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Question for christians here
- Thread starter ShiningBecky
- Start date
lucaspa
Legend
Those do not say that God considers females inferior or God is prejudiced against them. It does say the men who wrote those passages thought women are inferior and were prejudiced.
And they did. Paul was a misogynist. What you are doing is taking isolated verses. Instead, you need to look at all the Bible. That is what Methodists did when considering Paul's passage about women not being preachers. This is the result: Why Do United Methodists Ordain Women When the Bible Specifically Prohibits it?
Please read it. It is just as invalid for those challenging Christianity to take verses out of context as it is for people promoting it.
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lucaspa
Legend
I think it is possible to at least appear "selfless" and sin. If a person is doing things only for other people to boost their pride in their own selflessness, that would cause a problem, don't you think?
As for acting out of "purely self interest", that would depend on whether their actions harm another. Last weekend I acted purely for my self interest and bought sushi at the grocery store. My daughter hates sushi, so there was no chance I bought that for her! Was I committing a sin? I don't think so.
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ebia
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as slaves, not inherent valueShiningBecky said:
common but incorrect interpretation on all counts.
Most of those are from the letter to Timothy. Timothy is in Ephesus; home of the Artimus cult. What Paul is countering is the new equality women have in Christ turning into role reversal in one of the few cities where that was a likely possibility.
Paul list women in his greetings and lists of significant leaders.
As Saul he was on his way to Damascus to arrest men and women - that would be absurd if women were not leaders of the movement.
In a culture where women could not be witnesses God chose a woman to be the witness to the most important event since the creation of the world. (John 20)
In a culture where women shouldn't be in the room where the men are talking business, Jesus affirms Mary if Bethany as an apprentice Rabbi.
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The bible is written by men and some of it is wrong. That does not mean Jesus was wrong when He said God's will is summed up in loving God and man. I think Paul wandered onto the right path when he wrote that we are all one in Christ--no slave nor free, no Jew nor Greek, no male nor female. That I believe to be true.
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Everyone that thinks for themselves picks and choses. All the rest are relying on someone else who is picking and chosing. There is no one who does not pick and chose or rely on someone who picks and choses. There are some who admit to picking and chosing and some who deny it, but none who do not or do not rely on someone who does. On your point about having the truth--none of us have the truth perfectly. James 3:2 We all make many mistakes in our theology. We walk by faith and not by sight. We will not be gifted with eternal life based on perfect understanding of God.
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Harry3142
Regular Member
I don't think sin is as bad as you make it out to be. Again you're just going by what you're taught, but I have no reason to believe it. What is sin? It's a mistake.
We all make mistakes and screw up. It's part of life. It's how we grow.
To say that God, whom you (probably) say is "all-loving and forgiving" is going to torture someone in hell for all eternity because of a few finite mistakes shows that your god cannot be loving or forgiving at all. It would actually make it the exact opposite of what you profess!! How is that for logic?
Your concept of justice is actually unbridled cruelty and vengeance. Don't call that love because it's as far from "love" as you can possibly get!! There is nothing just about it.
The entire story is contrived. God was the creator, the condemnor, and the punisher. Why not just forgive instead?????
I want to leave you with a thought. Since your god demands perfection, you must be perfect right? Well, I'm sure you must screw up every once in a while, yeah?? Well, what then? You're screwed if you sin once since your god demands absolute perfection in every area of life. I guess you're as doomed as you think I am.
Even if you think Jesus or God forgives you, ok. But knowing that your god is displeased with you all the time must really drive you crazy. I know it would me! You must constantly feel unworthy, bad about yourself and feel negative about life since you're constantly never good enough to your god. I think that is a very sad way to live.
Either you didn't read my entire message (#153) ot you didn't understand it, so I'll quote one of the Scriptures again:
But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all hae sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished - he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. (Romans 3:21-26,NIV)
The righteousness which God requires of us God provides to us in exchange for our putting our faith in Jesus. It's his righteousness given to us freely as a result of our accepting the means whereby he earned the righteousness for us. If what we did, or did not do, were the yardstick for our obtaining eternal life, none of us would make it. But God has seen fit to replace our unrighteousness with his own righteousness. His only requirement is that we accept the means which he has used in order to earn it for us (Christ's sacrifice) as efficacious to us.
As for God being all-loving and all-forgiving, no, I do not believe in that God. The God I believe in had his Son become both the blood sacrifice that cleansed us of our sins and the scapegoat that removed them from us (see Leviticus 16:1-22, for a comparison). That would be an example of his love toward us. He is also the God who ordered the total annihilation of those societies which had turned to the worship of idols. That would be an example of the God who insists that his people obey him. The God we see in the Old Testament and the God we see in the New Testament are the same being. He is willing to 'go the extra mile' with those who endeavor to follow him, but he will not endure forever those who show him contempt.
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Those do not say that God considers females inferior or God is prejudiced against them. It does say the men who wrote those passages thought women are inferior and were prejudiced.
And they did. Paul was a misogynist. What you are doing is taking isolated verses. Instead, you need to look at all the Bible. That is what Methodists did when considering Paul's passage about women not being preachers. This is the result: Why Do United Methodists Ordain Women When the Bible Specifically Prohibits it?
Please read it. It is just as invalid for those challenging Christianity to take verses out of context as it is for people promoting it.
Well at least you can see the differences between what God thinks and what the bible actually says. That's a good start!
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Yeah, I don't believe in that god. Even when I was a christian and went to church, I didn't really accept that god. I don't know what to tell you...
The god you just described is not real. He's a product of ancient culture filled with superstition, need for retribution, anger and hatred. Such a caricature of God is no more God than my shadow is myself. It was just a fabrication or an image of the real and true living God. Not a blood-thirsty, archaic beast who demands blood, who says submit to me or die.
That god is not the devil, nor is it real. Any more than Superman or Batman is real. Just because ancient men believed it was real does not make it so. The god you spoke of sounds a lot like middle eastern men from 3000 years ago. Why do you think that is the case????
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Harry3142
Regular Member
You need to read message #78. Without that you don't know where I'm coming from.
To say that God is love is accurate. But to say that God is all-loving is inaccurate, because it's the equivalent of saying that love is God. Also to say that God is forgiving is accurate. But to say that he is all-forgiving is inaccurate, because it's the equivalent of saying that forgiveness is God.
God has these attributes, but he is not limited to these attributes. An example would be my saying that I have seen The Atlantic Ocean, which I have. But I cannot say that The Atlantic Ocean is only that part of it which I have seen. I saw only its surface, not its depths. Nor did I see the numerous creatures that inhabit it.
This is the problem when we try to describe God, We have the tendency to limit him to what we want him to be, and that is a serious error on our part. We cannot say that God has any limitations himself, but instead has many facets to his nature.
As I said in Message #78, the laws and commandments were originally intended as a means whereby a people could come together in order to form a cohesive society, one where each member of the society could feel secure among the others, and together they could defend themselves against their enemies.
But the concept of heaven and hell did not exist at that time insofar as the Hebrew nation was concerned. To sin was to weaken the entire societal structure. And in the time in which they lived, that societal structure needed to remain strong if it was to survive those who desired to destroy it.
And as for St. Paul's being a chauvinist, for the time in which he lived he was one of the most liberal teachers. If you look at the schematics of the temple at Jerusalem, you will find an area called 'the women's area' there. And that is exactly what it was. Only men were permitted inside the temple; women were forbidden to even read Torah. Instead, while the men worshipped inside the temple, the women were confined to that specific part of the temple grounds.
I saw an example of this myself in 1965, when I was invited by the rabbi to attend a conservative Jewish service. We filed in at 9:00 AM, and the doors to the sanctuary were locked behind us. For the next 2.75 hours those doors remained locked. I looked around me and realized that there were no women or children there. I found out later that the children were attending Hebrew school, and the women were attending their own social gathering on the other end of that building, so that they would be unable to even hear what the rabbi was saying. The rabbi was from Europe, and what i was witnessing was the way that temple services had been conducted since the time of Christ, and earlier.
Yet 2,000 years ago St. Paul made the sole stipulation for women attending the services alongside men that they not interrupt the service by talking loudly during it. That went against everything he had been taught as a Jew. Had he acted in accordance with strict Jewish protocol, none of those women would have been permitted to be there.
As for wives submitting to their husbands, you left out the verse that follows it: Husbands, love your wives and do not be harsh with them (Colossians 3:19). And he said this at a time when a noted rabbi stated that a husband was entitled to divorce his wife if he found a woman prettier than she was. The common belief was that wives were property, rather than people. But St. Paul said that husbands were obligated to love their wives.
One of the problems that we have with biblical interpretation is the fact that we fail to identify to whom those Scriptures were written, but instead try to apply them directly to us. For example, there is a passage in Mark 9:43-47, which has caused much confusion. It's the one concerning cutting off your own hand, foot, or eye. But we need to realize that when Jesus was telling his followers this, he was talking with Jews whose law was so strict concerning self-mutilation that they weren't even permitted to get tattoos, muchless sever a body part. So the instuction must be seen as purely metaphorical, since Jesus himself taught that they were to obey the laws and commandments (Matthew 5:17-20).
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Believe the Impossible
Believer
Becky,
Firstly, you never answered the question I first asked you:
That is really all any of us needs to know, otherwise the discussion is futile, especially since you are a professed former Christian which means that you have all the knowledge it takes to live in the faith of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross to save you and 10 years in ministry also shows us you have no excuse to ask the questions you do. Also, your statement:
So, I find it hard to sit here and believe that you are some how lacking or are some naïve and baby Christian in need of guidance. All I see here is pure hatred for God and all those who believe in Him; that you are bigoted against our faith and have made it your purpose to degrade both.
As Christians, we are told to spread the gospel but not because we are bigoted against unbelievers, but because it is what the Word of God tells us. If you dont like the message or its consequences you are free to leave this forum and to go live your life, yet here you are full of rage and hate against something you state you no longer believe. WHY? Why are you so angry at something you dont believe in?
So, I ask you once again, do you wish to become a disciple of Christ OR is it that you wish to destroy the faith of others? Is that what you wish to do here, Becky, destroy the faith of others?
Firstly, you never answered the question I first asked you:
That is really all any of us needs to know, otherwise the discussion is futile, especially since you are a professed former Christian which means that you have all the knowledge it takes to live in the faith of Jesus Christ and His work on the cross to save you and 10 years in ministry also shows us you have no excuse to ask the questions you do. Also, your statement:
So, I find it hard to sit here and believe that you are some how lacking or are some naïve and baby Christian in need of guidance. All I see here is pure hatred for God and all those who believe in Him; that you are bigoted against our faith and have made it your purpose to degrade both.
As Christians, we are told to spread the gospel but not because we are bigoted against unbelievers, but because it is what the Word of God tells us. If you dont like the message or its consequences you are free to leave this forum and to go live your life, yet here you are full of rage and hate against something you state you no longer believe. WHY? Why are you so angry at something you dont believe in?
So, I ask you once again, do you wish to become a disciple of Christ OR is it that you wish to destroy the faith of others? Is that what you wish to do here, Becky, destroy the faith of others?
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Sketcher
Born Imperishable
You're changing the first question. If Jesus didn't come and die, that wouldn't indicate that God wouldn't have loved people, let alone that he hated them enough to want them to burn in Hell. The death and resurrection of Jesus is the greatest testimony of God's love for humanity, but it's not the only testimony if his love for us. If God had simply delayed the coming of Jesus for example, he would still of course love us as he loved people in Old Testament times. In any case, there's no use hating the Creator, particularly when he has no one to rival him in power. The smart thing to do is to get on his good side, however you can. The natural thing to do is to be in awe of him, since the creation is so grand. Fortunately, in addition to these motivations, he did in fact send Jesus to pay for all our sins. The invitation to have yours paid for is open to you, as all who come to him will be saved. As long as you're still breathing, you have a chance.
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