Staff and Member discussion thread.

[Tishri1]

Yes, the word legalism is offensive. It restricts the freedom all Christians have in Jesus/Yeshua. The act is offensive and it plagues ALL corners of Christianity. Let me make it perfectly clear that I'm not talking about one's desire to be obedient to God's commands as they are convicted. I'm talking about the demand that all be uniformly obedient without allowing for the personal convictions occurring in one's relationship with God.

I would never say, "I respect your level of Torah Observance and thank you for your opinion on the matter, I don't want to seem anti Torah in here being I'm not as observant as you all so I will leave you all to your discussion here,..." I might be more inclined to say, "I'll respect your level of Torah observance if you respect mine which by no means is anti-Torah." And no, I certainly am not going to leave the conversation simply because I don't see eye to eye with the folks involved in it or because they don't see eye to eye with me. Heaven knows I might learn something from them or they might learn something from me!

Additionally, I will stand up for my right to post my opinion while obeying CF community wide rules and respecting congregational S'soF or SoP. This isn't shul, this isn't a congregation. This is a forum just like every other forum here at CF. I care about the witness I put forth and I care about whether people see Yeshua in my life and words. I'm fairly certain I have proven that here at CF.

Well you may have to avoid topics to which you disagree then as you cannot disrupt the harmony of the forum by hijacking every thread to post your opposing opinion. This is the congregational area, this is not the debate forums area(GT)

These forums are safe havens for folks who have the same beliefs systems, and where those beliefs are mainstream . Torah observance is mainstream for the MJ community world wide so those who have less observance need to understand or develop understanding for those who follow Torah more. There are just as many scriptures about grace as there are about obedience, in MJ there is more of a leaning toward obedience, it's cultural as well as part of their service, so if you come in with less obedience don't feel like you have to change, but you do need to be aware that more folks around you will be observing Torah more than you and please respect that and don't challenge them in their discussion threads.

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

 

[Chaplain David]

Right, so you are a Minister or Pastor, serving in a hospital as a Chaplain. If you have been ordained in the Baptist Church then I would expect you to hold either of those titles. Even if you do not have a pastorate in which to serve it does not mean you are not a Minister or Pastor because that is what you do - you minister to, or pastor, the patients and staff.

That is why I could not understand your use of the distinction in titles, unless you are a Lay Chaplain.

My title is Reverend. But it doesn't matter. What matters is what we do, all of us. And in this forum, it really matters that we come to better agreement, get rid of wreckage of the past, and really turn over some new leaves so it will not just be good but really thrive. And all of that, we as staff can help initiate, monitor etc., but it is up to the members. Ultimately it is the members who make or break a forum. It is just like a family. We are a family. Shalom.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Ah shoot y'all dun found a picher of my kin. We'se dressed up fur the okashun.

Oh no no, Sister, that wasn't a picture of your kin but rather mine....mine who done kilt my Maw & Paw and left me to deal with the pain of it. Make no mistake, those ugly folk are mine! I was being quite serious when I stated I was hoping for more than family.

 

[Yahudim]

You have to know I'm not mad and I do understand the strong feelings in here, that's why I think we should have a few points of understanding in here so we can all get along. We know that splitting forums up has never been the answer, as every time we attempt to segregate our group we kill it's existence. What works is when folks try to accept each others individuality knowing that our own is respected too. We aren't here to preach to the choir, that's boring and that is the result of segregation...But we are not here to wrestle with our enemies all day either, we need to know our threads wont be high jacked into debate and grounded and locked every time we present a topic that is controversial.

Fact is we have to protect the observance of Torah in MJ
But we also have to protect the different levels of observance and not liable folks as not being MJ if they have very little observance. Christian isn't a dirty word, and neither is grace , but the way it's used by creating a divisive label for folks who don't look exactly the way we expect an MJ to look like, it becomes offensive. We need to respect folks who are here despite how observant they are.

What can we do to spread shalom in here?

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

Thanks Tish, I hope you know I wasn't trying to make you mad. But again, and I hope I am not trying your patience, I have concerns and I am a little confused about your answer. Not about finding a way to bring shalom to this faith group. That is my fondest wish. But about what I bolded above.

The Roman Catholics have their forum. That boundary is based on doctrine. So too the Pentecostals, the Baptists, etc. I understand that they are denominational forums. But then there are the Faith Groups such as Apostolic Churches , Bridge Builders - Moderate Christians, Charismatic Catholic Renewal, Conservative Christians, Fundamentalist Christians, The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics, No Creed But Christ - Restoration Movement, Progressive/Moderate Adventists, Semper Reformanda - Reformed, Spirit-Filled / Charismatic, Traditional Adventists, etc. Most of these break along doctrinal boundaries too. So why would the Torah observant Messianics die if separated by forum boundary from those that believe otherwise? I don't get it. Seems to me that a whole lot of anguish would vaporize instantly. Poof! Instant Shalom!

 

[Chaplain David]

Thanks Tish, I hope you know I wasn't trying to make you mad. But again, and I hope I am not trying your patience, I have concerns and I am a little confused about your answer. Not about finding a way to bring shalom to this faith group. That is my fondest wish. But about what I bolded above.

The Roman Catholics have their forum. That boundary is based on doctrine. So too the Pentecostals, the Baptists, etc. I understand that they are denominational forums. But then there are the Faith Groups such as Apostolic Churches , Bridge Builders - Moderate Christians, Charismatic Catholic Renewal, Conservative Christians, Fundamentalist Christians, The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics, No Creed But Christ - Restoration Movement, Progressive/Moderate Adventists, Semper Reformanda - Reformed, Spirit-Filled / Charismatic, Traditional Adventists, etc. Most of these break along doctrinal boundaries too. So why would the Torah observant Messianics die if separated by forum boundary from those that believe otherwise? I don't get it. Seems to me that a whole lot of anguish would vaporize instantly. Poof! Instant Shalom!

Dear Brother Talmidim,

Our sister Tishri loves you just as I do. We care a great deal for all of you. We may disagree in method but not in the outcome we want for all. Please, keep speaking your mind and heart. We are listening and learning as we always do. Sometimes things do not seem to be apparent just from looking at them from a "post on the forum perspective," but they are thought about and talked about in our relevant staff circles. Things will work out.

God bless you this day and peace be with you and yours.

David

PS I know the emoticon below is kind of strange, but it is how we look at all of us. A family, yes with varying opinions but as a family and together.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Well you may have to avoid topics to which you disagree then as you cannot disrupt the harmony of the forum by hijacking every thread to post your opposing opinion. This is the congregational area, this is not the debate forums area(GT)

These forums are safe havens for folks who have the same beliefs systems, and where those beliefs are mainstream . Torah observance is mainstream for the MJ community world wide so those who have less observance need to understand or develop understanding for those who follow Torah more. There are just as many scriptures about grace as there are about obedience, in MJ there is more of a leaning toward obedience, it's cultural as well as part of their service, so if you come in with less obedience don't feel like you have to change, but you do need to be aware that more folks around you will be observing Torah more than you and please respect that and don't challenge them in their discussion threads.

Sent from my iPad using CF God Bless You

Please cease speaking (posting) to me as though I'm not Messianic. I am quite aware of the nuances of MJ as well as the teachings. I do not cast doubt on anyone's faith expression and I would appreciate the same in return. Respect is a two way street. I think you should perhaps view that video that was posted to this thread. It's excellent in that it points out the primary differences within "mainstream" MJ as they pertain to Torah observance. I'm not "coming in" with anything out of the ordinary anymore than Sister Qnts2 came in with her understanding of MJ. Debate is an attribute of every forum here at CF. I'm quite capable of debating with an attitude of respect for the SoP and love for my Brothers and Sisters as I have proven. Safe haven is within the SoP, not in addition to the SoP. The SoP allows for the many variations within Messianism as do I. You created a subforum for the ones "leaning more toward obedience" (talk about offensive word usage) but the fact is the more Torah observant have no desire to use it which I suppose is their decision but it shouldn't come as a shock that those who have differing opinions will post those opinions as those opinions are no less valid than theirs.

 

[Yahudim]

Dear Brother Talmidim,

Our sister Tishri loves you just as I do. We may disagree in method but not in the outcome we want for all. Please, keep speaking your mind and heart. We are listening and learning as we always do. Sometimes things do not seem to be apparent just from looking at them from a "post on the forum perspective," but they are thought about and talked about in our relevant staff circles. Things will work out.

God bless you this day and peace be with you and yours.

David

PS I know the emoticon below is kind of strange, but it is how we look at all of us. A family, yes with varying opinions but as a family and together.

I know. There are a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that we don't know about. I'm sure that they all include a great deal of time and effort and I am grateful. Thank you for your words of encouragement and blessings. We are all still looking for answers and a little peace. I suppose that we aren't that far apart.

I can identify with your situation in my own small way. We fellowship in our apartment. Attendance varies from dozens to just us. Lately we have been alone. My ministry was in elder care for several years. It has migrated over time to the streets. We feed and clothe the homeless as we can afford. However, most of our spare time these days is spent taking care of our own. My wife's little sister is in need of a liver transplant. That is where most of our time and money goes. My elder brother went in for his 8th stint. The blockages almost got him this time. But it is the depression and bouts of extreme forgetfulness that has us the most concerned. He is fiercely independent and willful, but losing the faculties he needs to maintain an independent lifestyle. We can only do what we are called to do and the rest resides with our Elohim. So be it.

I made the mistake of praying for patience once. Life has never been the same.

Thanks again,
Phillip

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Please cease speaking (posting) to me as though I'm not Messianic. I am quite aware of the nuances of MJ as well as the teachings. I do not cast doubt on anyone's faith expression and I would appreciate the same in return. Respect is a two way street. I think you should perhaps view that video that was posted to this thread. It's excellent in that it points out the primary differences within "mainstream" MJ as they pertain to Torah observance. I'm not "coming in" with anything out of the ordinary anymore than Sister Qnts2 came in with her understanding of MJ. Debate is an attribute of every forum here at CF. I'm quite capable of debating with an attitude of respect for the SoP and love for my Brothers and Sisters as I have proven. Safe haven is within the SoP, not in addition to the SoP. The SoP allows for the many variations within Messianism as do I. You created a subforum for the ones "leaning more toward obedience" (talk about offensive word usage) but the fact is the more Torah observant have no desire to use it which I suppose is their decision but it shouldn't come as a shock that those who have differing opinions will post those opinions as those opinions are no less valid than theirs.

Yes that video was an age opener for me. You can also see the differences in all camps of believers.

Here is the link again... Definately pertains to tid discussion.

Sermon - The Law of Moses

 

[anisavta]

Now as to my remark to the specific person(singular) I was addressing which was, as best as I can recall, as I am very computer challenged and age is hampering my eyesight somewhat: "I can honestly and transparently say I don't trust you." That was addressed specifically and singularly to the specific person whose post I quoted.

Aniello - I just scrolled back to your original post and I find no quote.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Hi Jerushabelle,

What you have said here concerns me.

Yes it concerns you and others.

And you found that demand here?

Pretty much.

We demand that all be uniformly obedient? Really?

Pretty much and an intolerance of anyone who doesn't believe exactly as the "majority".

We don't allow for personal convictions either and so you are going to proclaim your 'freedom in Christ' and 'fix' us?

No, I'm proclaiming Scripture and what you do with it is between you and God.

I respect that you want to stand up for your rights and that you care about your witness. But you are very mistaken if you think that this forum is like every other forum here at CF. Because there is a major departure from mainstream Christian doctrine that I happen to know is one with which you disagree. It is also one that makes us a consistent target of mainstream Christian believers 'contending for their faith'. We have enough contention here.

Thank you but you also know that I was reported for posting anti-Torah comments here and I have never posted against Torah. I have only ever stood up for what is in Scripture and that is what I will continue to do. And what mainstream Christian doctrine is it that you know I disagree with...that the Law has been done away with? Would you like to know where I learned that the Law was not done away with?...in two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist. That's because I attended Scripture adhering and believing churches and there are plenty of them out there. Are there mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?

You say you are not anti-Torah, but that is difficult for some of us to believe. You have aligned yourself with someone that hardly argues anything else, especially as it applies to Gentiles.

I have tried to align myself with all here Brother Talmidim and gotten my rear end nigh booted for it. You are speaking of Sister Qnts2, why dance around it, life's too short. She was kind to me when very few here would be and I have no clue as to whether we agree on all fronts of MJ. We probably do have differences but I'll cozy up to anyone who shares the fruit of the Spirit with me and work harder to maintain the commonality that exists in Yeshua. That being said, I've always been a sucker for the underdog! As to whether you believe I am anti-Torah...well, that's your problem. The fact that you are willing to toss a Brother or Sister under the proverbial bus on account of your doubts is also your problem and it's a serious one. I am, however, more than willing to agree to disagree and maintain with all here a Christian attitude. Yes, I know the word "Christian" rankles you but you just need to get over it!

Much has been made of the guidelines of the MJAA, a Christian mission established to evangelize the Jews and whose basic format hasn't changed perceptibly in 40 years. But the MJ movement has changed and that is what is reflected in this forum. Unfortunately, there are members here that have not changed with the movement. There are a number of members in this forum that have joined on the merits of their pedigree rather than their doctrinal beliefs. Only a few years back they called themselves Hebrew Christians, an apt moniker because they were of Hebraic linage and mainstream Christian doctrine. They, like you, claim not to be anti-Torah. And one might think to believe them because of their background. But their beliefs betray their real motives. I see them, at worst as disingenuous, nothing less than Christian missionaries, trying to bring us poor legalistic Messianics back into the fold, back into the 'church' we left, and at best, as misguided Jew and Gentile separatists (as Gentiles don't get to follow Torah in their view), but regardless of motivation, they are nonetheless just as disruptive.

If you have left the "Church" Brother Talmidim, I have no idea why you are here at all because MJ is part of the "Church". The commission of Yeshua is to do all that we can to put forth a witness to the Lord that is honoring of Him and all that He has taught us in Scripture and by Ruach HaKodesh. That should be our focus and we should leave to God the judgment of those doing wrong.

I personally cannot tell you how many times I have heard the term 'freedom in Christ' used to annul His lawful commands, used to derail our threads, used like a weapon with which to beat us poor misinformed Messianics over the head. Your use of the term 'legalism' demonstrates your lack of understanding and sensitivity. You will therefore understand if I am a bit skeptical of your new-found Messianic allegiance.

Anyone can use and abuse Scripture Brother Talmidim. I'm sorry you don't like the use of the term "legalism" but it in no way demonstrates a lack of understanding or sensitivity on my part toward my Brothers and Sisters in MJ or Christianity at large but rather discernment in identifying anything that defies Spiritual connection and God's truth. Discernment can be honed but it is also a gift of Ruach HaKodesh and I use my gift as often as He intends.

Messianics have more in common with Christians than we have differences with them. But the difference we have , in our perspective, are profound and not ones that we wish to debate (the ones that we get so TIRED of having to debate). What we do often debate is a matter of how best to obey Torah, to what degree it applies in different circumstances and how it affects our understanding of 'New Testament' scriptures; a distinction that is often lost on people that still cling to the 'freedom' you proclaim. We too have freedom In Messiah.

And it's fine to debate the different aspects of Torah, just not demand that all be as Torah observant as you. You need to cease the mantra that Messianics are not Christians. It's persecutive, it's untrue and it's more divisive than any forum debate could ever prove to be. The freedom I proclaim is the same freedom that you have because Messiach is the same for all Christians.

Most us us see freedom IN obedience to Torah and as being FROM obedience to the politically convenient ordinances of the leaders of Ancient Judea; those ordinances and traditions that have little or nothing to do with Torah obedience. We also find freedom from the politically motivated and purposeful scriptural misinterpretations of Ancient Rome that have found their way into almost every nook and cranny of modern Christian thought. So again, please forgive me if I offend. But what you are saying is not something new to us. It is instead, the same old song and dance.

Peace,

Perhaps you should, at some point in the future, list those of the 613 Laws you successfully obey on a daily basis? But if you break only one, you are guilty of having broken them all.

You and others here criticized me for my lack of desire to look to Talmud for anything and for being sola Scriptura. But accepting what Yeshua did for me on the cross and seeking God's truth in Scripture as opposed to the so-called "wisdom of the sages" is my way of being free from the ordinances of the leaders of ancient Judea and from ancient Rome.

I take no offense at anything you have posted. I simply refute it.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes that video was an age opener for me. You can also see the differences in all camps of believers.

Here is the link again... Definately pertains to tid discussion.

Sermon - The Law of Moses

Definately a video work having for a sticky and heads up in line with the SOP

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Again the issue is there is no standard. And everyone here reflects the Messianic Judaism they are either part of or want Messianic Judaism to be.

If MJAA is the standard then in regards to being Torah positive then I would try to find another standard from another Messianic organization if you want to exemplify Torah positiveness and focus.

 

[The Templar]

Every thread doesn't need to be replied to, my advice is to avoid threads that you don't agree with

Also it should be pointed out the sub forum for those who feel they are "more Torah Observant", it's called "Everything Torah". Posting messages of manditory Torah observance in that forum would eliminate much of the friction between camps in the first place.

 

[aniello]

Aniello - I just scrolled back to your original post and I find no quote.

I think I was trying to quote, by memory, post #91. I am guessing, by memoery, that I left out the word "that" in the middle of the sentense. I barely passed english, no kidding. Straight american english was my second language, no kidding.

Anyhow, as far as this forum goes, I have ceased to care. I came to faith with a bunch of Jews while a student at Stanford in 1958 without the manipulation of christians, but through some older Jewish men who were "quiet" Y'shua believers while we were all attending Kol Emeth(Conservative) in Palo Alto. Our elders discussed why we were advised not to affiliate with HCAA(which became MJAA in 1975)(UMJC wasn't around in 1958), the reason was HCAA just wanted to convert Jews and have them go to some Torah-mocking church, learn how to eat treif and Swiss on Rye, hold the Mayo, and proceed to throw 75% of the gross text of scripture away.

Therefore I grew up, in view of the Authority of Torah(all of it), believing that the events of Nicea were unnecessary and, since they added to scripture and were enforced by Rome and her harlot offspring, were therefore SIN. (Duet 4:2, Deut 12:32, Prov 30:5 and re-iterated other places). Our view of HCAA(MJAA later) and now UMJC were even less favorable.

So, that's the way it was. Big deal.

Y'shua/Jesus is L-RD!!!

 

[Henaynei]

No, I'm proclaiming Scripture and what you do with it is between you and God.

Thank you but you also know that I was reported for posting anti-Torah comments here and I have never posted against Torah. I have only ever stood up for what is in Scripture and that is what I will continue to do. And what mainstream Christian doctrine is it that you know I disagree with...that the Law has been done away with? Would you like to know where I learned that the Law was not done away with?...in two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist. That's because I attended Scripture adhering and believing churches and there are plenty of them out there. Are there mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?

I have tried to align myself with all here Brother Talmidim and gotten my rear end nigh booted for it. You are speaking of Sister Qnts2, why dance around it, life's too short. She was kind to me when very few here would be and I have no clue as to whether we agree on all fronts of MJ. We probably do have differences but I'll cozy up to anyone who shares the fruit of the Spirit with me and work harder to maintain the commonality that exists in Yeshua. That being said, I've always been a sucker for the underdog! As to whether you believe I am anti-Torah...well, that's your problem. The fact that you are willing to toss a Brother or Sister under the proverbial bus on account of your doubts is also your problem and it's a serious one. I am, however, more than willing to agree to disagree and maintain with all here a Christian attitude. Yes, I know the word "Christian" rankles you but you just need to get over it!

If you have left the "Church" Brother Talmidim, I have no idea why you are here at all because MJ is part of the "Church". The commission of Yeshua is to do all that we can to put forth a witness to the Lord that is honoring of Him and all that He has taught us in Scripture and by Ruach HaKodesh. That should be our focus and we should leave to God the judgment of those doing wrong.

Anyone can use and abuse Scripture Brother Talmidim. I'm sorry you don't like the use of the term "legalism" but it in no way demonstrates a lack of understanding or sensitivity on my part toward my Brothers and Sisters in MJ or Christianity at large but rather discernment in identifying anything that defies Spiritual connection and God's truth. Discernment can be honed but it is also a gift of Ruach HaKodesh and I use my gift as often as He intends.

And it's fine to debate the different aspects of Torah, just not demand that all be as Torah observant as you. You need to cease the mantra that Messianics are not Christians. It's persecutive, it's untrue and it's more divisive than any forum debate could ever prove to be. The freedom I proclaim is the same freedom that you have because Messiach is the same for all Christians.

Perhaps you should, at some point in the future, list those of the 613 Laws you successfully obey on a daily basis? Because if you break only one, you are guilty of having broken them all.

You and others here criticized me for my lack of desire to look to Talmud for anything and for being sola Scriptura. But accepting what Yeshua did for me on the cross and seeking God's truth in Scripture as opposed to the so-called "wisdom of the sages" is my way of being free from the ordinances of the leaders of ancient Judea and from ancient Rome.

I take no offense at anything you have posted. I simply refute it.

If the mods will review the sections I have bolded an example of some issues with which this forum deals and about which we have herein been discussing will perhaps become clear. I'm aware that most of the mods will agree with most of which I have bolded but almost everything I bolded is Non-Messianic.

The poster says they are not anti-Torah, but that their view of Scripture is the right one and in their view "the Law was not one away with." THAT is the essence of anti-Torah.

The poster says this teaching is truth because they learned it "in two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist." They also said there are "mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?" THIS is quintessentially that about which we have been trying to explain.

This poster insists they are Messianic, yet they teach and debate in nearly every thread that:
The Law/Torah has been done away with
That they are merely insisting on standing for the truth of scripture, the real truth
If others disagree they will be dealt with by G-d

To this poster we "demand that all be as Torah observant as you" means that to say being Messianic means any level of Torah observance is demanding, unscriptural and unspiritual.

A great many Messianics would tell you they have "left the Church," and are "not Christians." The use of these phrases is usually more than mere semantics. However, it does Not mean they have left the "Body of Believers." It does mean they have left the culture within the Body whose roots and paradigm are Greek/Hellenistic. The poster demands that we here stop saying we are not Christians because "It's persecutive, it's untrue and it's more divisive than any forum debate could ever prove to be." It is seen as divisive only because it is perceived among the Christian paradigm that all members of the Body of Messiah are of the Christians/Hellenistic paradigm and therefore Christian and Believer are indisputively synonymous. The Gentile Church and the Messianic Synagogue are co-members of the Body. The hand can not say to the eye "you must be an eye to be part of the Body."

To be told by one who insists on being accepted as "Messianic" that "I know the word "Christian" rankles you but you just need to get over it!" and "'I'm sorry you don't like the use of the term "legalism" but it in no way demonstrates a lack of understanding or sensitivity on my part toward my Brothers and Sisters in MJ or Christianity at large but rather discernment in identifying anything that defies Spiritual connection and God's truth," all the while vociferously proclaiming "I am, however, more than willing to agree to disagree and maintain with all here a Christian attitude" is a rank example of the core of the topic of a great deal of the issues on this forum.

This does not cover everything I bolded but I AM typing and formatting with the tip of a finger on my 2.5x0.75 in type box on my iPod
It is VERY difficult to proofread in this format. LOL Please forgive typos!


b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

PLEASE see my correction below

 

[Jerushabelle]

Definately a video work having for a sticky and heads up in line with the SOP

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

 

[Chaplain David]

No, I'm proclaiming Scripture and what you do with it is between you and God.

Thank you but you also know that I was reported for posting anti-Torah comments here and I have never posted against Torah. I have only ever stood up for what is in Scripture and that is what I will continue to do. And what mainstream Christian doctrine is it that you know I disagree with...that the Law has been done away with? Would you like to know where I learned that the Law was not done away with?...in two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist. That's because I attended Scripture adhering and believing churches and there are plenty of them out there. Are there mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?

I have tried to align myself with all here Brother Talmidim and gotten my rear end nigh booted for it. You are speaking of Sister Qnts2, why dance around it, life's too short. She was kind to me when very few here would be and I have no clue as to whether we agree on all fronts of MJ. We probably do have differences but I'll cozy up to anyone who shares the fruit of the Spirit with me and work harder to maintain the commonality that exists in Yeshua. That being said, I've always been a sucker for the underdog! As to whether you believe I am anti-Torah...well, that's your problem. The fact that you are willing to toss a Brother or Sister under the proverbial bus on account of your doubts is also your problem and it's a serious one. I am, however, more than willing to agree to disagree and maintain with all here a Christian attitude. Yes, I know the word "Christian" rankles you but you just need to get over it!

If you have left the "Church" Brother Talmidim, I have no idea why you are here at all because MJ is part of the "Church". The commission of Yeshua is to do all that we can to put forth a witness to the Lord that is honoring of Him and all that He has taught us in Scripture and by Ruach HaKodesh. That should be our focus and we should leave to God the judgment of those doing wrong.

Anyone can use and abuse Scripture Brother Talmidim. I'm sorry you don't like the use of the term "legalism" but it in no way demonstrates a lack of understanding or sensitivity on my part toward my Brothers and Sisters in MJ or Christianity at large but rather discernment in identifying anything that defies Spiritual connection and God's truth. Discernment can be honed but it is also a gift of Ruach HaKodesh and I use my gift as often as He intends.

And it's fine to debate the different aspects of Torah, just not demand that all be as Torah observant as you. You need to cease the mantra that Messianics are not Christians. It's persecutive, it's untrue and it's more divisive than any forum debate could ever prove to be. The freedom I proclaim is the same freedom that you have because Messiach is the same for all Christians.

Perhaps you should, at some point in the future, list those of the 613 Laws you successfully obey on a daily basis? Because if you break only one, you are guilty of having broken them all.

You and others here criticized me for my lack of desire to look to Talmud for anything and for being sola Scriptura. But accepting what Yeshua did for me on the cross and seeking God's truth in Scripture as opposed to the so-called "wisdom of the sages" is my way of being free from the ordinances of the leaders of ancient Judea and from ancient Rome.

I take no offense at anything you have posted. I simply refute it.

If the mods will review the sections I have bolded an example of some issues with which this forum deals and about which we have herein been discussing will perhaps become clear. I'm aware that most of the mods will agree with most of which I have bolded but almost everything I bolded is Non-Messianic.

The poster says they are not anti-Torah, but that their view of Scripture is the right one and in their view "the Law was not done away with." THAT is the essence of anti-Torah.

The poster says this teaching is truth because they learned it "n two mainstream Christian denominations, Lutheran and Methodist." They also said there are "mainstream Christians who teach and believe otherwise? Sure are, but they aren't our problem, they are God's problem and He will deal with it. We have our assigned task, do we not?" THIS is quintessentially that about which we have been trying to explain.

This poster insists they are Messianic, yet they teach and debate in nearly every thread that:
The Law/Torah has been done away with
That they are merely insisting on standing for the truth of scripture, the real truth
If others disagree they will be dealt with by G-d

To this poster we "demand that all be as Torah observant as you" means that to say being Messianic means any level of Torah observance is demanding, unscriptural and unspiritual.

A great many Messianics would tell you they have "left the Church," and are "not Christians." The use of these phrases is usually more than mere semantics. However, it does Not mean they have left the "Body of Believers." It does mean they have left the culture within the Body whose roots and paradigm are Greek/Hellenistic. The poster demands that we here stop saying we are not Christians because "It's persecutive, it's untrue and it's more divisive than any forum debate could ever prove to be." It is seen as divisive only because it is perceived among the Christian paradigm that all members of the Body of Messiah are of the Christians/Hellenistic paradigm and therefore Christian and Believer are indisputively synonymous. The Gentile Church and the Messianic Synagogue are co-members of the Body. The hand can not say to the eye "you must be an eye to be part of the Body."

To be told by one who insists on being accepted as "Messianic" that "I know the word "Christian" rankles you but you just need to get over it!" and "'I'm sorry you don't like the use of the term "legalism" but it in no way demonstrates a lack of understanding or sensitivity on my part toward my Brothers and Sisters in MJ or Christianity at large but rather discernment in identifying anything that defies Spiritual connection and God's truth," all the while vociferously proclaiming "I am, however, more than willing to agree to disagree and maintain with all here a Christian attitude" is a rank example of the core of the topic of a great deal of the issues on this forum.

This does not cover everything I bolded but I AM typing and formatting with the tip of a finger on my 2.5x0.75 in type box on my iPod
It is VERY difficult to proofread in this format. LOL Please forgive typos!


b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

Good Evening, when you say the parts you bolded are you speaking about the parts that were in your quote that I have pasted above?

Afterthought, I have a tough enough time with this 10 inch notepad. Don't know how anyone can use anything smaller lol.

Peace be unto you and yours.

 

[Henaynei]

Good Evening, when you say the parts you bolded are you speaking about the parts that were in your quote that I have pasted above?

Afterthought, I have a tough enough time with this 10 inch notepad. Don't know how anyone can use anything smaller lol.

Peace be unto you and yours.

Shalom
The first "quote" you included (and quoted in my post above) is from a previous post by another poster in this thread about 5 posts back.

The second "quote" you included is my dissertation on that post

G-d bless you and your giant screen!

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}
PLEASE see my correction below

 

[anisavta]

Also it should be pointed out the sub forum for those who feel they are "more Torah Observant", it's called "Everything Torah". Posting messages of manditory Torah observance in that forum would eliminate much of the friction between camps in the first place.

Not really. All that would do is relegate those who observe Torah more diligently to a ghetto of sorts. And as far as I know no one in our forum demands "mandatory Torah observance". Friction is not necessarily wrong. Iron sharpens iron. Our issue as I see it is the disrespect we've experienced as Messianic Jews and Gentiles for not stepping in line with general Christian doctrine sometimes sadly disguised by those using the Torah scroll icon as their shield.

 

[The Templar]

Again the issue is there is no standard. And everyone here reflects the Messianic Judaism they are either part of or want Messianic Judaism to be.

If MJAA is the standard then in regards to being Torah positive then I would try to find another standard from another Messianic organization if you want to exemplify Torah positiveness and focus.

If we seek out the "perfect" SoF from just the "right" MJ organization aren't we only seeking to exclude those to which we do not agree?
The big issue which causes much disturbance is that of "Torah Observance", how much we obey or how much we do not. I fear this is really a issue of personal hypocricy, sorry to use that term but it is what fits best. We are all guilty of personal hypocricy, all of us.
Torah teaches us 613 commands of God, how many do we obey on a daily basis? How many do we violate on a daily basis? What is our excuse? Do we really have any excuse?
Who of us can actually claim any sincere level of Torah observance?
Is that not what Congregational Leader Steve Shermett said in his most accurate video lesson? Watch it HERE
Unity is what we need, not the seeking of better ways to establish stronger divisions within the Body of Yeshua.
I think the MJAA SoF alone is a good standard and if folks wish to post about Torah observance do it in the sub-forum set up for that.
Leave the main MJ board for general fellowship and edification.