Missionary Work in NY

[etZion]

Glad to see you put it so bluntly. In your world, there is apparently no room for "one Lord, one Faith, one Mikveh, one God and Father over all". There is only room for the Jew.

This is the error for which Kefa was called out publicly.

Agreed, this type of thinking must and needs to be challenged, as well as, corrected.

 

[Qnts2]

Glad to see you put it so bluntly. In your world, there is apparently no room for "one Lord, one Faith, one Mikveh, one God and Father over all". There is only room for the Jew.

This is the error for which Kefa was called out publicly.

Hmmm, I guess in your world, all Gentiles must live like Jews to make it one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One God and Father over all.

But God made Gentiles. And God made more Gentiles then He made Jews, so God must really love Gentiles since He made so many of them. Gentiles don't have to live like Jews for God to love them.

What you do by your One Law is destroy the Torah.

By the way, do you have an issue with God making room for the Jew too?

 

[visionary]

Hmmm, I guess in your world, all Gentiles must live like Jews to make it one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One God and Father over all.

But God made Gentiles. And God made more Gentiles then He made Jews, so God must really love Gentiles since He made so many of them. Gentiles don't have to live like Jews for God to love them.

What you do by your One Law is destroy the Torah.

By the way, do you have an issue with God making room for the Jew too?

He made humans....and as a body of humans, we are to obey Him as He outlined for us all. Rub the distinction out.. rather than the Law off of His people's hearts.

 

[aniello]

Hmmm, I guess in your world, all Gentiles must live like Jews to make it one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One God and Father over all.

But God made Gentiles. And God made more Gentiles then He made Jews, so God must really love Gentiles since He made so many of them. Gentiles don't have to live like Jews for God to love them.

What you do by your One Law is destroy the Torah.

By the way, do you have an issue with God making room for the Jew too?

Baloney and cheese. Sorry, not biting any of your schtick. What's for dessert? Drech?

 

[mishkan]

Hmmm, I guess in your world, all Gentiles must live like Jews to make it one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism, One God and Father over all.

Depends on what you think it means to "live like Jews". I live like Hashem instructed "his people" to live.

But God made Gentiles. And God made more Gentiles then He made Jews, so God must really love Gentiles since He made so many of them. Gentiles don't have to live like Jews for God to love them.

Isn't that clever... you can quote Jewish sayings. Does that strengthen your position, somehow?

What you do by your One Law is destroy the Torah.

I hear that all the time from the self-appointed leaders of the organizations you seem to hold dear. Oddly, though, there is never any substance offered past this volley of allegation.

By the way, do you have an issue with God making room for the Jew too?

Nope. I love Israel and the Jewish people. Heck, I live in Baltimore. My world would be pretty sad if I had a problem with Jews. You are the one who initiated trotting out the ethnic biases, not me. You have no footing for trying to charge me with bias when you have explicitly shown your disrespect for Gentiles who live as part of the MJ community.

My friend, I have been a teacher in an MJ shul for nearly 30 years. Not just some shlock place in outer Yenneveldt, either. But I have not bought the racist line that God has only an "associate membership" for the poor, dumb Gentiles.

 

[aniello]

Depends on what you think it means to "live like Jews". I live like Hashem instructed "his people" to live.


Isn't that clever... you can quote Jewish sayings. Does that strengthen your position, somehow?


I hear that all the time from the self-appointed leaders of the organizations you seem to hold dear. Oddly, though, there is never any substance offered past this volley of allegation.


Nope. I love Israel and the Jewish people. Heck, I live in Baltimore. My world would be pretty sad if I had a problem with Jews. You are the one who initiated trotting out the ethnic biases, not me. You have no footing for trying to charge me with bias when you have explicitly shown your disrespect for Gentiles who live as part of the MJ community.

My friend, I have been a teacher in an MJ shul for nearly 30 years. Not just some shlock place in outer Yenneveldt, either. But I have not bought the racist line that God has only an "associate membership" for the poor, dumb Gentiles.

Excellent, well done. Would work in court!

 

[mishkan]

Excellent, well done. Would work in court!

Now you've made me blush.

I really am not concerned about court. I'd much prefer that it work with making people see that we are all supposed to be on an even playing field. Isn't that what the first few chapters of Romans are all about?

 

[Qnts2]

Depends on what you think it means to "live like Jews". I live like Hashem instructed "his people" to live.


Isn't that clever... you can quote Jewish sayings. Does that strengthen your position, somehow?


I hear that all the time from the self-appointed leaders of the organizations you seem to hold dear. Oddly, though, there is never any substance offered past this volley of allegation.


Nope. I love Israel and the Jewish people. Heck, I live in Baltimore. My world would be pretty sad if I had a problem with Jews. You are the one who initiated trotting out the ethnic biases, not me. You have no footing for trying to charge me with bias when you have explicitly shown your disrespect for Gentiles who live as part of the MJ community.

My friend, I have been a teacher in an MJ shul for nearly 30 years. Not just some shlock place in outer Yenneveldt, either. But I have not bought the racist line that God has only an "associate membership" for the poor, dumb Gentiles.

You are trying to make Gentiles keep the law, but fail to understand that it is Yeshua's death, that brought believing Jew and believing Gentile together as one new body, under the New Covenant.

In otherwords, you are trying to solve a problem which doesn't exist.
But, in solving that so called problem of making Jews and Gentiles equal and one community, you are making Gentiles live like Jews. In the meantime, neglecting the meaning of the law and the New Covenant.

Messianic Judaism has renounced One Law, repeatedly.

I do not consider MBI, Messianic Judaism. It started as Two House, and a diploma mill, and still seeks money and followers.

Having spoken to you in the past, I have never understood how you got connected with that shlock.

And as far as the Associate member, if you don't like that, then you don't like sharing the gospel with the Jewish people and representing yourself accurately. If it is called Messianic Judaism, it is a Jewish organization, so the membership must be Jewish.

So while you tell the Gentiles how prejudiced Messianic Judaism is, you work against Messianic Jews and Rabbinical Jews. By the way, most Gentiles who have joined in with Messianic Judaism have had no issue with the organizaiton as they love the Jewish people and want them to come to know Yeshua.

 

[yedida]

Now you've made me blush.

I really am not concerned about court. I'd much prefer that it work with making people see that we are all supposed to be on an even playing field. Isn't that what the first few chapters of Romans are all about?

This whole debate has reached the porportions of ridiculousness to me. But it is very hurtful to us gentiles. As a wise man once said, "leave these men alone. if this thing is of men, it will die off of its own volition. But if it is of God, you cannot fight it." Let those who have ears to hear, hear.

We also have to remember that there are going to be many that in the last days say, "Lord, Lord, didn't we???..." and they're gonna hear, "depart from me, I never knew you." It's so easy to forget that these words were originally spoken to Jews! not gentiles. Though we gentiles must take ownership of that warning as well if we are to be called His. Just saying.....

It also reminds me what we're talking about in another thread, about Kilam. The greater knowledge dwindling and the lesser knowledge growing bigger, out from under the greater.

 

[Henaynei]

I am Messianic Gentile. Since I was saved I have Never had a problem with serving the Jewish people.

Not long after regularly attending a MJ congregation I admit I did go through a period of envy, of wanting that which I perceived that the Jewish people had, a unique "specialness" to G-d. I wanted IT too.

But then G-d showed me two things:
1) my sin - I wanted something I did not have, because someone else had it - I "had a right to it too!"
2) my calling - to stand along side the Jewish people, Messianic, Rabbinic, Secular and everything in-between, and stand against their foes, to be a true friend, to count the cost and stand faithfully my ground.

I repented of my sin. I rejoiced and studied my calling. Since that day I have fully known that every follower of Messiah, whether ham eating, Christmas keeping, Sunday worshipping Gentile or kosher keeping, festival keeping, Shabbat keeping Jew, both have exactly equal access to the heart and throne of our mutual Master, Creator, Savior and L-rd!

Since I was married to a Messianic Jew we have lived a Jewish life, keeping Shabbat and the Festivals, keeping Rabbinic kosher when we can, p'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] kosher when we've lived so far from Jewish community that Full Rabbinic Kosher is not available to us, keeping the family purity laws as long as they applied to us.

I know Messianic Gentiles that call themselves Messianic Jews, they keep many of the mitzvot and reason "why not." They refuse to listen to reason or to pleas on how so doing destroys any chance to earn the right to discuss the Messiah with Jewish people or how their exception brings shame on the Name of G-d.

But I do understand from where they and the Two Housers are coming.

I have been encouraged by many Jewish folk to convert to Messianic Judaism. They have seen my walk for many years. As much as I'd like to do so it seems HaShem has barred the door, for now.

But know this: I've never called myself, nor allowed another to call me Jewish. If HaShem ever opens a way for me to convert I will not be doing it to be eligible for Aliyah - I won't be eligible. I won't be doing it to be accepted by the Jewish community, I won't be accepted. I won't be doing it to attain some special designation or unique specialness to G-d. I am special to Him just as I am.

I will be doing it because of the growth of the calling He has placed on my life. I am called to stand by, with and for the Jewish people, come what may. What ever the cost I have laid my lot. Whether it be as a Gentile or a Jew will be up to HaShem.

 

[yedida]

You are trying to make Gentiles keep the law, but fail to understand that it is Yeshua's death, that brought believing Jew and believing Gentile together as one new body, under the New Covenant.

In otherwords, you are trying to solve a problem which doesn't exist.
But, in solving that so called problem of making Jews and Gentiles equal and one community, you are making Gentiles live like Jews. In the meantime, neglecting the meaning of the law and the New Covenant.

Messianic Judaism has renounced One Law, repeatedly.

I do not consider MBI, Messianic Judaism. It started as Two House, and a diploma mill, and still seeks money and followers.

Having spoken to you in the past, I have never understood how

I am Messianic Gentile. Since I was saved I have Never had a problem with serving the Jewish people.

Not long after regularly attending a MJ congregation I admit I did go through a period of envy, of wanting that which I perceived that the Jewish people had, a unique "specialness" to G-d. I wanted IT too. But then G-d showed me two things:
1) my sin - I wanted something I did not have, because someone else had it - I "had a right to it too!"
2) my calling - to stand along side the Jewish people, Messianic, Rabbinic, Secular and everything in-between, and stand against their foes, to be a true friend, to count the cost and stand faithfully my ground.

I repented of my sin. I rejoiced and studied my calling.

Since I was married to a Messianic Jew we have lived a Jewish life, keeping Shabbat and the Festivals, keeping Rabbinic kosher when we can, p'[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] kosher when we've lived so far from Jewish community that Full Rabbinic Kosher is not available to us, keeping the family purity laws as long as they applied to us.

I know Messianic Gentiles that call themselves Messianic Jews, they keep many of the mitzvot and reason "why not." They refuse to listen to reason or to pleas on how so doing destroys any chance to earn the right to discuss the Messiah with Jewish people or how their exception brings shame on the Name of G-d.

But I do understand from where they and the Two Housers are coming.

I have been encouraged by many Jewish folk to convert to Messianic Judaism. They have seen my walk for many years. As much as I'd like to do so it seems HaShem has barred the door, for now.

But know this: I've never called myself, nor allowed another to call me Jewish. If HaShem ever opens a way for me to convert I will not be doing it to be eligible for Aliyah - I won't be eligible. I won't be doing it to be accepted by the Jewish community, I won't be accepted. I won't be doing it to attain some special designation or unique specialness to G-d. I am special to Him just as I am.

I will be doing it because of the growth of the calling He has placed on my life. I am called to stand by, with and for the Jewish people, come what may. What ever the cost I have laid my lot. Whether it be as a Gentile or a Jew will be up to HaShem.

I couldn't agree with Henaynie more. I haven't even researched my background. If I ever do a Messianic Conversion it will be because I've been led to do so and because I've listened to that leading and obeyed. If I ever have the right to use the term "Jew" for myself it will be because of that reason, not because someone in my past was Jewish and I found this out by searching in hopes of finding it. Now, if someone in my family approached me and told me a story of such, that would be an entirely different matter. And I would rejoice greatly in it, and mourn for those who felt they had to hide that fact for survival. But I doubt that will ever happen. So I want it to be Hashem' s working and my obedience. Until then, I'm quite happy being the special gentile that I am, but I am also adopted into the family of God with all privileges and responsibilites of the natural born family members.

 

[aniello]

...............

I do not consider MBI, Messianic Judaism. ..........

Forgive me please, I need to ask a question. I backtracked the thread but I can't find the answer. Senior brain flame out I guess.

What does MBI stand for? Obviously it's an acronym for some group or something, I just draw a blank.

Need to know for the continuity and flow of the thread.

Thank you.

 

[aniello]

Never mind. I Googled, got lucky and found it.

Messianic Bureau International?

My my. Looks like all your modern come lately psuedo-jewish religities have turned into a bunch of competing business models, including the ones listed as authoritative on MJ on various threads. My personal experience would place UMJC at the top of my list for disdain, for well grounded, well founded reasons over the past 35 years. Converting gentiles to Messianic Judaism, keeping up the wall of separation betwixt Jew and gentile, only certain Jews of certain Ashkenazic origin fully acceptable, on and on. Then we have the fearless higher leader of this fuzz-bomb org. slinking into our Traditional Conservative Shul so he can learn how Jews who have always been Jews do Jewish things. I'm gonna get nauseous maybe.

Not what I'm interested in!

Rant on, without me.

 

[visionary]

I see no reason, nor have any desire to be a Jew. It isn't in my blood. I am called by God to live a life that imitates Him and as such have been asked if I was Jewish.. which I shake my head.. saying no.. I just obey God because I love and trust His advice. I am content..

 

[aniello]

I see no reason, nor have any desire to be a Jew. It isn't in my blood. I am called by God to live a life that imitates Him and as such have been asked if I was Jewish.. which I shake my head.. saying no.. I just obey God because I love and trust His advice. I am content..

Totally agree.

I don't know too many people who were clever enough to pick their parents before they were born, except some of my Mormon acquaintenances. Wierd! If I could have picked mine, I would have been RICH, self serving little worm that I am.

 

[Jase]

I don't like this evangelizing to Jews stuff. A very big part of why so many Jews have a problem with Christians, and especially Messianics, is they used manipulation and underhanded tactics to try and convert Jews to Christianity.

Jews for Jesus and the like are not Jewish organizations. They are Southern Baptist. I have no respect for them whatsoever.

It is not part of God's plan to deal with most Jews right now. He will deal with that issue eventually, but I don't think manipulating Jews into conversion is what he wants. It's why I myself have a big problem with the whole Messianic movement, since it has way too many gentiles using those methods.

 

[etZion]

You are trying to make Gentiles keep the law, but fail to understand that it is Yeshua's death, that brought believing Jew and believing Gentile together as one new body, under the New Covenant.

First of all, no one can make anyone do anything, false assumption.. Gentiles are being drawn to the Torah, we also are helping reach out to gentiles to return to obedience to God's ways, instead of their own ways. Second, Jews and Gentiles are not together, they were separated quickly after the time of the Apostles, as Gentiles abandoned their Jewish brethren, and then came replacement theology, where Israel was replaced by the Church, and thus Jews would convert to be Gentiles, right now in these times there is a reunification happening... which is starting with gentiles throwing away destructive doctrines, such as replacement theology, or that God is done with Israel, and that there is a plan here, for the gentiles to provoke the Jews to jealousy.

Under the New Covenant, which is made with the House of Judah and the House of Israel only, gentiles are joining, through faith in Messiah, being brought into the commonwealth of Israel, as has always been the case, conversion by faith.

You on the other hand, are trying to keep gentiles out and to keep them from receiving blessings from obedience, shame on you.

In otherwords, you are trying to solve a problem which doesn't exist.

There is a serious problem, with much of Christianities(Gentile) doctrines, there exist still a wall of separation between gentiles and jews, as evidenced here, there most definitely is a problem and will continue to as long as people continue to make an ethnicity issue out of the community of God, and that goes for both Jews and Gentiles.

But, in solving that so called problem of making Jews and Gentiles equal and one community, you are making Gentiles live like Jews. In the meantime, neglecting the meaning of the law and the New Covenant.

There is One Law for the community, and no one is making Gentiles do anything, we are teaching what the scriptures say, in regard to obedience to God. I will be more than willing to teach you what the scriptures say in this regard, but for some reason I get the feeling you are not interested.

So... essentially what you are doing is trying to divide Jews and Gentiles, and are focusing on making God's word into a ethnicity issue, again shame on you, because you are rebuilding the wall of separation all over again or at least maintaining it.

Messianic Judaism has renounced One Law, repeatedly.

No, UMJC has renounced One Law, and that's ok, they lack the scriptural support to make solid claims.

And as far as the Associate member, if you don't like that, then you don't like sharing the gospel with the Jewish people and representing yourself accurately.

I did not know whether to laugh at the part you underlined or feel sad for you, no one needs to be part of a organization to share the Gospel to the Jewish people and neither does that mean that one does not like sharing the Gospel. Seriously, this is one of the most absurd things I have heard yet, all to justify a prejudice against gentiles.

If it is called Messianic Judaism, it is a Jewish organization, so the membership must be Jewish.

If that is the case then this organization does not represent or stand for the values that the Bible teaches, in fact that would make it diametrically opposed to the very words of scripture. Treating gentiles as less within the community of God is disgusting... This should be challenged and pointed out, so gentiles are not supporting a corrupted organization or ministry.

So while you tell the Gentiles how prejudiced Messianic Judaism is, you work against Messianic Jews and Rabbinical Jews.

Another absurd claim. But if it is true, then it only means you work against a unified body of believers.

By the way, most Gentiles who have joined in with Messianic Judaism have had no issue with the organizaiton as they love the Jewish people and want them to come to know Yeshua.

Of course, so do all of us.

 

[yedida]

I agree wholeheartedly with EtZion. Qnts2 you need to quit forcing your warped view that gentiles are out trying to change Messianic Judaism. We ARE NOT. It is changing of it's own volition and if this is of God you are fighting against Him. Is this what you want your legacy to be? And if this is not of God, why are you working so hard to fight against something that is already doomed. Either way, you are expending precious personal resources fighting a battle that is not yours to fight - it's Hashem's. I'm sure He'll have the outcome He desires.
The Torah was not given to the Jews for the Jews to own it. It's the Word of God, no one but Hashem can own it. The Jews were to take His words and learn from them and learn to live it out and thereby be able to be shining lights to the nations. And when the nations would come to you, you were to share God's Torah with them. We have come, in droves, and now, most of you guys want to hug tight that which isn't yours to keep. It was entrusted to you to pass on, not just to your sons and daughters but to all who wanted to know your God. Why are you not doing what God intended you to do? Instead, you all cry, "Mine! Mine!!" Then you make concessoins, but that only makes us second class citizens - ain't gonna work. The word says we are the commonwealth of Israel, we were afar off and have now been brought near. If the Torah is still alive for the Jew who believes in Yeshua then it is most alive and well for all who follow Yeshua as that is all He taught. We have embraced our elder brethren but the next move is up to you - so far all we've gotten for the most part are stingy, arrogant elder siblings. I'm gonna tell Abba on you soon!!!! lol.

 

[mishkan]

I agree wholeheartedly with EtZion. Qnts2 you need to quit forcing your warped view that gentiles are out trying to change Messianic Judaism. We ARE NOT.

I know I'm not. I've been part of the Messianic Movement since 1981. Seems to me I have a right to add my say to how things have been, and should be, defined.

But, then again... I keep forgetting I'm just a dumb Goy, so I have no say because I'm from the wrong bloodline.

Didn't somebody say something and "rocks" and "sons of Abraham"? I'd like to think I rate being at least a rock in God's economy... you know?

It is changing of it's own volition

I'm not sure I'm even willing to go that far. If there is a change, it is only that the mask of hypocrisy has been dropped, and we are seeing anti-Gentile attitude for what it is. The Jewish believers were happy to have us around to help them jumpstart the congregations, but now they are starting to openly say we're only good enough to be Shabbat goyim and do the heavy lifting.

Which, by the way, I'm delighted to do the heavy lifting... as long as I am regarded as a real co-citizen in the community. I'm not some Gibeonite who lied his way into the camp.

At this point, I have been told that expecting full integration somehow violates the Torah, as well as setting me contrary to the goal of bringing Jewish people to Yeshua. Not to mention the personal barbs that I have received. I haven't had bad feelings towards Jews in the movement before, but I'm beginning to understand why some do.

The Torah was not given to the Jews for the Jews to own it. It's the Word of God, no one but Hashem can own it. The Jews were to take His words and learn from them and learn to live it out and thereby be able to be shining lights to the nations. And when the nations would come to you, you were to share God's Torah with them.

Precisely.

We have come, in droves, and now, most of you guys want to hug tight that which isn't yours to keep. It was entrusted to you to pass on, not just to your sons and daughters but to all who wanted to know your God. Why are you not doing what God intended you to do? Instead, you all cry, "Mine! Mine!!"

Good summary of what we have been seeing.

We have embraced our elder brethren but the next move is up to you - so far all we've gotten for the most part are stingy, arrogant elder siblings. I'm gonna tell Abba on you soon!!!! lol.

<pssst!> I think he knows, already.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

New York's a trip...