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Question for christians here

ViaCrucis

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...the bible that what put together by the council which voted on it in 4th century C.E.

Didn't happen.

The Council of Nicea did a lot of things. It set forth a statement of faith that stated the Son is of same-nature as the Father (in opposition to the Arian claim that the Son was a second or junior god and of similar or different nature), it settled the issue over when to celebrate Pascha (Easter), and it dealt with minute areas of clerical discipline.

However, the issue of the biblical canon didn't arise during the Council. In none of the official documents which we have from the Council and in none of the historical accounts concerning the Council make any mention of the biblical canon.

The Biblical Canon was still a work-in-progress after Nicea, evident from later 4th and 5th century codices.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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razeontherock

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He was absolutely thrown away, if you go by orthodox christianity. Just throw all your trash onto Jesus, go out and sin, and it's all dandy, right?

:doh: That has NEVER been Orthodox Christianity.

After all, christianity is all about faith and not works, so you can just believe and get your get out of hell free card as long as you repent before you die.

I'm quite sure every christian believes Jesus is savior. And that goes right along side saying he died to pacify the anger of god against them.

You're making a really good case against "Evangelicals /ism." I never saw any reason for all the fuss before, but WOW :lost:

This stuff is totally out in left field.
 
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razeontherock

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The Jews of 1st century C.E. believed hell was a purgatory or purification of the soul for a time. It did involve flames and torment, but it was not forever.

True! So whyizzit you don't recognize that churchianity has gone astray on this point?
 
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ShiningBecky

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:doh: That has NEVER been Orthodox Christianity.



You're making a really good case against "Evangelicals /ism." I never saw any reason for all the fuss before, but WOW :lost:

This stuff is totally out in left field.

That's because I used to be one, so I know all about it from my own experience!

But what is the alternative? Selective christianity? Or orthodox christianity, aka "dead, religious" churches? That's even worse!!!
 
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ShiningBecky

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True! So whyizzit you don't recognize that churchianity has gone astray on this point?

In my understanding, christianity was corrupt not even 100 years after the death of Jesus! If that is true, then who knows what is true about it then?

The bible wasn't even compiled until, what 5th century, according to the above poster? That is not a reliable guide then to faith!
 
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razeontherock

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aren't you just picking whatever you want to believe and leaving the rest?

No. I'm not. There are uncomfortable and harsh realities in this life. Those things that don't line up with G-d, or logic, or common sense, gotta go. And what's left standing, is a cohesive view of Scripture, with all apparent contradictions resolved. And only decades later did I discover EO, and have yet to find any substantial difference in doctrine, from what I had already surmised on my own. I think that says a LOT for Truth! Then factor in that their history had no killings, witch hunts, etc. And that their adherents today are both knowledgeable about Scripture, and maintain a good Spirit even under difficult situations ...

There is Truth to be found. You've exposed some errors, and obviously that is upsetting, but it can be a step towards liberty! And the errors you've found don't mean that every word of Christianity throughout history is wrong
 
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ShiningBecky

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No. I'm not. There are uncomfortable and harsh realities in this life. Those things that don't line up with G-d, or logic, or common sense, gotta go. And what's left standing, is a cohesive view of Scripture, with all apparent contradictions resolved. And only decades later did I discover EO, and have yet to find any substantial difference in doctrine, from what I had already surmised on my own. I think that says a LOT for Truth! Then factor in that their history had no killings, witch hunts, etc. And that their adherents today are both knowledgeable about Scripture, and maintain a good Spirit even under difficult situations ...

There is Truth to be found. You've exposed some errors, and obviously that is upsetting, but it can be a step towards liberty! And the errors you've found don't mean that every word of Christianity throughout history is wrong

Yes i agree. That's why I had to get rid of the bible itself! It denied common sense, logic and God, in my understanding of who he is anyway. :)

I don't believe any one church has "THE TRUTH" and those that claim to most surely do not. If it helps you, that's wonderful. Just don't condemn me to hell because I don't go to your church.

For me though, I would not be able to join a church like that. It would be too lifeless and dry for my tastes. I need a lively church, full of people my own age, not people old enough to be my grandparents! LOL
 
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razeontherock

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So God purposely makes himself appear flawed, human, emotional and limited for us?

YES! It's called - literary technique. He reaches down to our level. Yes, that is condescending; consider what's being done here! There is no other way ...
 
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razeontherock

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For someone who raised the dead, walked on water and healed the blind, you would expect a little more in the way of writings.

The simple fact is that anybody writing anything positive or supportive of Christ or Christianity, was Christian by definition. So, what would they write to dare to add to what was readily accepted as Holy Scripture? (The Gospels, Epistles upon their delivery) And things people might write, were being hunted up and used as evidence at trials
 
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razeontherock

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The responses you get from God in the Bible mirror that of a Jewish male living in those days. Now why is that?????

Because that's who He was talking to, and what they could accept. He leads us one step at a time, too ...

You don't return runaway horses to the corral by riding straight into them as they stampede; you come up alongside them and nudge them little by little til you get them where they need to be.
 
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Harry3142

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Shining Becky-

There are some scholars who believe that the New Testament books were all written decades after the life of Christ. But they base their opinions on their own bias (the circular argument) rather than on the evidence at hand. The actual evidence indicates that the three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), Acts of the Apostles, and all of St. Paul's epistles were completed prior to 62 AD, with the other books completed within a few years. Here are two sources of evidence:

www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html

www.christiancadre.org/topics/dating_nt.html

As for secular historians of Jesus' time mentioning him in their accounts, you're operating under the idea that there was freedom of expression and freedom of speech, neither of which existed under the rule of imperial Rome. If a historian wanted to write history without being selected to be a lion's next meal, he toed the party line. This meant that the only person he recorded as being divine was the emperor himself.

As for Jesus' death being the means whereby God 'threw him away', you've adopted the attitude that his death was a victory for those who wanted to kill him. But it wasn't. Instead, it was a victory for Jesus himself, and even could be considered one of his miracles. The person who took Jesus' life was Jesus:

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father. (The Gospel of St. John 10:14-18,NIV)

That's why the centurion was so shaken when he witnessed Jesus' death (Mark 15:39). That's also why Pilate was so surprised to hear that Jesus was already dead that he insisted on confirmation before he would release his body (Mark 15:42-45). The romans were so familiar with how long it took victims to die on a cross that they would even gamble on it. But Jesus had died days earlier than they expected him to. What they had wirnessed was not their victory, but instead his departure, and they realized it. He had fulfilled the mission, so it was time for him to return to God.

As for God's being cruel, we need to remember that we are not referrring to another human being when we are referring to God. God is a spirit, and is also The Author of Justice. And his justice demands absolute perfection. There's no such thing as being good enough or having the good deeds outweigh the bad ones; either we're perfect, or we're doomed. One sin in an entire lifetime is akin to having a million-gallon water supply, and then adding one drop of a highly toxic chemical into it, thereby rendering the entire water supply lethal.

But God is also compassionate. We cannot measure up to his requirements for righteousness if left to our own devices, and he knows that. So instead of writing us off as condemned, he himself did what we could not do, namely, made us perfect:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which God requires of us is a righteousness which is equal to his own. And through the rescue mission which God himself laid the groundwork for, and then carried out with the help of his Son, Jesus Christ, he has enabled us to obtain that righteousness. We can't earn it through our own actions, because we're not perfect. But what we could not earn for ourselves God earned for us, and now is willing to give us if only we ask him for it.

And how are we to react? Would a person whose life was saved by another person go to that person's home, break his windows, slash the tires on his car, and set his house on fire? Of couse not. Likewise those of us who have accepted the righteousness which God has made it possible for us to obtain show our gratitude by endeavoring to do what he wants of us. We don't cooperate with him because we think that we're earning points with him through doing it. We don't cooperate with him because we think we can augment his righteousness by adding to it our own efforts. And we don't cooperate with him in order to hold on to our salvation; it was given freely, and it is ours. We cooperate with him because we are grateful for what he has done on our behalf. He didn't have to save us, but he chose to do so. And that's to his credit.

You may choose not to accept this. But you must also recognize that there are those of us who have.
 
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ShiningBecky

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Shining Becky-

There are some scholars who believe that the New Testament books were all written decades after the life of Christ. But they base their opinions on their own bias (the circular argument) rather than on the evidence at hand. The actual evidence indicates that the three synoptic gospels (Matthew, Mark and Luke), Acts of the Apostles, and all of St. Paul's epistles were completed prior to 62 AD, with the other books completed within a few years. Here are two sources of evidence:

www.bible-researcher.com/muratorian.html

www.christiancadre.org/topics/dating_nt.html

As for secular historians of Jesus' time mentioning him in their accounts, you're operating under the idea that there was freedom of expression and freedom of speech, neither of which existed under the rule of imperial Rome. If a historian wanted to write history without being selected to be a lion's next meal, he toed the party line. This meant that the only person he recorded as being divine was the emperor himself.

As for Jesus' death being the means whereby God 'threw him away', you've adopted the attitude that his death was a victory for those who wanted to kill him. But it wasn't. Instead, it was a victory for Jesus himself, and even could be considered one of his miracles. The person who took Jesus' life was Jesus:

I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me - just as the Father knows me and I know the Father - and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life - only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father. (The Gospel of St. John 10:14-18,NIV)

That's why the centurion was so shaken when he witnessed Jesus' death (Mark 15:39). That's also why Pilate was so surprised to hear that Jesus was already dead that he insisted on confirmation before he would release his body (Mark 15:42-45). The romans were so familiar with how long it took victims to die on a cross that they would even gamble on it. But Jesus had died days earlier than they expected him to. What they had wirnessed was not their victory, but instead his departure, and they realized it. He had fulfilled the mission, so it was time for him to return to God.

As for God's being cruel, we need to remember that we are not referrring to another human being when we are referring to God. God is a spirit, and is also The Author of Justice. And his justice demands absolute perfection. There's no such thing as being good enough or having the good deeds outweigh the bad ones; either we're perfect, or we're doomed. One sin in an entire lifetime is akin to having a million-gallon water supply, and then adding one drop of a highly toxic chemical into it, thereby rendering the entire water supply lethal.

But God is also compassionate. We cannot measure up to his requirements for righteousness if left to our own devices, and he knows that. So instead of writing us off as condemned, he himself did what we could not do, namely, made us perfect:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:19-26,NIV)

The righteousness which God requires of us is a righteousness which is equal to his own. And through the rescue mission which God himself laid the groundwork for, and then carried out with the help of his Son, Jesus Christ, he has enabled us to obtain that righteousness. We can't earn it through our own actions, because we're not perfect. But what we could not earn for ourselves God earned for us, and now is willing to give us if only we ask him for it.

And how are we to react? Would a person whose life was saved by another person go to that person's home, break his windows, slash the tires on his car, and set his house on fire? Of couse not. Likewise those of us who have accepted the righteousness which God has made it possible for us to obtain show our gratitude by endeavoring to do what he wants of us. We don't cooperate with him because we think that we're earning points with him through doing it. We don't cooperate with him because we think we can augment his righteousness by adding to it our own efforts. And we don't cooperate with him in order to hold on to our salvation; it was given freely, and it is ours. We cooperate with him because we are grateful for what he has done on our behalf. He didn't have to save us, but he chose to do so. And that's to his credit.

You may choose not to accept this. But you must also recognize that there are those of us who have.

I don't think sin is as bad as you make it out to be. Again you're just going by what you're taught, but I have no reason to believe it. What is sin? It's a mistake.

We all make mistakes and screw up. It's part of life. It's how we grow.

To say that God, whom you (probably) say is "all-loving and forgiving" is going to torture someone in hell for all eternity because of a few finite mistakes shows that your god cannot be loving or forgiving at all. It would actually make it the exact opposite of what you profess!! How is that for logic?

Your concept of justice is actually unbridled cruelty and vengeance. Don't call that love because it's as far from "love" as you can possibly get!! There is nothing just about it.

The entire story is contrived. God was the creator, the condemnor, and the punisher. Why not just forgive instead?????

I want to leave you with a thought. Since your god demands perfection, you must be perfect right? Well, I'm sure you must screw up every once in a while, yeah?? Well, what then? You're screwed if you sin once since your god demands absolute perfection in every area of life. I guess you're as doomed as you think I am.

Even if you think Jesus or God forgives you, ok. But knowing that your god is displeased with you all the time must really drive you crazy. I know it would me! You must constantly feel unworthy, bad about yourself and feel negative about life since you're constantly never good enough to your god. I think that is a very sad way to live. :( Just my thoughts.
 
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razeontherock

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That's because I used to be one, so I know all about it from my own experience!

But what is the alternative? Selective christianity? Or orthodox christianity, aka "dead, religious" churches? That's even worse!!!

I think the word here is "discernment." You're growing some of that, obviously. Don't buy the bull ^_^ Separate Truth from error. G-d is no respecter of persons, so I think I shouldn't be persuaded by a certain interpretation just because of who says it. Make sense?

The process develops character.

I don't see Christianity being a calling to isolationism, but I do see a great falling away happening, and true fellowship getting harder to come by. I also see some very genuine people across CF, who happen to not only be very informed about the Bible, but who have valid experience with G-d Himself, which is WAY more important in my book! And some of them are here, and you can probably tell who they are.

I think there's something to be said for taking some time to re-group, before worrying about which Church to "belong to." You must admit, you're due for more than just slight changes, yes? You have a pretty long list of legitimate concerns, valid questions, and you should be recognizing there's some work to get to the bottom of all that.

May I suggest thanking G-d that there are people here, willing and able to help you with that, for all the right reasons?
 
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ShiningBecky

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Because that's who He was talking to, and what they could accept. He leads us one step at a time, too ...

You don't return runaway horses to the corral by riding straight into them as they stampede; you come up alongside them and nudge them little by little til you get them where they need to be.

Meanwhile in the real world, the pages of the old testament talks about God smiting people on every page! LOL ;)
 
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ShiningBecky

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I think the word here is "discernment." You're growing some of that, obviously. Don't buy the bull ^_^ Separate Truth from error. G-d is no respecter of persons, so I think I shouldn't be persuaded by a certain interpretation just because of who says it. Make sense?

The process develops character.

I don't see Christianity being a calling to isolationism, but I do see a great falling away happening, and true fellowship getting harder to come by. I also see some very genuine people across CF, who happen to not only be very informed about the Bible, but who have valid experience with G-d Himself, which is WAY more important in my book! And some of them are here, and you can probably tell who they are.

I think there's something to be said for taking some time to re-group, before worrying about which Church to "belong to." You must admit, you're due for more than just slight changes, yes? You have a pretty long list of legitimate concerns, valid questions, and you should be recognizing there's some work to get to the bottom of all that.

May I suggest thanking G-d that there are people here, willing and able to help you with that, for all the right reasons?

I like your attitude, but from my experience here, most christians are very much literalists and inerrantists who worship the Bible, not God. Last I heard, tongues were of the devil, prophecy died when God did... I mean, when the Bible was finished. LOL And you're going to hell if you're a woman preacher. You get the gist.

Did I mention suffering being godliness and poverty being a blessing, while God hates prosperity?
 
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razeontherock

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In my understanding, christianity was corrupt not even 100 years after the death of Jesus!

This is an area I'd like to look into more myself. On what do you base this year 133 conclusion?

If that is true, then who knows what is true about it then?

The bible wasn't even compiled until, what 5th century, according to the above poster? That is not a reliable guide then to faith!

My convictions are mine, and I certainly don't wish to deprive you of the process of forming your own; but I will point out there are some flaws in this thinking here. I would ask you where you come up with these ideas? That's more of an introspective question, but if you feel like discussing it here it might prove interesting.

We can establish Paul. We can establish the 4 Gospels. We can establish the contents of our 66 book Bible. Less certain is trying to eliminate other books from it, that others accept. Let me spell out how:

we know the Church met in the Temple, daily, from the first Pentecost to it's destruction 70AD. We know they worshiped Liturgically; i.e., what you're calling "dead Churches." We know the primary criteria for what later got termed "the Bible," was what was read in Church, during Liturgical worship. We know different Churches read different scrolls, that we now call books of the Bible, and that no one Church had our entire NT.

From this we can logically conclude that anybody trying to alter the Gospels, would've been called on the carpet by the whole crowd, because everybody knew it by heart. Ok so we do have a later addition here and there. Doesn't that tell us it was no significant change to what was taught anyway? Or just ignore those small portions of text added later if you want, big deal.

Paul was accepted by the other Apostles, specifically because he knew what they knew, which he could only have learned from the Lord Himself. Quite the commendation, don't you think? PLUS, everything Paul taught is established in the Law of Moses. I have a thread that would give you an intro to that, but it sure is long, and dry, and dusty. Lots of little details to put together before you can form a picture out of it, but when you do you see Paul's message right there, way back in Moses!

So who actually penned what book of the NT is irrelevant, and when it was Canonized is too. In fact, the EO never did. Why would they? (How's that for a perspective?) A little tidbit you might find interesting: Hebrews was most likely written by a woman. It's also the most intellectual book of the NT.

Now about this crazy notion of Paul having been a misogynist ... ^_^ someday we should straighten that out, but I'd say that's not your primary concern right now. Or is it? Do you truly not see G-d continuously advancing our species closer to equal rights, for all? And we're not there yet, you'll notice ...
 
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razeontherock

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I don't believe any one church has "THE TRUTH" and those that claim to most surely do not. If it helps you, that's wonderful. Just don't condemn me to hell because I don't go to your church.

For me though, I would not be able to join a church like that. It would be too lifeless and dry for my tastes.

You'll notice I have a non-denom icon. I've never even seen an EO building. Please don't think I have some exclusionary type doctrine, such as you suggest.
My Church is a little storefront, in it's first year at this location. Personally, I've never known an individual Church to make it past the 5 year mark, corruption free. One way this Church is pure, is services are so basic, there's nothing going on anyone could object to ^_^ Some would call that "minimalist."

EO itself has a few things like what you allude to here that I'm not comfortable with. Their mystics, don't get bogged down in such things. Their deeper teachings, are what G-d has always shown me via His Word. I came onto CF fully expecting to find out where I had gone wrong, and instead I got confirmation that the original Truth I had been seeking all along, is what I've encountered. So I hope you can understand it breaks my heart to hear you assert that the original and pure Faith is lost forever or somehow unobtainable?
 
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ShiningBecky

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You'll notice I have a non-denom icon. I've never even seen an EO building. Please don't think I have some exclusionary type doctrine, such as you suggest.
My Church is a little storefront, in it's first year at this location. Personally, I've never known an individual Church to make it past the 5 year mark, corruption free. One way this Church is pure, is services are so basic, there's nothing going on anyone could object to ^_^ Some would call that "minimalist."

EO itself has a few things like what you allude to here that I'm not comfortable with. Their mystics, don't get bogged down in such things. Their deeper teachings, are what G-d has always shown me via His Word. I came onto CF fully expecting to find out where I had gone wrong, and instead I got confirmation that the original Truth I had been seeking all along, is what I've encountered. So I hope you can understand it breaks my heart to hear you assert that the original and pure Faith is lost forever or somehow unobtainable?

I didn't say it was unattainable. Just that we can't use the bible alone (sola scriptura) to determine the truth. And I don't think tradition is the answer either.

At least it's nice to hear that not all christians are married to bible literalism and "turn or burn" threats. I mean theology. LOL
 
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razeontherock

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Even if you think Jesus or God forgives you, ok. But knowing that your god is displeased with you all the time must really drive you crazy. I know it would me! You must constantly feel unworthy, bad about yourself and feel negative about life since you're constantly never good enough to your god.

Harry has a deep and living relationship with God. I don't know how he might point out the difference between his actual experience and your assumptions, but the closest I've ever come to seeing Jesus Himself was all about what you're saying here. He was impressing upon me one area of my life that was out of line, and out of control. And He was smiling at me.

'Nuff said?
 
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