Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Messianic Jewboy]

I think I was trying to quote, by memory, post #91. I am guessing, by memoery, that I left out the word "that" in the middle of the sentense. I barely passed english, no kidding. Straight american english was my second language, no kidding.

Anyhow, as far as this forum goes, I have ceased to care. I came to faith with a bunch of Jews while a student at Stanford in 1958 without the manipulation of christians, but through some older Jewish men who were "quiet" Y'shua believers while we were all attending Kol Emeth(Conservative) in Palo Alto. Our elders discussed why we were advised not to affiliate with HCAA(which became MJAA in 1975)(UMJC wasn't around in 1958), the reason was HCAA just wanted to convert Jews and have them go to some Torah-mocking church, learn how to eat treif and Swiss on Rye, hold the Mayo, and proceed to throw 75% of the gross text of scripture away.

Therefore I grew up, in view of the Authority of Torah(all of it), believing that the events of Nicea were unnecessary and, since they added to scripture and were enforced by Rome and her harlot offspring, were therefore SIN. (Duet 4:2, Deut 12:32, Prov 30:5 and re-iterated other places). Our view of HCAA(MJAA later) and now UMJC were even less favorable.

So, that's the way it was. Big deal.

Y'shua/Jesus is L-RD!!!

Interesting story. Why was MJAA and UMJC less favorable?

 

[The Templar]

Sure it is, Torah and Tradition has been the foundation of the movement from way back, the fact that Jews don't have to give them up and that Yeshua and his Desciples can be seen encouraging these practices is very intrical to the MJ movement. Ask my Rabbi who has been in the movement since the 70's and myself since the 90's both the UMJC and the MJAA hold services and teach on many Torah topics

The teaching of Torah topics is not the same as manditory Torah observance.

 

[Henaynei]

MAN, this tiny screen DOES mess me up some times!
I made a large mistake here

The poster says they are not anti-Torah, but that their view of Scripture is the right one and in their view "the Law was not one away with." THAT is the essence of anti-Torah.

The poster says this teaching is truth because they learned it "in two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist." They also said there are "mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?" THIS is quintessentially that about which we have been trying to explain.

This poster insists they are Messianic, yet they teach and debate in nearly every thread that:
The Law/Torah has been done away with
That they are merely insisting on standing for the truth of scripture, the real truth
If others disagree they will be dealt with by G-d [/

The part I bolder HERE above is my error. Of course "the Law was not one away with" is NOT anti-Torah.

The only thing I can say in my defense of this error, other than the difficulty proofreading this, was given by the original poster themself. They Have been reported for anti-Torah posts and have posted many times in many threads that has been perceived as clearly anti-Torah observant, on any level.

However, I do sincerely apologize for this error in my quoting of their original post.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Lulav]

What I don't understand is if what we agree on here that torah observance is a big thing that separates us from the rest of Christianity and is peculiar to our group, then why are we only allowed to speak of Torah in a separate forum for it? Torah is what guides our whole lives, how can we not include it in everyday conversation?

If Torah observers are the majority here (I think Tal mentioned it was like 5 to1) then why is the majority regulated, basically as Ani put, to a ghetto?

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

If we seek out the "perfect" SoF from just the "right" MJ organization aren't we only seeking to exclude those to which we do not agree?
The big issue which causes much disturbance is that of "Torah Observance", how much we obey or how much we do not. I fear this is really a issue of personal hypocricy, sorry to use that term but it is what fits best. We are all guilty of personal hypocricy, all of us.
Torah teaches us 613 commands of God, how many do we obey on a daily basis? How many do we violate on a daily basis? What is our excuse? Do we really have any excuse?
Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
Is that not what Congregational Leader Steve Shermett said in his most accurate video lesson? Watch it HERE
Unity is what we need, not the seeking of better ways to establish stronger divisions within the Body of Yeshua.
I think the MJAA SoF aloYne is a good standard and if folks wish to post about Torah observance do it in the sub-forum set up for that.
Leave the main MJ board for general fellowship and edification.

Exactly what I've been trying to say. I think that's the video I posted. To me in reality Messianic Judaism is Judaism and/or Christianity but biblical Judaism or biblical Christianity.

 

[anisavta]

I think the MJAA SoF alone is a good standard and if folks wish to post about Torah observance do it in the sub-forum set up for that.
Leave the main MJ board for general fellowship and edification.

And there we have the problem. Torah observance to some is included in daily life, in edification and fellowship. You can't tell those who observe Torah, "You can only talk about it in the subforum while the rest of us run free fellowshipping and edifying each other in the general MJ forum".

 

[Henaynei]

Discussing Torah observance IS edification in the MJ context.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[Jerushabelle]

MAN, this tiny screen DOES mess me up some times!
I made a large mistake here

The poster says they are not anti-Torah, but that their view of Scripture is the right one and in their view "the Law was not one away with." THAT is the essence of anti-Torah.

The poster says this teaching is truth because they learned it "in two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist." They also said there are "mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?" THIS is quintessentially that about which we have been trying to explain.

This poster insists they are Messianic, yet they teach and debate in nearly every thread that:
The Law/Torah has been done away with
That they are merely insisting on standing for the truth of scripture, the real truth
If others disagree they will be dealt with by G-d [/

The part I bolder HERE above is my error. Of course "the Law was not one away with" is NOT anti-Torah.

The only thing I can say in my defense of this error, other than the difficulty proofreading this, was given by the original poster themself. They Have been reported for anti-Torah posts and have posted many times in many threads that has been perceived as clearly anti-Torah observant, on any level.

However, I do sincerely apologize for this error in my quoting of their original post.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Excuse me? How is believing that the Law was NOT done away with, the essence of anti-Torah?

Brother Talmidim was referring to a post I made to his profile visitor message board wherein I stated " Anyone who reads Matthew 5 understands that as long as heaven and earth last, not the least point nor the smallest detail of the Law will be done away with." How is that the essence of anti-Torah?

My posts here have not been anti-Torah, period! And if you don't think that God is going to deal with folks for disagreeing with Him, what is the point of looking to Torah at all for anything?

 

[The Templar]

Not really. All that would do is relegate those who observe Torah more diligently to a ghetto of sorts. And as far as I know no one in our forum demands "mandatory Torah observance".

So it's okay to relegate others to a ghetto???

Friction is not necessarily wrong. Iron sharpens iron.

I do not see this friction sharpening anything but the tools of hate, bigotry and separation.

Our issue as I see it is the disrespect we've experienced as Messianic Jews and Gentiles for not stepping in line with general Christian doctrine sometimes sadly disguised by those using the Torah scroll icon as their shield.

Again, I see no one telling anyone they need to be less Jewish and more Christian. No one.
I do not see any disrespect, none.
I only see believers with differing views, nothing more.
I have watched this forum for some time and can honestly say I have not witnessed anyone tell the others here they need to be less Jewish or less Torah observant. What I have witnessed is whenever someone with a different view steps in, they get beaten to a pulp until they leave. And many here cheering their departure claiming they were not Messianic!
Who are we to judge another?
There are many different schools within MJ, why not give the respect to all that we expect for ourselves?
Have we not been taught by Yeshua to do for others as we would have them do for us?
Nice closing comment, a fine example of a judgmental insult.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

If we seek out the "perfect" SoF from just the "right" MJ organization aren't we only seeking to exclude those to which we do not agree?

The big issue which causes much disturbance is that of "Torah Observance", how much we obey or how much we do not. I fear this is really a issue of personal hypocricy, sorry to use that term but it is what fits best. We are all guilty of personal hypocricy, all of us.

Torah teaches us 613 commands of God, how many do we obey on a daily basis? How many do we violate on a daily basis? What is our excuse? Do we really have any excuse?

Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
Is that not what Congregational Leader Steve Shermett said in his most accurate video lesson? Watch it HERE


Unity is what we need, not the seeking of better ways to establish stronger divisions within the Body of Yeshua.

I think the MJAA SoF alone is a good standard and if folks wish to post about Torah observance do it in the sub-forum set up for that.
Leave the main MJ board for general fellowship and edification.

Good word

Part of me was wondering the same thing when it came to following some of the discussions over the years...and seeing where most (if not all) people claiming to be Torah Observant have often not been able to address areas where TOrah is not kept in their lives---and the things mentioned were "Well, what matters is that at least I'm striving"...yet what was said previously was that the Lord desires perfection/seeing not one of His laws either taken away from or added to. For people saying there's no one here who has ever come close to keeping all of the Law and that all have areas where they may not do it like in the OT----tithing being one of the greatest examples as well as the issues of stoning of others/those who are rebellious and the laws on skin disease being another as well as many others----it has been interesting to see how often that is treated as if one does not love the Torah.

Everyone here is striving to do what they feel convicted on with TORAH and honor the Lord--and no one here really has the right to say of another that their level of observance is not enough since no one here has ever been concerned with fully keeping all of it when it comes to all having differing levels of comfortability.

 

[Tishri1]

Didn't know you reached out the patients, but that's really cool. At the church I grew up in, they were trying to find ways to get more involved doing that and one of my elders does that often when he goes/prays for the healing of patients.

Cool to see what you're doing in action...

Interestingly enough, what you noted about working in hospitals/sharing that actually goes with some of the suggestions others have made when it comes to what you asked on. For many have noted how much of a pity it can be that others can literally go to war with every/any individual not in agreement with their own ideology of Observance---and yet when it comes to simple fellowship or encouragement in things one is doing to impact others, there's silence. Other MJish individuals have suggested doing more fellowship threads on the main forum for others wishing to find common ground/things all have in common....or be able to talk on things that all can agree with, if all claim to be brothers/sisters in Christ. What often seems to happen is a good degree of polarization where others vehemently against another will not even try to find agreement on anything, even if someone says they happen to like art...but for other MJish members who are about fellowship/interaction on things of everyday life, it's a blast. Personally, I sought to do a couple of these kinds of threads on differing occassions..one of which dealt with things like Comics (seen here ), another focused upon sharing the Messianic fellowships members go to ( seen here ), another on Pirates of Jewish background ( here ) while another on dancing during worship services and music others like ( here and Here /h ) and many others. Other MJish members have done threads on things like Art/seeing God's creation, such as the thread entitled God is an awesome artist ....and others such as Music of Ralph Vaughan-Williams and Great Messianic Music /here among many others.

As other Messianics have noted, it's often hard to keep fellowship threads going since many do not wish to fellowship as much as they wish to argue

Awesome post EZ I think this is a perfect way to start getting to know each other in a positive way!

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[aniello]

Interesting story. Why was MJAA and UMJC less favorable?

As to UMJC I screwed up the sentence. In 1958 UMJC did not exist.

HCAA(later called MJAA in 1975) advocated that we Jews join evangelical protestant churches. We tried(our group) Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, AoG, Episcopal, Presbyterian, that's all that come to memory now. Gee, it was 54 years ago. These churches, when they found out we were Jews(oh shudder/gasp) all essentially told us, rather emphatically, to lose "the Jew crap" to quote by memory one very red faced Baptist preacher who I think wanted to beat the cr--(I mean stuffing) out of us.

In view of Duet 4:2 and I John 3:4:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. ,

how could we have viewed their doctrine(s) other than SIN?

Seems clear enough.

 

[The Templar]

And there we have the problem. Torah observance to some is included in daily life, in edification and fellowship. You can't tell those who observe Torah, "You can only talk about it in the subforum while the rest of us run free fellowshipping and edifying each other in the general MJ forum".

But we can demand others from the other MJ Congrgations to stay silent because they are not Torah Observant enough?
Fellowship and edification can, and should, be enjoyed without being judged for the level of Torah observance.
Many here are far too ready to judge who is and who is not Messianic.
It is not our place to judge anothers servant, when one puts on the MJ scroll or the Cross of Christ they are announcing they are the servants of Yeshua. Only Yeshua can judge His servants.

 

[Jerushabelle]

And there we have the problem. Torah observance to some is included in daily life, in edification and fellowship. You can't tell those who observe Torah, "You can only talk about it in the subforum while the rest of us run free fellowshipping and edifying each other in the general MJ forum".

I don't understand this attitude Sister Anisavta. I watched while you all agreed with Sister Tishri to set up and name that subforum. Now you don't want it? Well, okay I guess but then don't get upset when someone posts their faith expression in MJ to the main forum and it disagrees with you. I can understand someone's desire to observe the dietary laws. I can admire their conviction to do so while not doing so myself. But then, I expect the same sort of respect in regard to my own conviction and expression within MJ.

 

[Lulav]

Also it should be pointed out the sub forum for those who feel they are "more Torah Observant", it's called "Everything Torah". Posting messages of manditory Torah observance in that forum would eliminate much of the friction between camps in the first place.

I think everyone here is aware of that. I don't think there are any mandatory Torah observance thread in either that forum or the main one.

If we seek out the "perfect" SoF from just the "right" MJ organization aren't we only seeking to exclude those to which we do not agree?
The big issue which causes much disturbance is that of "Torah Observance", how much we obey or how much we do not. I fear this is really a issue of personal hypocricy, sorry to use that term but it is what fits best. We are all guilty of personal hypocricy, all of us.
Torah teaches us 613 commands of God, how many do we obey on a daily basis? How many do we violate on a daily basis? What is our excuse? Do we really have any excuse?
Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
Is that not what Congregational Leader Steve Shermett said in his most accurate video lesson? Watch it HERE
Unity is what we need, not the seeking of better ways to establish stronger divisions within the Body of Yeshua.
I think the MJAA SoF alone is a good standard and if folks wish to post about Torah observance do it in the sub-forum set up for that.
Leave the main MJ board for general fellowship and edification.

A few questions here.

1. Why does our SoF have to come from an MJ organization? We are not all part of them.
2. The biggest part of the problems of late is not about how much or how little someone keeps Torah, but actually who it is for and who should and who shouldn't.
3. Never heard of personal hypocrisy, it's rather and oxymoron is it not. We do not tell ourselves we obey something or keep a commandment we don't, unless some of us are bi-polar or schizophrenic and I doubt that's the case.
4. G-d gave Israel 613 Mitzvot, for a community. No one person can obey them all as they are not for one person. Even Yeshua did not because he could not obey them all. This is something that many Christians don't understand and in ignorance throw this up at us.

Which brings me to the question, How long have you considered yourself Messianic? You have been posting using the preps of 'us' and 'we' when I've never seen you post in here before and my only knowledge of you is from a warning you gave me that really appears to show you not understanding how a Jew should be presented with who Yeshua is. Also no one that is truly a Messianic, (which would mean for one big thing you are a friend to Jews and love the Jewish people) would call themselves a Templar. Most here know the history of the Templars and how Jews they slaughtered on their way to the Holy Land. So it just surprises me that you are now flying the Torah scrolls when a whole part of this debate is about who is and who isn't.

And these are accusations against us

Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
this is really a issue of personal hypocricy


Also the link you posted is from a Messianic from an organization that does not believe we are required to keep Torah, stating that Messiah fulfilled it.

 

[Lulav]

Discussing Torah observance IS edification in the MJ context.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

 

[The Templar]

Discussing Torah observance IS edification in the MJ context.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Normally, I would agree.
However, here I have witnessed it used as a club to beat down those we don't like.
That is a very poor way to teach.

You WILL agree with me!

 

[Tishri1]

Not certain if you're aware of it--but over the past couple of months, Sister Tishri has been trying to lead alot of change as it concerns the main forum this thread/many others developed in. Her heart was to have the main forum being solely a place for fellowship while debates were to really be taking place in the forums for others of certain persuasions.

Sadly, no one has really honored her (or the staff helping) in adhering to what she desired when it came to asking for serious debates to be taken away to certain forums...be it the one called All Things Torah or the other forum called Bridge Builders. What has often happened is that people from both sides have persisted in coming after one another in the main forum and then debating about who is or isn't allowed to be in the forum rather than going with what the rules actually say about the kind of content that the MAIN Forum allows. Honoring Tishri in what she has worked hard for would be something I think would go a long way in keeping things running...

In regards to the previous threads for reference showing where she has worked hard:


[*] subforum names(Theology / belief related names)
[*]MJ only should we restrict controversial topics here to keep the peace
[*]3 month Test- using the subforums for each group of MJs and the main forum for fellow


For more, one can also go to #132 , #175 /#169. There seems to be a determination for others to get involved in threads that may not have things in line with their mindsets..and in many ways, it seems that the real issue is one of not knowing how to interact when in the home or neighborhood of another. If there's going to be insistence in going into places that one knows in advance will bring sharp disagreement, one can learn how to go about disagreeing agreeably...or at least learning how to listen/move on. For many, the desire is for others to HAVE to hear what they want others to agree with so it may be difficult to have things one way...

Thanks for the support EZ, I kinda dropped the ball on that myself and for that I'm sorry, for a while I was not able to be here as much as I would have liked to be here as I share one lap top with five people two of which are teens.... then I was blessed to win a contest at work and won an IPAD2!!!!!. I can help us thru that transition now better, as long as everyone is still willing to try it out.....3 mos is all it will take to test run this new look in MJ

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[Jerushabelle]

As to UMJC I screwed up the sentence. In 1958 UMJC did not exist.

HCAA(later called MJAA in 1975) advocated that we Jews join evangelical protestant churches. We tried(our group) Baptist, Lutheran, Methodist, AoG, Episcopal, Presbyterian, that's all that come to memory now. Gee, it was 54 years ago. These churches, when they found out we were Jews(oh shudder/gasp) all essentially told us, rather emphatically, to lose "the Jew crap" to quote by memory one very red faced Baptist preacher who I think wanted to beat the cr--(I mean stuffing) out of us.

In view of Duet 4:2 and I John 3:4:

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. ,

how could we have viewed their doctrine(s) other than SIN?

Seems clear enough.

I'm sorry you experienced that but you know, I experienced the same thing in reverse in two very high profile Messianic synagogues. I can't speak to the poor behavior of fellow Christians. Only God can. I can show you that I care for you as a Brother in the Body. I'm responsible for my actions under God and those who mistreated you will be held responsible for their actions. Would it interest you to know that I was thrown out of the very Methodist church I attended for ten years because of my Messianic beliefs? Big deal, there will be repercussions so what do I have to worry about? God is in control. This is the same attitude of my friend who is Messianic and extremely Torah observant. Because there is no MJ congregation near her, she attends a Charismatic church and has for many years. The elders of that church have been at her doorstep multiple times in an effort to understand her Messianic faith expression. They have come close a time or two, she reported recently to me, to telling her she needed to vamoos but so far they are accepting her Scriptural argument for her faith expression in MJ and that, IMHO, is as it should be. Those elders were there because of the legalistic attitudes of members of the church who complained to the elders. That sort of nastiness is a bad witness to the Lord.

 

[The Templar]

I think everyone here is aware of that. I don't think there are any mandatory Torah observance thread in either that forum or the main one.

A few questions here.

Why does our SoF have to come from an MJ organization? We are not all part of them.

Then petition the staff to change the SoP.

The biggest part of the problems of late is not about how much or how little someone keeps Torah, but actually who it is for and who should and who shouldn't.

Is this not one in the same issue?

Never heard of personal hypocrisy, it's rather and oxymoron is it not. We do not tell ourselves we obey something or keep a commandment we don't, unless some of us are bi-polar or schizophrenic and I doubt that's the case.

No, the term addresses the level of hypocricy we are willing to live within. And yes, many people do lie to themselves.

G-d gave Israel 613 Mitzvot, for a community. No one person can obey them all as they are not for one person. Even Yeshua did not because he could not obey them all. This is something that many Christians don't understand and in ignorance throw this up at us.

Excuse me? Yeshua lived a perfect sin free life, that is recorded in Scripture. Also what of Enoch, Mordecai, Job or John the Baptizer? The lack of understanding here is that man is unwilling, not unable to obey the Law as it pertains to each person.
How is your personal record of obedience going?
Long before one judges another they need to make sure their house is in order,
then they can remove the log from their own eye to see clearly the speck in anothers.

Which brings me to the question, How long have you considered yourself Messianic?

Hmm, bait for yet another "I'm more Messianic than you" attack?

You have been posting using the preps of 'us' and 'we' when I've never seen you post in here before and my only knowledge of you is from a warning you gave me that really appears to show you not understanding how a Jew should be presented with who Yeshua is.

"I" did not give you a warning, you earned it per the consensus of the Mod Staff. Whose actions are not in question here.

Also no one that is truly a Messianic, (which would mean for one big thing you are a friend to Jews and love the Jewish people) would call themselves a Templar. Most here know the history of the Templars and how Jews they slaughtered on their way to the Holy Land. So it just surprises me that you are now flying the Torah scrolls when a whole part of this debate is about who is and who isn't.

There seems to be a lack of historical data here...
The Templar Knight fought for the protection of Jerusalem and the Jewish People, the enemy they fought was the Moors, Islam. Islam was murdering Jews and those traveling to see the Holy Land.
Again, we need to be mindful of the difference between being a "Crusader" and being a "Templar", they are quite different. However there exists much negative press surrounding the Templars, that which was cooked up by Kings and Popes because the Templars "bent their knee to no one but God". In that I find honor, sorry if that offends.

And these are accusations against us

Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
this is really a issue of personal hypocricy


Also the link you posted is from a Messianic from an organization that does not believe we are required to keep Torah, stating that Messiah fulfilled it.

This only stands to prove my point, this was not an accustation on my part. It is fact. The link provided is a Messianic Congregation is it not? Again, my point is proved! This Congregation does not please some so they will rail against it all the while demanding respect from others. Interesting.
Respect, you get that which you give.