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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
Question for christians here
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Tzaousios
Αυγουστινιανικός Χριστιανός
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Again with the death threats. That's not very nice you know. This is why nobody listens to christians.
Listen, if you think it's "justice" to send anyone to hell, let alone a good person who earnestly is seeking after the truth and God, then I don't think your god is worthy of worship but is a jerk.
There's nothing loving in anything you said. It's so ironic that you quote "love" but only offer hate instead.Talk about hypocrisy of the highest order!!
Have you interacted with a member named Blueforest or Patroklos on this site?
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The bible was written, edited, changed and altered many times through history and we know this because there are no originals to read. Some of the stories have been disproven by scholars, scientists and archeologists. For instance Moses could not have written anything since he lived before the hebrew alphabet existed!! But you won't hear that in any church!
There could be a hell. I don't think it's fire and brimstone though. Probably a state of darkness, loneliness or whatever. I don't think a "God of love" would send anybody there, despite what your religion says. I think God loves everyone, regardless of their religious beliefs.
I see your faith is: Seeking. You will not find life in any other religion!
You are in great delusion and you are deceived
, I am praying for you. 
Yes Yahuwah loves everyone regardless of their religious beliefs, but that doesn't mean he's not loving because people end up in hell.
No the bible haven't been changed, and altered, and no it hasn't been disproven. That's lies from Satan, to confuse and mislead. You need deliverance from these delusions. It's a trap, to go on seeking what man (scientists) have to say, rather than God's word which say:
2 Timothy 3:16
Every Scripture is God-breathed (given by His inspiration) and profitable for instruction, for reproof and conviction of sin, for correction of error and discipline in obedience, [and] for training in righteousness (in holy living, in conformity to God's will in thought, purpose, and action),
I've experienced this aswell, Satan has tried to set me up against Yahuwah the most high many times, with lies and deceit, like he himself did, which was the cause for his fall! I believe it's a common tactic for Satan to make us question Yahuwah's goodness, and so. It's a soul trap. You have to understand that Yahuwah is beyond our comprehension, and Yahushuas love for us is beyond our comprehension too!
Look at what our precious Yahushua did on the cross! So that we could come to Yahuwah! He loves us whatever we do, how can one not believe that he is love? There's no greater love than that!
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Atonement by substitution is your only hope for reconciliation with God, but since you reject it, what do you plan to do about your sin?
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ViaCrucis
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I feel as though I should draw up a standard post describing the history of Satisfaction Theory and how it isn't the sole view of Christianity vis-a-vis the Atonement.
As a subscriber to Christus Victor Theory (with particular emphasis on Recapitulation and God's intimate participation in our human nature) it's getting difficult typing out nearly the same post time and again.
Here's a rough overview of differing theories of Atonement within Christianity, important if one is going to understand that Penal Substitution is not the universal position of the Christian Church and has never even been the dominant view (and is in fact a rather recent position).
-CryptoLutheran
As a subscriber to Christus Victor Theory (with particular emphasis on Recapitulation and God's intimate participation in our human nature) it's getting difficult typing out nearly the same post time and again.
Here's a rough overview of differing theories of Atonement within Christianity, important if one is going to understand that Penal Substitution is not the universal position of the Christian Church and has never even been the dominant view (and is in fact a rather recent position).
-CryptoLutheran
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I have no reason to believe the god you identify in the bible is real. The bible is not evidence of anything by itself.
I think you have (christians) created a god after your own image and devices, which explains why god in the bible gets angry all the time, demands blood, gets frustrated, does not know everything, can be defeated by iron chariots and often changes his mind.
A transcendental, omniscient, omnipotent God would not do those things. How can you prove your god is real to me?
I'm listening.
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And how do we know what Jesus was like?
Do we use the gospels of Thomas or Mary Magdalene, or just the ones the church voted on in their canon? Is it the Jesus of the Calvinists, the Jesus of the Catholic church or the Jesus of the gnostic church? What about the "Christ consciousness" that people talk about?
There seem to be a lot of Jesuses around.
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It's too bad he didn't write anything. We could have had all this stuff sorted out a long time ago!! You'd think he might've known all the chaos his death would have caused with all the confusion over understanding it and all.
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You're right. And this is why concepts like vicarious redemption and penal substitution have their limits, and their opponents.
How about Jesus as burden bearer?
How about Christus Victor?
How 'bout Savior?
You can look up terms, but it's the simplicity of the Gospel that has the Power.
Surely you don't think He was "thrown away?"
"And declared [to be] the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead" (Romans 1:4)
He was absolutely thrown away, if you go by orthodox christianity. Just throw all your trash onto Jesus, go out and sin, and it's all dandy, right?
After all, christianity is all about faith and not works, so you can just believe and get your get out of hell free card as long as you repent before you die.
I'm quite sure every christian believes Jesus is savior. And that goes right along side saying he died to pacify the anger of god against them.
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The reality of spiritual things, including God cannot be proven. I agree, much of the Bible is incorrect and incompatible with a loving Creator.
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ebia
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Indeed. Do your scholarly work and make the best judgement you can. I would recommend NT Wright's "Christian Origins and the Question of God" series, but read the other perspectives as well.ShiningBecky said:
The canonical gospels and Paul are much closer in time to the historical Jesus than Gnostic and other texts, in time, in their Jewishness, and in a number of other ways. Start with Mark in a really goid translation (Lexham is growing on me for Mark as it keeps most of the rough edges) and let it's questions be your questions.
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I think everyone here is glad you're asking these questions, but you should recognize that rather than asking questions, you're making assertions.
"Most Christians" have no bearing on my Faith, as you have already noticed. We have nothing to fear from any of these questions, and many before us have plumbed their depths. This Ray is on solid Rock. To follow that analogy, you're irritated by some sand in there somewhere uncomfortable.
We can point you to where the shovel is ...
What do you know of hell, as taught by Jews of Jesus' day? Because He never specified anything different about it. This tells me they had that much right. And it is not Dante's inferno!
The Jews of 1st century C.E. believed hell was a purgatory or purification of the soul for a time. It did involve flames and torment, but it was not forever.
This is in line with what people who have had near death experiences describe. Most do not say hell is eternal, despite christian doctrine. And hell exists for the reformation of the soul, not its eternal torture. If God is really all-loving as most believe, he would never throw away a spirit made after his own image for all eternity.
The crux of the matter is though, the christian god is not all-loving, but all-vengeful instead. (Eternal torment pretty much proves this.) His wrath is actually greater than his love, in christianity. This is why Rob Bell was lambasted by most fundie christians for speaking out against this tyrannical picture of God.
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I think you can read the gospels and see Jesus who said God is Good and said the will of God is summed up in loving God and your neigbor.
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The proof is in the bible. Paul said that there were 7 continents. Zechariah prophesied nuclear bombs in detail. Just one of the many things.
You are deceived by Satan, and are in delusion, I'm praying for you to see the light.
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I agree God will not torture people. I don't believe God ever kills anyone or hurts them in this life or the next.
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I have seen the light, but I'm not here to save your soul. I don't think anyone can do that for you.
Do you really think that someone saying there were 7 continents (where was this mentioned again?) proves anything?
The bible itself is full of contradictions, cruelty and absurd stories. At best, you can read it as "purely a spiritual book" and it might have some value. But to take it literally... oh my goodness! I didn't do that for the last five or so years of my christian walk!!
I still believe in God though, in some form of another. But my God is bigger and greater than revenge and demanding blood from goats and sheep (or his son).
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Maybe, but according to christians, "Jesus talked about hell more than anyone else" so this Jesus is bent on eternally torturing people too, like his father.
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