Is belief enough to be saved?

[squint]

r u going to refute the romans 7 post?

all u prove with your "sin dwelling present" sentence that you always say, is life under law...

Well, so far I see Linda speaking somewhat truthfully, but still trying to claim 'both' statements of 'having sin' so she's not outright proven to be speaking dishonestly and then claiming that somehow, magically I suppose, that 'her spirit' has NO SIN.

So, yeah, trying to dance about will bring a certain interesting flavor to the mix by claiming BOTH are true as if that somehow is supposed to make some kind of sense.

I have sin but I don't have sin. Uh, OK then.

Next!

s

 

[Frogster]

If someone is claiming never to commit acts with the flesh which are considered sin, they are lying; and yet, if someone claims that God is no longer imputing their sin to them and they are therefore sinless, that would be Scriptural.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The only sinlessness a Christian has is in his spirit, and thats the gift of God and the act of God's Spirit. This is not referring to flesh. Our the flesh is still subject to the law of sin and death. [Rom. 7:23] But our spirit has been freed and serves the Law of Spirit. [Rom. 8:2]

Good stuff, under the Abrahamic promise, the transgressional system was removed, as you know.


rom 4;15 For the law brings wrath, but where there is no law there is no transgression.

In Abraham, it is guaranteed, that is why we can't blow it, faith and grace, not law. God took away the wrath working law.


4;16 That is why it depends on faith, in order that the promise may rest on grace and be guaranteed to all his offspring—not only to the adherent of the law but also to the one who shares the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all,

 

[Lion King]

then why didn't james want to add law to the churches in acts 15, if we are not justified by faith alone? if they didn't want the mosaic law, that covers all. And you can't post one verse from Paul, to prove your point, apul who says the total opposite in several passages, and council meeting, that had the james u quote agreeed with paul in acts 15.

Yet, Paul preached that we should all keep the LORD's commandments:

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 1 Corinthians 9:19-21

_ _ _

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19

 

[Frogster]

Well, so far I see Linda speaking somewhat truthfully, but still trying to claim 'both' statements of 'having sin' so she's not outright proven to be speaking dishonestly and then claiming that somehow, magically I suppose, that 'her spirit' has NO SIN.

So, yeah, trying to dance about will bring a certain interesting flavor to the mix by claiming BOTH are true as if that somehow is supposed to make some kind of sense.

I have sin but I don't have sin. Uh, OK then.

Next!

s

then u r saying Christ was raised in sin. because acording to romans 6, we r raised in him, free from sin, so either Christ is free, and we r free, or christ was raised in sin, take your pick.


..we are in Christ, in adam we were bad boys and girls, in Christ we are good boys and girls.


6;7 For one who has died has been set free from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him.

united with him in his death, united with him in his????




6;5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.


read the dead and alive verses in rom 6.

 

[Frogster]

Yet, Paul preached that we should all keep the LORD's commandments:

Though I am free and belong to no one, I have made myself a slave to everyone, to win as many as possible. To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law. To those not having the law I became like one not having the law (though I am not free from God’s law but am under Christ’s law), so as to win those not having the law. 1 Corinthians 9:19-21

_ _ _

Was anyone called while circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Was anyone called while uncircumcised? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19

who ever said to go out and steal? but our issue is faith alone, and james in acts 15, agreed with paul, and so no adding law to salvation, faith alone...IE..hehehe

 

[squint]

The reason I brought forward a 'factual' observation of works is to show a couple of basic facts.

A. Even when doing 'good works' we still can NOT say we have 'no sin' and be IN Truth. So, what does that say of 'works?' Works are not and can not be a 'basis' of SALVATION as they are obviously neither Perfect or 'untainted.' It's not a 'all works are good' measure as even a remote possibility.

and B, faith plus 'dual' works (good and bad) or tainted works (good works plus the fact of sin present) or less than Perfect works' can not make faith one iota different. Faith is a matter of DIVINE PROMISE and the belief in/of salvation regardless. His Spirit DWELLS with SINNERS in the 'faithful.'

When our 'works' become the measure of His Inhabitation one should rightfully and utterly FAIL by the measure of honesty.

Faith should not lead us into the lying delusion that we are Perfect.

Our works WILL only serve the fact that we're NOT when honesty is applied to same.

s

 

[squint]

then u r saying Christ was raised in sin.

Oh please. Fantastic leaps off self made cliffs are not even relevant to the conversation. There is no such statement made by me.

Christ HUNG DEAD upon a CROSS to show us exactly where our SINFUL bodies are headed. He hung sinless and undeserving.

People 'mocked Him' as well when He did not save Himself from the Cross.

The Cross was His Faithful Measure. No sin is crossing over into Heaven, period.

because acording to romans 6, we r raised in him, free from sin, so either Christ is free, and we r free, or christ was raised in sin, take your pick.

As stated prior, faith should not lead us into deceptive delusions about sin and the fact of it's presence.

..we are in Christ, in adam we were bad boys and girls, in Christ we are good boys and girls.

yeah, well you can blame Adam all you want and slice yourself into one part Adam and one part Perfect and claim to both have sin and have not sin and I will just say why not just be honest about it and there is no need to fancy dance past the fact?

God freely grants GRACE unmerited because of SIN to the UNGODLY.

God grants DIVINE MERCY ABUNDANT and ETERNAL to SINNERS because we NEED it.

Why would I seek to escape the fact of sin's presence and the basis of NEED and be made into some double talking dishonest half wit on the basis of faith?

It makes no sense for me to do that. It's not honest.

s

 

[Lion King]

If someone is claiming never to commit acts with the flesh which are considered sin, they are lying; and yet, if someone claims that God is no longer imputing their sin to them and they are therefore sinless, that would be Scriptural.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The only sinlessness a Christian has is in his spirit, and thats the gift of God and the act of God's Spirit. This is not referring to flesh. Our the flesh is still subject to the law of sin and death. [Rom. 7:23] But our spirit has been freed and serves the Law of Spirit. [Rom. 8:2]

Forgive me, but I believe these are the very teachings Jude warned us to stay far away from, many centuries ago:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:3-4



It's such a pity that some actually consider themselves sinless, even though their "flesh" continues to indulge in sin. Do not be deceived, our flesh is the temple of the LORD, and as such, we are all called to keep both our spirit and body from sin.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. 1 Corinthians 6:15-20

 

[Lion King]

who ever said to go out and steal? but our issue is faith alone, and james in acts 15, agreed with paul, and so no adding law to salvation, faith alone...IE..hehehe

On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

“What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

“You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” Luke 10:25-28


Do you keep those commandments?

 

[Frogster]

Oh please. Fantastic leaps off self made cliffs are not even relevant to the conversation. There is no such statement made by me.

Christ HUNG DEAD upon a CROSS to show us exactly where our SINFUL bodies are headed. He hung sinless and undeserving.

People 'mocked Him' as well when He did not save Himself from the Cross.

The Cross was His Faithful Measure. No sin is crossing over into Heaven, period.



As stated prior, faith should not lead us into deceptive delusions about sin and the fact of it's presence.



yeah, well you can blame Adam all you want and slice yourself into one part Adam and one part Perfect and claim to both have sin and have not sin and I will just say why not just be honest about it and there is no need to fancy dance past the fact?

God freely grants GRACE unmerited because of SIN to the UNGODLY.

God grants DIVINE MERCY ABUNDANT and ETERNAL to SINNERS because we NEED it.

Why would I seek to escape the fact of sin's presence and the basis of NEED and be made into some double talking dishonest half wit on the basis of faith?

It makes no sense for me to do that. It's not honest.

s

again, the fact is all were condemend in adam, read rom 5, so all are justified in Christ, you can't ignore that fact, if you admit were were dead in adam, under condmenation, then you have to admit the oppsoite is true, in the last adam, or u r saying the last adam, was raised in corruption.


now just for the record, if we are not going to claim fault in adam, then we have to claim credit for what Christ did...


mull that over,,

just for the record, i never said i did not sin, but the headship argument of rom 5-6, proves that we have to be in Christ, free from sin, or else u r saying he was raised in sin. dead in adam, alive in christ.

 

[Frogster]

Forgive me, but I believe these are the very teachings Jude warned us to stay far away from, many centuries ago:

Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt compelled to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to God’s holy people. For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord. Jude 1:3-4



It's such a pity that some actually consider themselves sinless, even though their "flesh" continues to indulge in sin. Do not be deceived, our flesh is the temple of the LORD, and as such, we are all called to keep both our spirit and body from sin.

Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your bodies. 1 Corinthians 6:15-20

we are talking about the legal declaration of imputed righteousness, we all know that good works are a byproduct of being saved, but you talk about the byproduct, to avoid the truth, righteousness imputed, and that can only that of Christ 2 cor 5;21, 1 peter 3;18, the just for the unjust, by faith alone.

we are talking about that, not the byproduct which are good works we do, which by the way, if we say we are just by works, the bible says we boast. it is by grace, not works, titus chapter 3.

 

[squint]

again, the fact is all were condemend in adam, read rom 5, so all are justified in Christ, you can't ignore that fact, if you admit were were dead in adam, under condmenation, then you have to admit the oppsoite is true, in the last adam, or u r saying the last adam, was raised in corruption.

There is no escape from the fact that we 'have sin' froggy. Some believers can actually state this fact as a fact and 'be IN TRUTH.' Those who can't are categorically lying and dishonest and are not 'in Truth' because they are LYING.

just for the record, i never said i did not sin,

Have is a present tense statement of fact frog. Not something you 'used to do' but are now ONLY SINLESS. There are many forms of the subtleties of deception in play on this fact. You just deployed one of many. Others will say, yeah, they sin from time to time. That claim too is a claim to sneak past present tense 'have sin.'

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That is from 'having sin' present tense. Not from sin you 'used' to do and have or 'sin' maybe done from time to time in the future but are 'sinless' in between those events.

Sin is present tense HAVE and we can't say we don't HAVE and be 'in Truth' because that's a LIE.

s

 

[Frogster]

There is no escape from the fact that we 'have sin' froggy. Some believers can actually state this fact as a fact and 'be IN TRUTH.' Those who can't are categorically lying and dishonest and are not 'in Truth' because they are LYING.


Have is a present tense statement of fact frog. Not something you 'used to do' but are now ONLY SINLESS. There are many forms of the subtleties of deception in play on this fact. You just deployed one of many. Others will say, yeah, they sin from time to time. That claim too is a claim to sneak past present tense 'have sin.'

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That is from 'having sin' present tense. Not from sin you 'used' to do and have or 'sin' maybe done from time to time in the future.

Sin is present tense HAVE and we can't say we don't HAVE and be 'in Truth' because that's a LIE.

s

why won't you acknowledge romans 5? if we were totally dead and unrighteous under that headship, all the time, day after day, beyond our control, then what are we in the second adam, the new dominion?

you have to admit, that the last adam, our new man is perfect home, or u r saying christ was raised in sin, totally violating romans 6, the heart of our doctrine as Christians.


5;17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

 

[Frogster]

There is no escape from the fact that we 'have sin' froggy. Some believers can actually state this fact as a fact and 'be IN TRUTH.' Those who can't are categorically lying and dishonest and are not 'in Truth' because they are LYING.
Have is a present tense statement of fact frog. Not something you 'used to do' but are now ONLY SINLESS. There are many forms of the subtleties of deception in play on this fact. You just deployed one of many. Others will say, yeah, they sin from time to time. That claim too is a claim to sneak past present tense 'have sin.'

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That is from 'having sin' present tense. Not from sin you 'used' to do and have or 'sin' maybe done from time to time in the future but are 'sinless' in between those events.

Sin is present tense HAVE and we can't say we don't HAVE and be 'in Truth' because that's a LIE.

s

i just figured it out!

really, no joke, you don't realize u have a spiritual body, u don't understand the already, but not yet paul taught, it is as though you are looking back in time, under law, seeing the old creation..

now i understand...bro, that is what i mean, the law will connect u to the flesh...the past, u gotta see u r raised, leave the flesh on the cross, we are raised to a new life, read rom 6;4...newness of life..not old

 

[Lion King]

we are talking about the legal declaration of imputed righteousness, we all know that good works are a byproduct of being saved, but you talk about the byproduct, to avoid the truth, righteousness imputed, and that can only that of Christ 2 cor 5;21, 1 peter 3;18, the just for the unjust, by faith alone.

we are talking about that, not the byproduct which are good works we do, which by the way, if we say we are just by works, the bible says we boast. it is by grace, not works, titus chapter 3.

This does not change the fact the we are not justified by faith alone, but by love also:

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

_ _ _ _

Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked. 1 John 2:3-6

 

[squint]

why won't you acknowledge romans 5?

Any claimant of 'no sin present' remains a dishonest statement and not truth.

Paul didn't say he used to have 'evil present' with him or that he may have 'evil present' with him from time to time in the future.

He said he had 'evil present' with him. He didn't DODGE that fact.

Neither did John.

And dodge past this fact results in 2 inevitable conclusions.

1. Sinless from time to time
2. Sinless period

Neither of those claims are credible or true nor were they even promised.

if we were totally dead and unrighteous under that headship, all the time, day after day, beyond our control, then what are we in the second adam, the new dominion?

We are advised not to let sin reign in our 'mortal body' because why? It is there, present to REIGN as in 'have, present tense.'

you have to admit, that the last adam, our new man is perfect home, or u r saying christ was raised in sin, totally violating romans 6, the heart of our doctrine as Christians.

Your conclusion that the fact of having sin somehow means Christ was raised in sin is an imagination inserted into the conversation that doesn't exist except in your own mind to deny the fact of 'having sin.'

That statement has nothing to do with the facts being discussed nor did I ever infer such a statement, period. Nor does sin as a present tense 'have' mean that we can not walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts sin/evil present 'always' requests.

s

 

[Frogster]

There is no escape from the fact that we 'have sin' froggy. Some believers can actually state this fact as a fact and 'be IN TRUTH.' Those who can't are categorically lying and dishonest and are not 'in Truth' because they are LYING.
Have is a present tense statement of fact frog. Not something you 'used to do' but are now ONLY SINLESS. There are many forms of the subtleties of deception in play on this fact. You just deployed one of many. Others will say, yeah, they sin from time to time. That claim too is a claim to sneak past present tense 'have sin.'

Romans 8:10
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

That is from 'having sin' present tense. Not from sin you 'used' to do and have or 'sin' maybe done from time to time in the future but are 'sinless' in between those events.

Sin is present tense HAVE and we can't say we don't HAVE and be 'in Truth' because that's a LIE.

s

it's right in you rom 8;10 quote..body dead..dead..try to see it as dead, but u r alive in Christ.

 

[Frogster]

Any claimant of 'no sin present' remains a dishonest statement and not truth.

Paul didn't say he used to have 'evil present' with him or that he may have 'evil present with him from time to time in the future.

He said he had 'evil present' with him. He didn't DODGE that fact.

Neither did John.

And dodge past this fact results in 2 inevitable conclusions.

1. Sinless from time to time
2. Sinless period

Neither of those claims are credible or true nor were they even promised.

We are advised not to let sin reign in our 'mortal body' because why? It is there, present to REIGN as in 'have, present tense.'

Your conclusion that the fact of having sin somehow means Christ was raised in sin is an imagination inserted into the conversation that doesn't exist except in your own mind to deny the fact of 'having sin.'

That statement has nothing to do with the facts being discussed nor did I ever infer such a statement, period. Nor does sin as a present tense 'have' mean that we can not walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts sin/evil present 'always' requests.

s

due..we know we carry a body of flesh, i can't fly..

but you r not understanding where we live spirutally, forget the body,,

 

[Frogster]

Any claimant of 'no sin present' remains a dishonest statement and not truth.

Paul didn't say he used to have 'evil present' with him or that he may have 'evil present' with him from time to time in the future.

He said he had 'evil present' with him. He didn't DODGE that fact.

Neither did John.

And dodge past this fact results in 2 inevitable conclusions.

1. Sinless from time to time
2. Sinless period

Neither of those claims are credible or true nor were they even promised.

We are advised not to let sin reign in our 'mortal body' because why? It is there, present to REIGN as in 'have, present tense.'

Your conclusion that the fact of having sin somehow means Christ was raised in sin is an imagination inserted into the conversation that doesn't exist except in your own mind to deny the fact of 'having sin.'

That statement has nothing to do with the facts being discussed nor did I ever infer such a statement, period. Nor does sin as a present tense 'have' mean that we can not walk in the Spirit and not fulfill the lusts sin/evil present 'always' requests.

s

u r totally avoiding me on rom 5.

 

[Lion King]

i just figured it out!

really, no joke, you don't realize u have a spiritual body, u don't understand the already, but not yet paul taught, it is as though you are looking back in time, under law, seeing the old creation..

now i understand...bro, that is what i mean, the law will connect u to the flesh...the past, u gotta see u r raised, leave the flesh on the cross, we are raised to a new life, read rom 6;4...newness of life..not old

You do not have a spiritual body...nobody has been raised from the dead to live forever, yet.