Is belief enough to be saved?

[squint]

Which is circular logic. The only proof of itself is itself.

That's the attempt you use. Factual observations are what they are.

In the case of observation, many will attempt to claim always, ever and only sheep works. And that attempt will be made on all sides of the aisle.

As a matter of fact I can probably say that's probably not the case.

Has nothing to do with 'circular logic.'

Something you believe could be a fact. How you show it to be, so far, is based on circular logic.

The 'probably not the case' is open and observable, particularly when applied personally first. Has nothing to do with circular logic.

I could guess the right answer in maths, but they ask me to show how I got the number.

Uh huh. And faith shouldn't require us to lie to ourselves either.

That's not circular logic. At worst it's a 'just-so' statement, or a truism

Anyone with a masters or above in math will tell you that formulas tend to get both more complex and less stable when more knowledge is applied.

That's why it's good to humble oneself and look to 'the Church'

You are welcome to claim that if your church leads you to believe you always, only and ever do sheep works, then that is true. I don't live that way.

Which is still a repeat of a statement of circular logic.

Circular logic would seem to be the place you're trying to land on.

Jesus himself says "Not everyone" but those that do his will. How one does his will is up for debate

Same observation applies. If you want to claim you always, ever and only do and perform His Perfect Will and 'the church' has led you to that conclusion what do you really expect me to say?

I will say this. I don't find much fellowship in denial, deception, false conclusions and dishonesty and then try to deem that 'faith' or 'faithful' under anyone's assembly or surmised authority.

s

 

[Frogster]

While I can appreciate you citing massive amounts of scripture if the result you are trying to claim in such citings is that you have no sin, what can I say other than that effort it is an attempt to dodge the question with a truthful answer.

but scripture says, sin will have dominion under law, not grace in rom 6;14. Why? Why would sin dominate under a command system, that says not to sin? So the bottom line, romans 7, just shows someone under law, so u can talk all about sin dwelling present and all that, but u r just talking a romans 7 life, and that is a fact.

 

[Frogster]

Well, that's a two time dodge.

The fact is a believer saying they 'have no sin' is by definition 'not in Truth.'

So these matters are not always just a matter of just belief, but of speaking 'truthfully and honestly.'

No one who speaks dishonestly can really claim to be a believer 'in Truth.'

s

stop saying "dodge", she is trying to have a coherent talk here. She is making a sound scriptural argument here.

 

[Frogster]

Good point, “...But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”

All doctrine must be spiritually discerned and understood too or else we are just quoting scripture legalistically. God's word is profitable for doctrine not the other way around.

 

[Frogster]

That's why I made the observation on 'sin' as the thread starter appeared to link the matter of belief to works, and my observation on works is that we can not say we 'have' no sin and be 'in Truth.'

There is certainly a simple basis of measure to start on the subject of 'belief with works' with that 'fact' on the table. It tends to put 'works' into quick focus.

s

but law arouses sin, as per rom 7;5, prove me wrong.

so you just show the sin law conjunction.

so we must now conclude, the more one talks about sin, the more one is under?????

 

[Frogster]

I'm sorry, but this does not make sense whatsoever. How is one justifed?

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24


We are only justified if we do the LORD's will, and not before...

then why didn't james want to add law to the churches in acts 15, if we are not justified by faith alone? if they didn't want the mosaic law, that covers all. And you can't post one verse from Paul, to prove your point, apul who says the total opposite in several passages, and council meeting, that had the james u quote agreeed with paul in acts 15.

 

[Lindas Place]

Any believer who reads Matt. 25 and has not figured out that they personally do both goat works and sheep works is deceived.

s

I agree, and the difference between those on the right (the blessed) and those on the left, (the cursed) is not their works… the difference is the blessing and the curse.

Romans 4:5-8
5 However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7 “Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him.”

Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." 11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law; because, "The righteous will live by faith." 12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.;

 

[Lindas Place]

stop saying "dodge", she is trying to have a coherent talk here. She is making a sound scriptural argument here.

agree...

 

[squint]

but law arouses sin, as per rom 7;5, prove me wrong.

You can claim you dodge 'goat works' by any measure you try to spin. I don't find that attempt credibly truthful by anyone or any measure.

so you just show the sin law conjunction.

so we must now conclude, the more one talks about sin, the more one is under?????

Oh, you mean if we have an honest view and speak of it that somehow decimates your claims? You can talk about the fact or dodge it like a trooper draping GRACE over GOAT works, which is quite 'honestly' what you cheer for here everyday.

It won't MATTER to the fact or change the fact.

I don't find those attempts credible, truthful or faithful in the least of measures.

s

 

[Frogster]

agree...

Hi Linda!

 

[Frogster]

You can claim you dodge 'goat works' by any measure you try to spin. I don't find that attempt credibly truthful by anyone or any measure.



Oh, you mean if we have an honest view and speak of it that somehow decimates your claims? You can talk about the fact or dodge it like a trooper draping GRACE over GOAT works, which is quite 'honestly' what you cheer for here everyday.

It won't MATTER to the fact or change the fact.

I don't find those attempts credible, truthful or faithful in the least of measures.

s

you talk, but u can't refute the clear text. Said with the umost respect, and a great big hug.

why were passions aroused by the law, and it says sin was dead apart from law, and sin used the command in 7;8 and 7;11. Shall i go on?


Now, what happens to people, who walk under law?

 

[squint]

you talk, but u can't refute the clear text. Said with the umost respect, and a great big hug.

Your continual attempt is to say 'I have no sin' and if you do, it's justified.

Fact is, sin is never justified and we 'all' have it, period.

why were passions aroused by the law, and it says sin was dead apart from law, and sin used the command in 7;8 and 7;11. Shall i go on?

By the measure of 'law' or the measure of 'works' the identical fact is still on the table. All the claims of GRACE unto me hasn't changed the fact of having sin.

The very basis of the receipt of Grace and Divine Mercy is THAT FACT.

To speak dishonestly about the fact is not and can not be coherent or truthful by any measures attempted.

s

 

[Lindas Place]

Hi Linda!

Hey! Glad you’re here…

 

[Lindas Place]

If someone is claiming never to commit acts with the flesh which are considered sin, they are lying; and yet, if someone claims that God is no longer imputing their sin to them and they are therefore sinless, that would be Scriptural.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The only sinlessness a Christian has is in his spirit, and thats the gift of God and the act of God's Spirit. This is not referring to flesh. Our the flesh is still subject to the law of sin and death. [Rom. 7:23] But our spirit has been freed and serves the Law of Spirit. [Rom. 8:2]

 

[squint]

If someone is claiming never to commit acts with the flesh which are considered sin, they are lying

Ya think?

Of course that would be a deceptive and dishonest statement.

s

 

[Frogster]

If someone is claiming never to commit acts with the flesh which are considered sin, they are lying; and yet, if someone claims that God is no longer imputing their sin to them and they are therefore sinless, that would be Scriptural.

2 Corinthians 5:17-21
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!
18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation:
19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.
20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God.
21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

The only sinlessness a Christian has is in his spirit, and thats the gift of God and the act of God's Spirit. This is not referring to flesh. Our the flesh is still subject to the law of sin and death. [Rom. 7:23] But our spirit has been freed and serves the Law of Spirit. [Rom. 8:2]

yup...it says a new man, not an old man....

 

[Frogster]

Hey! Glad you’re here…

u too!

 

[squint]

yup...it says a new man, not an old man....

Well, then comes about from some this bizarre little dance that tries to cut themselves into various pieces so they can speak truthfully that they 'have sin' but that somehow when they are cut to pieces they DON'T.

lol with all of that as if the fact of having sin is eradicated by those attempts to slice themselves into body, soul and Perfect Spirit.

You is you no matter how you slice you to play it both ways.

s

 

[Frogster]

Well, then comes about from some this bizarre little dance that tries to cut themselves into various pieces so they can speak truthfully that they 'have sin' but that somehow when they are cut to pieces they DON'T.

lol with all of that as if the fact of having sin is eradicated by those attempts to slice themselves into body, soul and Perfect Spirit.

You is you no matter how you slice you to play it both ways.

s

r u going to refute the romans 7 post?

all u prove with your "sin dwelling present" sentence that you always say, is life under law...

 

[Frogster]

Well, then comes about from some this bizarre little dance that tries to cut themselves into various pieces so they can speak truthfully that they 'have sin' but that somehow when they are cut to pieces they DON'T.

lol with all of that as if the fact of having sin is eradicated by those attempts to slice themselves into body, soul and Perfect Spirit.

You is you no matter how you slice you to play it both ways.

s

the old man was adam, full of corruption, then what is the new man full of?

dude..