have a direct line to God? I think doing C & D on Shabbat is not only wrong but blasphemous. You aught to be ashamed.

Poster 2: You've proven what kind of MJ you are again and again. If you were really MJ you would do C & D and quit trying to dictate to the rest of us how holy you are and that we only need to do A & B.

Comment, in the above discussion you will notice the exchange of information and the beginning of discussion but it quickly goes into holier than thou, flaming, goading, and negativity with each trying to tell the other how right they are and how wrong they are. This is sad and happens all too often. It's roots lay in each saying that their way is the right way. Neither is showing any affection, courtesy or respect. Neither is acting deferentially, open minded or accepting.

------------------------
​

Deferential Posting:

Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: That's interesting. We don't do that. We do C & D on Shabbat. (notice the lack of putdowns and slurs and the courtesy at the beginning?)

Poster 1: I've only heard of doing C & D on Shabbat in passing would you tell me about it? (Notice the interest and not critisizing the other poster because he observes Shabbat differently?)

Poster 2: Well, C & D is ............. and we do it because..........I've heard of A & B but frankly, it didn't seem to fit. How do you incorporate A & B into Shabbat? I'm not sure that we will but I would like to hear about it. (The poster is being openminded and more importantly respectful of the other poster).

Poster 1: Doing A & B ............and helps us honor God's..............and we also believe that ................. I don't know if doing C & D is something that we would incorporate but it is something to think about. Thanks for sharing something this personal with me. (No criticism, openminded, shows affection)

Poster 2: I enjoy hearing about how different MJ's observe Shabbat and you've opened my eyes to a couple of things. I really appreciate it. Have you heard about the upcoming convention..................

Deferential or Positive Posting is not sacrificing one's beliefs. It is giving the other poster the benefit of the doubt. It is not necessarily adopting what the other believes or is trying to say but it is affirming the person's right to say it, not calling him wrong just because there is a difference in opinion, and treating each other as part of the Body. There is also a distinct lack of the destructive elements of posting that include things like flaming, goading, harassing, judgmentalism, and condemnation. Also, respect is key.

If I see any actually posts that show the above I'll copy and paste them in .

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

​

Deferential Posting, you could also call it Positive Posting
​

I believe that one of the main things we have to take off the table first of all is who is right and who is wrong ---- or said in another way, who is doing it the right way and who is doing it the wrong way. Let me give a brief scenario.
It might seem rather simplistic but it is sometimes the simple things that are the most important. It will be illustrated by two posters who have stated they are Messianic Jews.

Problematic Posting:

Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: We don't do it that way, A & B should not even be a part of Shabbat. The real observance of Shabbat is C & D. Doing A & B on Shabbat is not what God has told us to do. How can you even think of such a thing?

Poster 1: Since when do you have a direct line to God? I think doing C & D on Shabbat is not only wrong but blasphemous. You aught to be ashamed.

Poster 2: You've proven what kind of MJ you are again and again. If you were really MJ you would do C & D and quit trying to dictate to the rest of us how holy you are and that we only need to do A & B.

Comment, in the above discussion you will notice the exchange of information and the beginning of discussion but it quickly goes into holier than thou, flaming, goading, and negativity with each trying to tell the other how right they are and how wrong they are. This is sad and happens all too often. It's roots lay in each saying that their way is the right way. Neither is showing any affection, courtesy or respect. Neither is acting deferentially, open minded or accepting.

------------------------
​

Deferential Posting:

Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: That's interesting. We don't do that. We do C & D on Shabbat. (notice the lack of putdowns and slurs and the courtesy at the beginning?)

Poster 1: I've only heard of doing C & D on Shabbat in passing would you tell me about it? (Notice the interest and not critisizing the other poster because he observes Shabbat differently?)

Poster 2: Well, C & D is ............. and we do it because..........I've heard of A & B but frankly, it didn't seem to fit. How do you incorporate A & B into Shabbat? I'm not sure that we will but I would like to hear about it. (The poster is being openminded and more importantly respectful of the other poster).

Poster 1: Doing A & B ............and helps us honor God's..............and we also believe that ................. I don't know if doing C & D is something that we would incorporate but it is something to think about. Thanks for sharing something this personal with me. (No criticism, openminded, shows affection)

Poster 2: I enjoy hearing about how different MJ's observe Shabbat and you've opened my eyes to a couple of things. I really appreciate it. Have you heard about the upcoming convention..................

Deferential or Positive Posting is not sacrificing one's beliefs. It is giving the other poster the benefit of the doubt. It is not necessarily adopting what the other believes or is trying to say but it is affirming the person's right to say it, not calling him wrong just because there is a difference in opinion, and treating each other as part of the Body. There is also a distinct lack of the destructive elements of posting that include things like flaming, goading, harassing, judgmentalism, and condemnation. Also, respect is key.

If I see any actually posts that show the above I'll copy and paste them in .

Great post! Let's take Shabbat for example. The only prohibition attached to it is rest and no work. Same with Lev 11.

 

[Chaplain David]

Great post! Let's take Shabbat for example. The only prohibition attached to it is rest and no work. Same with Lev 11.

I think you are trying to get my goat because I'm new in these parts. Thank you for the compliment.

 

[Laureate]

Great post! Let's take Shabbat for example. The only prohibition attached to it is rest and no work. Same with Lev 11.

Awesome example! An example of how to avoid an attack, or side step an arguement, or otherwise graciously bow out when lines have been crossed.

But equally important, we should learn how not to be offended, as was implied in the example given.

 

[Lulav]

I'd have to disagree with you Lulav on your bullet points. I didn't glean that at all.
Admin is not against debate - just cautious because of what we've seen happen in the past.

Well that's OK, it's just what stuck in my mind after reading two pages of posts. Maybe these comments had something to do with it?

No I agree with you completely that's why I would like to restrict debate not encourage it ...I'm for less not more

Let's talk about debate, some of you want it even after all we have seen here in its ability to take a fellowship forum down....I'm soooooo against it, what are the bennifits and what are the consequences ?

Let's make a list of pros and cons k?

I do like your recommendations about the forum breakdown. And I would add that all three should still have a way to keep a thread MJ only if so desired to keep safe havens from "outsiders" from other denoms.

Oh yes definitely!

 

[Chaplain David]

Awesome example! An example of how to avoid an attack, or side step an arguement, or otherwise graciously bow out when lines have been crossed.

But equally important, we should learn how not to be offended, as was implied in the example given.

If you're human, and I believe we all are, it is easy to get offended. But I think the easiest place to get offended hands down is in our groups on the internet. So we have to try extra hard not too.

Good points Sister Laureate

 

[Tishri1]

Thank you this is great!

​

Deferential Posting, you could also call it Positive Posting
​

I believe that one of the main things we have to take off the table first of all is who is right and who is wrong ---- or said in another way, who is doing it the right way and who is doing it the wrong way. Let me give a brief scenario.
It might seem rather simplistic but it is sometimes the simple things that are the most important. It will be illustrated by two posters who have stated they are Messianic Jews.

Problematic Posting:

Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: We don't do it that way, A & B should not even be a part of Shabbat. The real observance of Shabbat is C & D. Doing A & B on Shabbat is not what God has told us to do. How can you even think of such a thing?

Poster 1: Since when do you have a direct line to God? I think doing C & D on Shabbat is not only wrong but blasphemous. You aught to be ashamed.

Poster 2: You've proven what kind of MJ you are again and again. If you were really MJ you would do C & D and quit trying to dictate to the rest of us how holy you are and that we only need to do A & B.

Comment, in the above discussion you will notice the exchange of information and the beginning of discussion but it quickly goes into holier than thou, flaming, goading, and negativity with each trying to tell the other how right they are and how wrong they are. This is sad and happens all too often. It's roots lay in each saying that their way is the right way. Neither is showing any affection, courtesy or respect. Neither is acting deferentially, open minded or accepting.

------------------------
​

Deferential Posting:

Poster 1: On Shabbat we do A & B.
Poster 2: That's interesting. We don't do that. We do C & D on Shabbat. (notice the lack of putdowns and slurs and the courtesy at the beginning?)

Poster 1: I've only heard of doing C & D on Shabbat in passing would you tell me about it? (Notice the interest and not critisizing the other poster because he observes Shabbat differently?)

Poster 2: Well, C & D is ............. and we do it because..........I've heard of A & B but frankly, it didn't seem to fit. How do you incorporate A & B into Shabbat? I'm not sure that we will but I would like to hear about it. (The poster is being openminded and more importantly respectful of the other poster).

Poster 1: Doing A & B ............and helps us honor God's..............and we also believe that ................. I don't know if doing C & D is something that we would incorporate but it is something to think about. Thanks for sharing something this personal with me. (No criticism, openminded, shows affection)

Poster 2: I enjoy hearing about how different MJ's observe Shabbat and you've opened my eyes to a couple of things. I really appreciate it. Have you heard about the upcoming convention..................

Deferential or Positive Posting is not sacrificing one's beliefs. It is giving the other poster the benefit of the doubt. It is not necessarily adopting what the other believes or is trying to say but it is affirming the person's right to say it, not calling him wrong just because there is a difference in opinion, and treating each other as part of the Body. There is also a distinct lack of the destructive elements of posting that include things like flaming, goading, harassing, judgmentalism, and condemnation. Also, respect is key.

If I see any actually posts that show the above I'll copy and paste them in .

 

[Lulav]

What does everyone think?

Course you know we gotta keep the names about beliefs not people , so Torah Keepers would become .....All things Torah or Torah keeping, or something like that

I'm not sure I'm getting your understanding here Tish, the name should be about beliefs right, how is Torah Keepers not about our beliefs?

Baptists are Baptists because they believe in full immersion.

Lutherans are Lutherans because they believe in the teachings of Martin Luther