Missionary Work in NY

[Gxg (G²)]

Thanks for clarifying, I agree, but again, my argument is more geared towards simply the scriptures, without the cultural emphasis... as even cultural emphasis can skew the scriptures.

Not doubting you were focused simply on the scriptures, but what was said was that the scriptures themselves speak clearly on the cultural emphasis..as opposed to reading culture back into the matter. When scripture gives commands about how to interact with differing cultures doctrinally, it is not adopting a "cultural emphasis" on the text to adhere to it. Hope that makes sense, for this is what was said earlier when it came to saying how doctrinal differences/concepts involved culture within the text and cannot be seperated since the doctrine was meant to speak on it. Not understanding that is the reason why you have others doing things like saying that the U.S.A is the NEW ISrael and we need to have a theocracy...or saying that believers today were meant to live in communes like the people did in the book of Acts says in Acts 2 and Acts 4.

This still has me confused a bit, do you think that Christianity believes in maintaining a Torah observant lifestyle?

On the issue, as said earlier, Christianity at many points has noted the need for walking in observance of the commands/Torah the Lord gives.

I agree, there are shared similarities, I am not trying to claim MJ has divorced itself from Christianity,

Not talking about simple similarities, nor saying its a matter of MJism divorcing itself from Christianity when they may agree. What is said is that MJism is a form of Christianity (Jewish Christianity) and it is not something distinct from it at all as much as it's simply a form of it. When it turns out a camp within MJism says they're not for "Christianity" and then happens to hold certain stances that were found already in Christianity, it's more than logical in realizing that what that form of MJism is would simply be exactly what was labeled as something else in Christianity. Trying to mince over the terms goes so far..

I am merely pointing out the doctrinal issues that create or created a separation.

Got ya on that. I think where others are coming from such as Qnts2 and others is that much of what caused the seperations is still essentially a return to certain manifestations of Christianity..and as he said best earlier:

Messianic Judaism is not called Jewish Christianity because of the issues connected to sensitivities and understanding in the Jewish culture.


Why something is called something is different then what something is. Is Messianic Judaism, Christianity? I would say Messianic Jews are split on this. If Christianity is defined salvation by faith in Jesus work and learning being a follower/learner/disciple of the risen Lord, Jesus, and Messianic Judaism is also about salvation by faith in Yeshuas work, and learning to be a disciple of the risen Lord, Yeshua, then both are Christian. I do believe Messianic Judaism is a form of Christianity if we look at the foundational doctrine of how one must be saved, and how one becomes a disciple of Messiah. .

In many ways, when others tried to seperate from what they may've saw around them and decided "We need to create something known as a MJish community!", they could never escape the reality that they were going back to the essence of what certain forms of Jewish Christianity were about. Thus, even though it seemed their actions were a "break-away" from Christianity, what they were really doing was returnng to a variation of CHristianity that had occurred long ago...and because they got caught up in the name change for differing reasons, people look back/assume "See, Christianity by nature failed the Jewish community!!!!"..

Christians and Christianity in Faith are still brothers and sisters and always will be.

Indeed...and thus, it's why others are glad to have Christian brothers/sisters--be it yourself or many others here and abroad. For everyone within MJism is a Christian, both by default and design. But the type of Christianity they practice (i.e. Jewish Christianity) is is expressed MJish terminology.

In many ways, looking for seperation is like one saying that being called "black" and being called "colored" are not the same thing.

 

[mishkan]

The Mosaic covenant was given to the nation of Israel, but we, as a unity, are not the nation of Israel. We are a different assembly who are of like Spirit.

Israel is made up of the children of Israel. Most are not saved and are not of like Spirit with us. You are not a member of Israel but are a member of this new united entity of only those who are born from above, with the Spirit of adoption. A new chosen nation, which does not replace Israel but has received the promise of the Messiah, Jew and Gentile, as prophesied.

The children of Israel are to be jealous of what we have received. Especially you more then me as you were excluded from the chosen nation but have received something much better. The Mosaic covenant did not include eternal salvation.

This teaching comes entirely from Christian theology. It is alien to Jewish thought, and explicitly contradicts the message of both Romans and Ephesians.

The early Messianics saw themselves as the faithful remnant--a subset--of the nation of Israel. That's what made the acceptance of Gentiles such a radical departure. Instead of pushing Gentiles away in the name of segregation, they were welcomed with open arms into the Messianic Kingdom of Israel. This is the singular message of Ephesians, chapters 1-4.

Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands—that at that time you were without Messiah, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.

But now in Messiah Yeshua you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

The section, read in its context, could not be more clear. Gentiles were regarded as aliens to Israel and the Covenants of Hashem. But coming to Messiah reverses that situation. They are now part of Israel and the Covenants of Hashem.

Not to sound self-serving, but I encourage you to review my series on Ephesians at the Mishkan David. I spent a lot of time developing this topic, and I've gotten a lot of positive reviews on that series.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I personally see Gentiles coming to the Jewish Messiah as fulfillment of Messianic prophesy so I agree that when we work together it is also a fulfillment of prophesy. Since Gentiles coming to Yeshua is a fulfillment of prophesy, I also see it as important for Gentiles to be aware that being Gentiles is an important sign.
.

Nothing to be ashamed of if you're a Gentile...as it's in no way "lesser" to being a Jewish believer

Growing up in a Jewish family very aware of the various persecutions of the so called Christian/Gentile church in very recent memory, the feeling was that Gentiles tolerated but didn't really like Jewish people, and it wouldn't take much for Gentiles to be swayed to take action against Jewish people.

Having friends/family who've experienced the same, I can see where you're coming from. What's interesting to me is hearing of other Jewish believers I'm close to who had struggle with other aspects of Jewish culture when there was either a belittlement of the sufferings that other groups experienced outside of them, making it out as if Jewish suffering was greater than all others, or denying many instances where Jewish groups persecuted Gentiles in horrible ways...with Gentiles being distrustful of Jews as a result.

There is good/evil in all people, Jew and Gentile alike...and all are to find transformation in the Messiah.

Gentiles showing a genuine love for the Jewish people and working together side by side is also a sign of the changed nature

 

[mishkan]

Six months in a congregation and she couldn't figure out they worshipped Jesus? I'm sorry but I'm not buying this story. I agree with you that for the sake of clarity Jesus should be called Jesus but this story is way too far fetched for me to believe.

I agree. Sounds just like Obama claiming to have been a member of Wright's church for 20 years, and yet had no idea what the man was teaching.

Yeah... right.

 

[visionary]

 

[mishkan]

Huh???

 

[Qnts2]

I sometimes feel cheated that I had no opportunity to select a distinctive Hebrew name for use in religious contexts. "David" is the same in English and in Hebrew.



You draw from this story the lesson that we must be confrontational, and accept the baggage of Medieval Christianity and the Inquisitions, with which Jews identify the name "Jesus".

I take from this story exactly the opposite lesson. When this woman was told of the Jewish Messiah, living as a Jew, and doing his thing according to the Torah, she was happy to follow him with all her heart. But uopn hearing the label, "Jesus", she grew angry and conflicted. That should tell us that we need not bear the burden of the linguistic baggage that comes with "Jesus"--just identify with Yeshua, and stop playing games.

If there was any failing in that congregation, it derived from the fact that there was no proper training in apologetics and personal education. New believers need to be taught that they will be rebuffed, and what arguments will be used to confront them. The woman in this story was never given appropriate foundational training.

Of course, we also must remember that this is an anecdote, and anecdotes can never be used to substantiate an argument. We have no idea of the final outcome of that story--the woman may have gone home, had a nice long talk with the Father, and returned to shul the next week, ready to learn what she had gotten herself into.


If you really want clear communcation, stop buying into this "Jesus is Yeshua" rhetoric. The two are not identical. At least, not to the Jewish mind... as evidenced so well by the anecdote you shared.


Clear communication necessitates using terminology that will accurately portray your message. If you want to get shut down for no good reason other than you want to use the Christian label of "Jesus", then be my guest. I'd rather use neutral language that allows real communication without prejudicial barriers.

Most Jewish people have the Hebrew name and a close English name. David (with the accent on the first syllable and the short i) is English. Daveed (with the accent on the last syllable and the longer EE sound) is Hebrew.

I will continue to use the English and Hebrew name.

If the baggage of persecution alters a persons belief, then I will submit they never believed to start with. If Jesus is really the Messiah, and Christianity in name only, grossly disobeyed what Jesus taught, that does not mean Jesus is not the Messiah. I am actually giving my own thought when I accepted Jesus as Messiah and Lord. There were no Messianic NT that I knew of or had access to. So when I bought the Gentile bible (NT), I just grabbed one off the shelf of the book store. It said Jesus.

I had no intention of ever believing in Jesus, and was thoroughly disgusted, thinking the NT must be anti-semitic. But, thanks to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and the revelation, no matter how much I didn't want it to be true, it was clearly true and Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. I could either accept Yeshua or reject Him but if I rejected Him, then I was rejecting Gods truth.

So despite what Christians had done, persecuting and killing Jewish people in Jesus name, Jesus (even in English) is the Jewish Messiah. If a person truly believes, by the revelation of the Lord, only the truth wins out, and the name, whether English or Hebrew does not matter. But, if we use the Hebrew name, and try to hide that most call Him Jesus, in English speaking countries, to disconnect what was done in His Name, then we are only being deceptive. And the Jewish person will find out that Yeshua is Jesus, unless you want to isolate them from all the people who call Him Jesus. And that is deceptive.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Block Party..New York Style....

 

[visionary]

Most Jewish people have the Hebrew name and a close English name. David (with the accent on the first syllable and the short i) is English. Daveed (with the accent on the last syllable and the longer EE sound) is Hebrew.

I will continue to use the English and Hebrew name.

If the baggage of persecution alters a persons belief, then I will submit they never believed to start with. If Jesus is really the Messiah, and Christianity in name only, grossly disobeyed what Jesus taught, that does not mean Jesus is not the Messiah. I am actually giving my own thought when I accepted Jesus as Messiah and Lord. There were no Messianic NT that I knew of or had access to. So when I bought the Gentile bible (NT), I just grabbed one off the shelf of the book store. It said Jesus.

I had no intention of ever believing in Jesus, and was thoroughly disgusted, thinking the NT must be anti-semitic. But, thanks to the drawing of the Holy Spirit and the revelation, no matter how much I didn't want it to be true, it was clearly true and Jesus is the Jewish Messiah. I could either accept Yeshua or reject Him but if I rejected Him, then I was rejecting Gods truth.

So despite what Christians had done, persecuting and killing Jewish people in Jesus name, Jesus (even in English) is the Jewish Messiah. If a person truly believes, by the revelation of the Lord, only the truth wins out, and the name, whether English or Hebrew does not matter. But, if we use the Hebrew name, and try to hide that most call Him Jesus, in English speaking countries, to disconnect what was done in His Name, they we are only being deceptive. And the Jewish person will find out that Yeshua is Jesus, unless you want to isolate them from all the people who call Him Jesus. And that is deceptive.

Jesus conjures up images and represents church history and doctrines than has very little Judaism in it. Yeshua bring us back to who He really is.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Jesus conjures up images and represents church history and doctrines than has very little Judaism in it. Yeshua bring us back to who He really is.

Yeshua actually brings up images of what the Talmud says when it defines him as a magician--and to others, it reminds them of someone who blasphemed. For others, it also brings up images of others that were for racial slurs made by other Jewish groups toward those who were Gentiles..or persecuted Gentiles.

But the use of a name/what it reminds of cannot be the basis behind usage anymore than one can say no one should cars when it comes to transportation because it happens to remind others of those who were drunk drivers that killed loved ones. And in light of the many Jews who've used both Yeshua and Jesus when referring to him as Lord---with no issue---one must be aware of whatever group one's dealing with. Not all Jews are the same and have the same reactions to words. Moreover, there are people not using the term "Yeshua" who know the Lord far more than others who are only against the term "Jesus" as seen in their love for others.

 

[visionary]

Yeshua actually brings up images of what the Talmud says when it defines him as a magician--and to others, it reminds them of someone who blasphemed. For others, it also brings up images of others that were for racial slurs made by other Jewish groups toward those who were Gentiles..or persecuted Gentiles.

But the use of a name/what it reminds of cannot be the basis behind usage anymore than one can say no one should cars when it comes to transportation because it happens to remind others of those who were drunk drivers that killed loved ones. And in light of the many Jews who've used both Yeshua and Jesus when referring to him as Lord---with no issue---one must be aware of whatever group one's dealing with. Not all Jews are the same and have the same reactions to words. Moreover, there are people not using the term "Yeshua" who know the Lord far more than others who are only against the term "Jesus" as seen in their love for others.

no one has ever accused the Jews of being Yeshua killers.. Jesus Christ killers but not Messiah Yeshua

 

[Qnts2]

As for some ot the things you mentioned about the Torah scroll proper let me address from my personal experience: touching the scroll - when it is processed past me it has not been unwrapped, I place two fingers of my right hand to it and bring them to my lips for the Lord said to taste and see that the Word of the Lord is good/sweet. Women touching the Torah - I'm assuming that you mean when it has been unwrapped, I didn't think anyone was to touch it proper, I've only ever seen it undressed, unrolled or rerolled and redressed by men in my shul, and they never touch the face of the scroll except with a yad (I'm ignorant of what that part is properly referred as, sorry). (As far as a female processing the Torah, my shul has never done this but I have seen a synagogue, out of NY I think, that has a full Sukkot service on you tube and a woman is seen processing a wrapped scroll!! and these are Orthodox Jews, not Yeshua believing Jews!!)

The reason women do not touch the Torah (wrapped) is that women have a time of being unclean. Should, unknown to the woman as she has not yet found out she is unclean, or the woman forgets, touching the Torah in an unclean state would render the Torah unclean.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

no one has ever accused the Jews of being Yeshua killers..

Actually they have---multiple times, for anyone fully aware

And as said before, trying to focus on the term "Jesus" because of how it's used is not consistent if done in isolation from all other terminology utilized in a negative fashion which has been abused by MULTIPLE people all over (be it "Torah", "Law", "Covenant" , "Cursre", or many other things). That...and the fact that it has never been shown at all within history that all Jews have taken offense at the name "Jesus" because of how it's used. As they already refer to Yeshua in circles of Judaism as a false prophet/magician, it's not logically consistent to try focusing on where Jesus may bring up certain images and then claim "Yeshua makes people think Biblical!!!" since that's not even how all Jews see it. Many think of Jesus and Yeshua as the same since they know the concept.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The reason women do not touch the Torah (wrapped) is that women have a time of being unclean. Should, unknown to the woman as she has not yet found out she is unclean, or the woman forgets, touching the Torah in an unclean state would render the Torah unclean.

Pull a Ralph Messer with that one

 

[mishkan]

Pull a Ralph Messer with that one

???

Could you expand on that, please?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

???

Could you expand on that, please?

It was a joke, in regards to what recently happened with Ralph Messer and the entire fiasco in wrapping people in Torah scrolls....most recently women such as Paula White while previously it was Eddie Long.

 

[yedida]

This teaching comes entirely from Christian theology. It is alien to Jewish thought, and explicitly contradicts the message of both Romans and Ephesians.

The early Messianics saw themselves as the faithful remnant--a subset--of the nation of Israel. That's what made the acceptance of Gentiles such a radical departure. Instead of pushing Gentiles away in the name of segregation, they were welcomed with open arms into the Messianic Kingdom of Israel. This is the singular message of Ephesians, chapters 1-4.


The section, read in its context, could not be more clear. Gentiles were regarded as aliens to Israel and the Covenants of Hashem. But coming to Messiah reverses that situation. They are now part of Israel and the Covenants of Hashem.

Not to sound self-serving, but I encourage you to review my series on Ephesians at the Mishkan David. I spent a lot of time developing this topic, and I've gotten a lot of positive reviews on that series.

Thank you David. This is getting soooo overwhelming, trying to tear down everything that I have been taught for the last 7 years. She seems to keep thinking that all we're discussing is church brand christianity and many of us are in no way a part of that. We're trying to learn how to walk out Torah as Yeshua taught and walked. That is not what mainstream is doing, they think that that way is dead and void.

 

[anisavta]

The reason women do not touch the Torah (wrapped) is that women have a time of being unclean. Should, unknown to the woman as she has not yet found out she is unclean, or the woman forgets, touching the Torah in an unclean state would render the Torah unclean.

I just may be bald by the end of this conversation due to pulling my hair out.
The reason we (men and women) don't touch the undressed Torah scroll is because it is made of lambskin and the oils from our hands ruin the scroll over time. AND we touch the dressed scroll with our Bibles, siddurim or tzitzit because our hands are unholy, but a Bible, siddurot or tzitzit is considered holy and respectful.

 

[yedida]

The reason women do not touch the Torah (wrapped) is that women have a time of being unclean. Should, unknown to the woman as she has not yet found out she is unclean, or the woman forgets, touching the Torah in an unclean state would render the Torah unclean.

I understand that and I'm sure those where I worship are aware of this time as well (niddah is a part of our observing of the Torah). But then we also have the problem with the men - are we always positive that they have not inadvertantly stepped on things or accidently touched things that are not clean thus rendering them unclean as well. There has to be a place of trust for everyone to operate as best as they can. There are many women, myself included when I'm wearing one, will use the corner of their prayer shawls to touch to the scroll and then bring it to their lips. That's something I've seen most of our congregants do, it's just a normal thing. Some of the men will use the tzitziot instead of their fingers.

 

[yedida]

I just may be bald by the end of this conversation due to pulling my hair out.
The reason we (men and women) don't touch the undressed Torah scroll is because it is made of lambskin and the oils from our hands ruin the scroll over time. AND we touch the dressed scroll with our Bibles, siddurim or tzitzit because our hands are unholy, but a Bible, siddurot or tzitzit is considered holy and respectful.

Ah, thank you for that Ani. I never knew. Some big sisters care enough to share!! I'll pass this on when I get back to my old shul, but in the 30 months that I've been gone, they could have learned this!! (And I might have offended someone if you hadn't told me.) In fact, I'd seen many there that did use the Bible, Siddur and in a previous post I did mention the tzitziot, but aside from the tzitziot I'd always wondered why they used the books. Cool, now I know. (I never questioned the tzitziot simply because I thought it was a very nice gesture.)