Question for christians here

[ShiningBecky]

Maybe you're misjudging that.

I doubt it. I spent over ten years in the church in ministry.

 

[ebia]

That's irrelevant since Jesus is not the father.

but he is God incarnate.

[quote{
Jesus is not even in the story, so he is beside the point completely here.[/quote]
well he is kind of in the story, because the story is the explanation of why he's partying with all the wrong people.

The father in the story does not resemble the god of christian, the father. God in christianity is actually nothing like a good father, which is why christians use legal terms to describe our "relationship" to god. He's a Judge, also the jury and executioner. A father is not a judge (at least it shouldn't be).

um, as a father, yes he needs to be sometimes. Sometimes injustice and harmful behaviour has to be addressed. "that has to be given back" is the voice of a judge.

The courtroom analogy quoted constantly by christians shows God to be a judge - and a very stern one at that.

Quite the opposite if you read the full picture carefully instead of believing what the culture tells you it says.

A judge who demands complete and total perfection or he'll send you to hell.

that's not the biblical picture, it's the distortion. It's the picture you'll get from a lot of Christians, but it's not authentic.

So to get around his own made-up rules, he executes his son instead. As long as somebody is killed, he is happy.

again, a common misrepresentation of what is going on. In that instance quite a modern, western, one.

 

[ShiningBecky]

but he is God incarnate.


Jesus is not even in the story, so he is beside the point completely here.
well he is kind of in the story, because the story is the explanation of why he's partying with all the wrong people.


um, as a father, yes he needs to be sometimes. Sometimes injustice and harmful behaviour has to be addressed. "that has to be given back" is the voice of a judge.


Quite the opposite if you read the full picture carefully instead of believing what the culture tells you it says.


that's not the biblical picture, it's the distortion. It's the picture you'll get from a lot of Christians, but it's not authentic.


again, a common misrepresentation of what is going on. In that instance quite a modern, western, one.

I don't believe what "culture" tells me. I'm going by what churches teach and what the bible and message of christianity say.

So, you're saying "a lot of christians" are lying about God? If this faith is "the truth" then why are these some many contradictory views of who or what god is, how to get to him, what he is like, etc???

Culture says "god loves everybody" and he would never send anyone to hell. It denies there even is a hell, so I don't know what culture you are referring to. It's the christian who says all roads lead to hell except jesus (usually).

 

[ebia]

I doubt it. I spent over ten years in the church in ministry.

Doesn't count for much, I'm afraid. We tend to believe what our culture tells us, rather than what the text tells us. In this instance the text puts it very sharply - and leaves the ending open. The story is written to address exactly this attitude in Jewish/church leadership. In that sense if it were not from Jesus himself but written by Luke for the early church it's even sharper.

Christians with the attitude are exactly the older brother in the story. The story is deliberately open ended to ask "are you going to join in the party or not"? It can't say what happens to the older brother because there are always fresh older brothers to decide. Sadly many (most?) would rather sit outside and sulk - people like to be gatekeepers, refusing entry to those they think unworthy.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Doesn't count for much, I'm afraid. We tend to believe what our culture tells us, rather than what the text tells us. In this instance the text puts it very sharply - and leaves the ending open. The story is written to address exactly this attitude in Jewish/church leadership. In that sense if it were not from Jesus himself but written by Luke for the early church it's even sharper.

Christians with the attitude are exactly the older brother in the story. The story is deliberately open ended to ask "are you going to join in the party or not"? It can't say what happens to the older brother because there are always fresh older brothers to decide. Sadly many (most?) would rather sit outside and sulk - people like to be gatekeepers, refusing entry to those they think unworthy.

Not exactly. christianity teaches that people are unworthy by nature and by default. The people who think they're worthy are the biggest hypocrites around. In god's eyes, all are worthless and unworthy. I find that probably the most damaging thing about christianity overall. If taken to heart (which most christians don't) it could be very harmful to someone's personality and mental health.

 

[ebia]

I don't believe what "culture" tells me. I'm going by what churches teach and ... message of christianity say.

that is a culture.

So, you're saying "a lot of christians" are lying about God?

giving a false idea.

To be lying they need to know it's false.

If this faith is "the truth" then why are these some many contradictory views of who or what god is, how to get to him, what he is like, etc???

because people are willfully and accidentally fallible and stubborn. People like to be insiders and know there are identifiable outsiders. Many like to be gatekeepers - and they are often the vocal one's,...

[quoteCulture says "god loves everybody" and he would never send anyone to hell. It denies there even is a hell, so I don't know what culture you are referring to. It's the christian who says all roads lead to hell except jesus (usually).[/QUOTE]
there's more than one culture around. There's a culture inside churches as well as outside.

Now there is another side to the coin. The world is incredibly unjust. It does need the judge to act to restore justice. But remember two things wrt to judge metaphor:
1. there's no equivalent in biblical Jewish thinking to our criminal courts. All courts are civil. The primary objective is not punishment of a criminal but restoration for the victim.
2. Justice is a good thing.

 

[ChristianT]

Not exactly. christianity teaches that people are unworthy by nature and by default. The people who think they're worthy are the biggest hypocrites around. In god's eyes, all are worthless and unworthy. I find that probably the most damaging thing about christianity overall. If taken to heart (which most christians don't) it could be very harmful to someone's personality and mental health.

Actually, all people on their own are unworthy of heaven (presence with God) because of our sins. Imperfection cannot stand within the presence of perfection. God still loves us however. That's the whole point of the gospel of Jesus! He has forgiven us because of what Jesus did on our behalf. It's not too late to truly receive Him

 

[ebia]

Not exactly. christianity teaches that people are unworthy by nature and by default. The people who think they're worthy are the biggest hypocrites around. In god's eyes, all are worthless and unworthy. I find that probably the most damaging thing about christianity overall. If taken to heart (which most christians don't) it could be very harmful to someone's personality and mental health.

Only some streams of modern western protestantism descended from
Calvin etc teach that

The bible portrays people as fundamentally in God's image. That's the first thing it says about us - the context in which to read everything else. And it's that image that God wishes to restore in all of us.

 

[ViaCrucis]

You have nice ideas, but you're just one man. You don't represent what your religion or faith teaches. You're like a speck of dust in a junkyard (no offense LOL), I mean you may have attractive teachings like "everyone is god's child" or whatever, but that is not what most of christianity says. Most christians I have met say that the only way to become a child of god (through adoption) is through faith in Jesus Christ's death, etc. By nature, we're children of wrath and disobedience, your bible declares, doesn't it?

Fortunately those Christians with whom you have much experience don't get to speak on behalf of two thousand years of Christian teaching.

It is true that Scripture says that we are adopted by grace as children of God the Father.

It is also true that Scripture speaks of all mankind as God's offspring (St. Paul quotes the Greek poet Aratus in the affirmative),

"Yet He is actually not far from each one of us, for 'in Him we live and move and have our being'; as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we are indeed His offspring.'" - Acts 17:27b-28

Christianity is a lot bigger than what is often the noisiest expression one finds here in the United States.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[ShiningBecky]

Actually, all people on their own are unworthy of heaven (presence with God) because of our sins. Imperfection cannot stand within the presence of perfection. God still loves us however. That's the whole point of the gospel of Jesus! He has forgiven us because of what Jesus did on our behalf. It's not too late to truly receive Him

So God doesn't exist everywhere? That's not what I was taught.

What you just described is not "forgiveness" though. It is vicarious atonement or scapegoating. God punishes an entirely innocent person (supposedly) to acquit the guilty. Even though the old testament says in Exodus, God does not by any means clear the guilty. How do you explain these discrepancies?

I already "received" him. Then I woke up and realized I don't want to be with a god like the one christianity offers.

 

[Jonathan95]

But christians say only they are God's children, everyone else is a child of satan.

Also, why would you love someone who does not love you and wants to throw you in hell forever?

Any parent who thought that way toward me would be shunned for eternity because I deserve better from someone who supposedly brought me into the world and claims to "love" me.

Does he do that? We do it by our own choices.

Yes I'd love God, because he's God, the creator.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Not exactly. christianity teaches that people are unworthy by nature and by default. The people who think they're worthy are the biggest hypocrites around. In god's eyes, all are worthless and unworthy. I find that probably the most damaging thing about christianity overall. If taken to heart (which most christians don't) it could be very harmful to someone's personality and mental health.

Except Christianity doesn't teach that "all are worthless".

Christianity has always taught the inherent value and importance of all humanity. If Christianity taught we were all worthless then the fundamental Christian message of God's eternally, abiding and unconditional love for the world would be non-existent. And yet Christianity has always taught that God is love, that God loves the whole world, that God cares about every man, woman and child, and that the manifest declaration of this love comes in and through Jesus of Nazareth who forsakes Himself to being treated like a worthless thug in order to demonstrate God's compassion for mankind.

It's not Jesus dying to appease God's fuming anger; it's God, in Jesus, entering into our existence, participating in that existence, and willfully entering into the suffering and victimhood of the weak and the forsaken of this world. God, in Jesus, has identified Himself with the poor, the rejected, the weak and the unwanted. He has identified Himself with thieves, prostitutes, beggars, lepers, and tax-collectors.

Why? Because God's love is for the poor, the rejected and the unwanted; His love is for the thief, the prostitute, the beggar, the leper and the tax-collector.

Christianity does speak of the universal sinfulness of man. Why? Because in being honest with ourselves we find that we are unable to see ourselves as better than the very ones we would throw away and despise. And we throw our lot in with sinners, runaways, rejects, freaks, and the despised. We throw our lot in with them, because that's who God is for.

We can therefore not boast in ourselves, but only in God's mercy and kindness. We cannot imagine ourselves more worthy than anyone else.

To recognize oneself as a sinner is not to declare oneself as worthless, but to be honest with myself in all my faults and foibles. To recognize that I am weak, and frail, and that the good I want to do I fail to do and the bad that I seek to refrain from I continue to do. But in the Gospel I find that it is precisely for the sick that a Physician comes with medicine and compassion.

We should not despair, but rather rejoice. For even if the world regards us as unlovely and undesirable, we are lovely and desirable because we have been created in the image of God and are loved by Him--regardless of how often we fail and fall.

Yes, I am a screw up.
God loves screw ups.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[tangled]

Would you still love God if Jesus did not die for you? Yes or no is fine.

With the way my life was going, I probably would've killed myself...or gone insane. But yea, if I did kill myself, I probably would've still clung to God.

 

[Believe the Impossible]

ShiningBecky,

Hello to you! You say that you are lost and that is the way many people in this world feel. You also state that you were in ministry for 10 years; I would love to hear what that entails.

Also, if that is the case, then if we discuss this am I to base and direct it toward someone who believes in the Bible or do you consider yourself an unbeliever at this time?

I find it hard to understand how an unbeliever can judge, slander and point the finger at One who does not exist in their minds. Are there many Christians who are angry at God…you bet, but that can be reconciled with time, discussion and prayer. It’s one thing not to believe, but to judge and become angry with something one does not believe in is quite the enigma. So, I suppose I am asking if this is just anger that is directed at a God you believe in.

But, let’s talk about something even a struggling Christians or atheist can confirm from today and history past and that is the evil which prevails within much of the human race. And not just those who commit atrocities against other human beings, but even those who commit atrocities against animals.

We can all agree that mankind can be so evil that we can become frightened of them, the mere thought of them can give us nightmares. Look at all the slasher movies and look at all the inventive ways to which human beings can be tortured, mutilated and hated. And look at the people who pay good money to flock to such things. I find that Atheist feel so clever pointing the finger at God who would dare judge such human beings and then lop ‘good people’ in with them.

Ah, but we forget the atrocities of the heart, the tongue and the eyes. Are these not just as bad? Most of the serial killers admit that they spent quite a lot of time just fantasizing about what they wanted to do and it eventually led to them needing to actually commit these fantasies in real life in order to feel ‘peace’; same with child molesters and rapist. Are these innocent people being judged by God? Why does He tell us that just to ‘lust after another…in one’s heart’ is equally bad for us? Because it usually, by the statistical numbers, leads to one acting upon it. Our God is a wise God! Oh, the lustful desires of the madmen in the world, fantasizing their way into action.

How many ‘good people’ lust for the bodies of another, the death and wealth that comes from insurance policies, the failure at jobs, loves or parenthood, the jealousy, rage, envy deep within the heart. How we love to watch another stumble so that we feel better about ourselves. We are evil and if one is honest with themselves they, too, will admit they are evil or have been in thought alone. And to live with the knowledge of ourselves and what we have done even in our thoughts could drive us mad or even to revenge, murder, stealing. Problem is that we'd never know any of this just to look at someone else because it is all done within the heart and mind. On the outside they are such 'good people'. But, God sees it and God knew this about His creation and God gave us a way out and to live in peace. How terrible of Him.

How many of these ‘scum of the earths’ have never gotten caught or ever will? How many people care only about money and walk past a homeless person on the street? How many people flick the channel when the skin and bones children of the world are on the tv? How many people worship flawed human beings on a daily basis because of their beauty or bank account? And how many people choose to worship satan, literally, when his existence proves there must be a God?

People are spiritual creatures as well as flesh and blood and if they do not believe in the Christian God, they will invent one they do want to worship, we see it daily. Of course their own gods will be everything they need with no flaws or demands, right?

People forget who they are defending when they bash their Creator and hating Him does not remove His existence or what He can and will do for you despite the damning evidence of evil that resides within each of us.

God gave us the rules and the choice to love Him and the world wants nothing to do with Him. He stands back and allows mankind to pave their own way, their own rules and futures and look what it has gotten us. The evil in this world would never allow any type of utopia.

And as for torture, pain and wanting it for all the world, as you accuse God, I often wonder that if men could give such a torturous verdict against other men and women, would they use it? I have to answer honestly, yes, they would. Men would torture forever if they could and they’d televise it for pure profit to boot! And you know what else too; the people of this world would pay to see it. They'd probably have live cams presenting the slow, ongoing tortuous acts and betting as they did. They'd link to it, post it and bootleg it. Tell me it wouldn't happen!

You said, ‘those who live in glass houses…’, so what about you Becky; how do you rate in the big scheme of things??? Are you a sinner? Are you going to die one day? And if you stand before the most glorious Creator in the end, what will you say to Him?

Because you can believe you will disappear out of existence, that is your right, but what if you are wrong? He only asks that you simply believe, love Him and others; is that really too much to ask?

 

[simonpeter]

Except Christianity doesn't teach that "all are worthless".

Christianity has always taught the inherent value and importance of all humanity. If Christianity taught we were all worthless then the fundamental Christian message of God's eternally, abiding and unconditional love for the world would be non-existent. And yet Christianity has always taught that God is love, that God loves the whole world, that God cares about every man, woman and child, and that the manifest declaration of this love comes in and through Jesus of Nazareth who forsakes Himself to being treated like a worthless thug in order to demonstrate God's compassion for mankind.

It's not Jesus dying to appease God's fuming anger; it's God, in Jesus, entering into our existence, participating in that existence, and willfully entering into the suffering and victimhood of the weak and the forsaken of this world. God, in Jesus, has identified Himself with the poor, the rejected, the weak and the unwanted. He has identified Himself with thieves, prostitutes, beggars, lepers, and tax-collectors.

Why? Because God's love is for the poor, the rejected and the unwanted; His love is for the thief, the prostitute, the beggar, the leper and the tax-collector.

Christianity does speak of the universal sinfulness of man. Why? Because in being honest with ourselves we find that we are unable to see ourselves as better than the very ones we would throw away and despise. And we throw our lot in with sinners, runaways, rejects, freaks, and the despised. We throw our lot in with them, because that's who God is for.

We can therefore not boast in ourselves, but only in God's mercy and kindness. We cannot imagine ourselves more worthy than anyone else.

To recognize oneself as a sinner is not to declare oneself as worthless, but to be honest with myself in all my faults and foibles. To recognize that I am weak, and frail, and that the good I want to do I fail to do and the bad that I seek to refrain from I continue to do. But in the Gospel I find that it is precisely for the sick that a Physician comes with medicine and compassion.

We should not despair, but rather rejoice. For even if the world regards us as unlovely and undesirable, we are lovely and desirable because we have been created in the image of God and are loved by Him--regardless of how often we fail and fall.

Yes, I am a screw up.
God loves screw ups.

-CryptoLutheran

Beautiful. Thanks! I hope this message changes a few hearts.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Except Christianity doesn't teach that "all are worthless".

Christianity has always taught the inherent value and importance of all humanity. If Christianity taught we were all worthless then the fundamental Christian message of God's eternally, abiding and unconditional love for the world would be non-existent. And yet Christianity has always taught that God is love, that God loves the whole world, that God cares about every man, woman and child, and that the manifest declaration of this love comes in and through Jesus of Nazareth who forsakes Himself to being treated like a worthless thug in order to demonstrate God's compassion for mankind.

It's not Jesus dying to appease God's fuming anger; it's God, in Jesus, entering into our existence, participating in that existence, and willfully entering into the suffering and victimhood of the weak and the forsaken of this world. God, in Jesus, has identified Himself with the poor, the rejected, the weak and the unwanted. He has identified Himself with thieves, prostitutes, beggars, lepers, and tax-collectors.

Why? Because God's love is for the poor, the rejected and the unwanted; His love is for the thief, the prostitute, the beggar, the leper and the tax-collector.

Christianity does speak of the universal sinfulness of man. Why? Because in being honest with ourselves we find that we are unable to see ourselves as better than the very ones we would throw away and despise. And we throw our lot in with sinners, runaways, rejects, freaks, and the despised. We throw our lot in with them, because that's who God is for.

We can therefore not boast in ourselves, but only in God's mercy and kindness. We cannot imagine ourselves more worthy than anyone else.

To recognize oneself as a sinner is not to declare oneself as worthless, but to be honest with myself in all my faults and foibles. To recognize that I am weak, and frail, and that the good I want to do I fail to do and the bad that I seek to refrain from I continue to do. But in the Gospel I find that it is precisely for the sick that a Physician comes with medicine and compassion.

We should not despair, but rather rejoice. For even if the world regards us as unlovely and undesirable, we are lovely and desirable because we have been created in the image of God and are loved by Him--regardless of how often we fail and fall.

Yes, I am a screw up.
God loves screw ups.

-CryptoLutheran

I don't have time to respond to everything now, and that is a good view. But the bible says the same I quoted earlier, that people are worthless. Romans 3:12 "All have turned away, they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good, not even one."

 

[Faulty]

What you just described is not "forgiveness" though. It is vicarious atonement or scapegoating. God punishes an entirely innocent person (supposedly) to acquit the guilty. Even though the old testament says in Exodus, God does not by any means clear the guilty. How do you explain these discrepancies?

Proverbs 17:15 also says that he who justifies the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. It's the same concept as if someone comes along and butchers your entire family and everyone you love, then stands before the judge and the judge says to the man, "I am a loving and forgiving, therefore you may go free."

Would you praise the judge for his compassion towards the murderer he just released, or would you protest, demanding justice, not only for the man who murdered your family, but also for the removal of the unjust judge? That judge who justifies the wicked would become an abomination to you.

And now in Romans 4:5, we find that God does indeed justify the ungodly, the very thing that is an abomination to Him. Why? Because justice is indeed served.

In the preceeding chapter of Romans, we find the problem, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" v23, this includes you.

And scripture tells us that in the past, God has overlooked a great many sins, v25.

And he did so because your punishment was willingly taken by another, because it's a punishment upon Jesus, through His blood and His sacrifice, that God demonstrated Hisjustice, the penelty of our sins, v24.

Hebrews 9 tells us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgivness of sins. The sacrifice of innocent animals, which you said you hated, is the symbol given to us to show us that it will take the blood of the innocent to cover the blood of the guilty, so we may recognize the sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf, being innocent, he took on our sin and our punishment for that sin.

That's the truth, and you may consider yourself unworthy of His sacrifice, instead choosing to pay the penelty for your sin yourself and rejecting what was done for you, but it is a very foolish thing to do, as it is the only hope you have.

 

[ShiningBecky]

Proverbs 17:15 also says that he who justifies the wicked is an abomination to the Lord. It's the same concept as if someone comes along and butchers your entire family and everyone you love, then stands before the judge and the judge says to the man, "I am a loving and forgiving, therefore you may go free."

Would you praise the judge for his compassion towards the murderer he just released, or would you protest, demanding justice, not only for the man who murdered your family, but also for the removal of the unjust judge? That judge who justifies the wicked would become an abomination to you.

And now in Romans 4:5, we find that God does indeed justify the ungodly, the very thing that is an abomination to Him. Why? Because justice is indeed served.

In the preceeding chapter of Romans, we find the problem, "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" v23, this includes you.

And scripture tells us that in the past, God has overlooked a great many sins, v25.

And he did so because your punishment was willingly taken by another, because it's a punishment upon Jesus, through His blood and His sacrifice, that God demonstrated Hisjustice, the penelty of our sins, v24.

Hebrews 9 tells us that without the shedding of blood, there is no forgivness of sins. The sacrifice of innocent animals, which you said you hated, is the symbol given to us to show us that it will take the blood of the innocent to cover the blood of the guilty, so we may recognize the sacrifice Jesus made on our behalf, being innocent, he took on our sin and our punishment for that sin.

That's the truth, and you may consider yourself unworthy of His sacrifice, instead choosing to pay the penelty for your sin yourself and rejecting what was done for you, but it is a very foolish thing to do, as it is the only hope you have.

Wait a minute! There is actually nothing just at all about a judge killing an innocent man in place of a guilty one! If any judge of the bench did that, everyone, including you christians, would have a moral outcry! Any judge who willfully lets a convicted rapist go while sentencing an innocent non-rapist to prison or death is not fit to be a representative of justice! I don't think you honestly know what justice is, to be saying things so absurd!

Scapegoating is a horrible thing and it is an unwillingness to even take responsibility for our own actions. Every time you blame someone else for your flaws, you are scapegoating. Throwing Jesus away like some rag is morally bankrupt and totally irresponsible too!!

 

[Believe the Impossible]

Wait a minute! There is actually nothing just at all about a judge killing an innocent man in place of a guilty one! If any judge of the bench did that, everyone, including you christians, would have a moral outcry! Any judge who willfully lets a convicted rapist go while sentencing an innocent non-rapist to prison or death is not fit to be a representative of justice! I don't think you honestly know what justice is, to be saying things so absurd!

Scapegoating is a horrible thing and it is an unwillingness to even take responsibility for our own actions. Every time you blame someone else for your flaws, you are scapegoating. Throwing Jesus away like some rag is morally bankrupt and totally irresponsible too!!

You are misinformed, for Jesus is God, and God is Jesus, and He can choose to give His life for another as He so wishes, just as, I hope, you'd give your life for your own child. It is the most awesome sacrifice any one of us could do for the love of another. For one who was in ministry for 10 years, I'd say you need to brush up on your knowledge of the Bible and what it actually states.

Those who debate here and now know what God expects of them and they now have no excuse, except that of their own 'scapegoating'. Mankind very well better own up to his/her own atrocities before pointing the finger at their Creator, who being perfect, all-knowing and love, is just, fair and righteous.

What judge would allow a criminal to go based on the fact that, outside of their atrocity, they were more or less a good person? Would not the judge laugh in his face? No, the judge will put him into prison and in most cases, throw away the key without all the mamby pamby, "Honestly, I'm really a good person, I just had too much to drink and didn't mean to run over and kill that woman and child."

People can say they are 'good', but we are all sinners who deserve the death penalty in contrast to a perfect and holy Creator. When one can be honest enough with themselves in this point, only then can the realize the gist of the Word of God and the need for a Saviour who can clean them of their filth.

My goodness, look at this world without the rose-coloured glasses, you are defending all sorts of wickedness and lies and trying to justify it by blaming the Creator for the freewill of each one of us. The line in the sand has been drawn...pick a side for you cannot worship this world and God at the same time. You know the scriptures.

 

[Willy21]

Would you still love God if Jesus did not die for you? Yes or no is fine.

Yes

Bill