Manischewitz Kosher 4 Gentiles?!?

[Lulav]

I'm not a MJ, but even I can see a false choice being offered by you. As far as I understand, the essence of MJ is following of both-the Torah and the Christian Messiah.

Close, we keep the Torah and believe in the Jewish Messiah.

 

[jcpro]

 

[Henaynei]

I realize what the word is, I really don't want to get into a debate about it though.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be argumentative, just informative.

 

[Henaynei]

Oh, I don't mean any disrespect. The reason I say Christian Messiah is because only Christians consider him to be one.

By your definition, true.
But actually thousands of Jews, then and now, recognize/d His as The Jewish Messiah.

 

[Lulav]

Absolutely not, however, I don't think Yeshua was disobedient to God's commands, do you?

I have been trying to stress just that but you seem to not be listening. He ate only the foods that His Father said are clean. I think Visionary spoke about this. Defilement is different than eating what is abominable. What is sin? Sin is not obeying G-d. How do we obey G-d? We keep (live by) his commandments.

"Then he called the crowd again and said to them, ‘Listen to me, all of you, and understand: there is nothing outside a person that by going in can defile, but the things that come out are what defile.’ When he had left the crowd and entered the house, his disciples asked him about the parable.
He said to them, ‘Then do you also fail to understand? Do you not see that whatever goes into a person from outside cannot defile, since it enters, not the heart but the stomach, and goes out into the sewer?’

(Thus he declared all foods clean.)
​

And he said, ‘It is what comes out of a person that defiles. For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person.’ " Mark 7:14-23

And I say to you that you are failing to understand what he is saying. You must understand the context and who he was speaking to and also understand what I bolded in red is NOT what he said or meant.

It is recorded, I think in the mishnah that back then they believed that demons could hide under your fingernails. That is why they developed the hand washing ritual. And today we realize that these 'demons' are bacteria which makes us sick. Handling raw meat without washing, etc. Yeshua was speaking of evil intentions, which they misunderstood as being able to be ingested if you didn't wash. Food goes through the gastrointestinal system and then out the body, it does not go into the heart, or the mind. In other words the bacteria (demons) goes through and out into the toilet but does not effect the inclinations that would cause one to fornicate, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride.


I'll let the Lord reiterate here: "It is what comes out of a person that defiles. For it is from within, from the human heart, that evil intentions come: fornication, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride, folly. All these evil things come from within, and they defile a person."

Exactly, do you now see the difference?



Do you think Yeshua would have sent out His disciples to do what He would not have? I don't. And then there is the Scripture as found in Mark. It's quite clear.



Really? You think Samaria was part of Israel? We know for a fact that Yeshua went there and Scripture states that He sent the seventy-two out to every city and place He was going to and that He was sending them as lambs among wolves which meant they weren't going to just the Israelites.

I think you are mixing some passages together. Samaria was in the territory of Ephraim which was one of the two tribes, the double portion given by Israel (Jacob) to Joseph's sons, so Yes, it was. It was not considered Judea, but then it wasn't considered the Galilee either.

He was in fact on his way back to Galilee when he had to pass through Samaria. The well at which he stopped to drink at was a well of Jacob, the same Jacob, called Israel. The Samaritans considered Jacob their father.

The recording of the 72 never says they went to gentile cities, never. He told them not to speak to anyone on the roads, why was that? Yes, he says them were lambs among wolves, but you seem to forget who was occupying Judah and the surrounding areas at the time? The Romans!

Let's try this again: "Into whatever city you enter, and they receive you, eat the things that are set before you."

I am not the one not getting it. They were sent to Israel.

Yeshua said:

He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."

Did he lie? Or did he say that? Which means he was only going to go to the lost sheep of ISRAEL, and therefore he sent the 72 before him to the same lost sheep.

When he tells them:

"When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' 6 If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. 7 Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house.

What he is saying is that if this person, this Israelite is welcoming of the Shalom being brought to them, (from the prince of Shalom) then stay with them. These would be those who would not be so entangled in the gentile world as to not be keeping Kosher any longer.


Mark 7:14-23????????

Refer to my previous answer

Obedience is a great witness tool however, the dietary law is no longer still in effect, per Yeshua and obedience to it for the sake of salvation is wrong. Are you implying that it isn't? There are Christians, Jews and pagans. In Yeshua there is no wall of separation, however, I agree that there is God's call for believers to be separate from unbelievers. That has nothing to do with the dietary law.

There is no 'however'. Obedience is just that. You are saying it is no longer in effect but Yeshua never said it wasn't. Therefore you are being not only disobedient, but teaching others to do so also. He had something to say about that as well.

Matthew 5:19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

I think your problem with this is that you don't see salvation and love going hand in hand. Faith without works is dead. Saying you believe but do not obey is just paying lip service. "Lord didn't we cast out demons in your name?"

'I never knew you'



Who cares what Muslims do? Pagan dietary law is of no concern to us and should certainly have no impact on the Jewish community as the Muslim god is not the One True God.

You totally didn't understand what I was pointing to so I won't bother going into it. Maybe this will get through, if Muslims say they don't eat pork because it's in the bible not to eat pork and Jews say the same, how does it look that Christians say you can? Who's the pagan here? Or who is looking for all the world to see that they are pagan?

Observant Jews?....they had better be observant if they are still counting on obedience to the law for their salvation as opposed to accepting Yeshua HaMessiach. Considering Yeshua's words as found in Mark, those churches you find so disobedient, aren't. In Yeshua there is no Jew or Gentile; there's only Christians and they are one. Those people you are likening to the heathen anti-Christ Antiochus Epiphanes IV are your Brothers and Sisters in the Body of Yeshua. Romans 14:17-23 "For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking but of righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Whoever thus serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by me. So then let us pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding. Do not, for the sake of food, destroy the work of God. Everything is indeed clean, but it is wrong for anyone to make another stumble by what he eats. It is good not to eat meat or drink wine or do anything that causes your brother to stumble. The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."

I will save an answer to that to it's own post, so much , too much to address and correct.



I meant the Kosher dietary law. I also meant no disparagement toward anyone with food allergies; anaphylactic, hereditary/genetic etc. and I think that was clear.

Yes, I understand what you meant, what I was saying is if we can tell our host we can't have such and such because of those medical reasons, why is G-ds word not even equal to or above it as is should be on what we put into our mouths?

Not backwards at all if you accept God's word as found in Scripture.

And by that I take it you think that Jesus by his words made a pig clean? A lobster is no longer the cockroach of the sea? That we can eat anything?


There is no God mandated diet anymore in Yeshua. You can choose to be obedient to God's dietary law if you want to but it has no bearing on your salvation whatsoever per Yeshua.

Again, you equate obedience to salvation. Salvation comes from Him, Obedience comes from us.

Again, I was referring to dietary laws, not food allergies, hereditary or otherwise.

Again, can't you see that you are holding the one above the other? First my food has to be kosher, then Gluten free and then organic if possible.


So your post was really about the dietary law then and not your food allergies, hereditary or otherwise? I would think that diminishing or just flat not believing the words of Yeshua would be more along the lines of breaking the first commandment. As far as the Shema is concerned, I have only ever stated there is One True God, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That is not the whole Shema, but nevermind, you are not Messianic so we are talking around each other.

I am answering within your post as it is so long.

 

[Lulav]

Oh, I don't mean any disrespect. The reason I say Christian Messiah is because only Christians consider him to be one.

I understand.

Sorry, wasn't trying to be argumentative, just informative.

NP

By your definition, true.
But actually thousands of Jews, then and now, recognize/d His as The Jewish Messiah.

And this is the difference.

@jcpro - The Christian Messiah is not the Jewish Messiah.

One person, perceived by two different peoples. One got to write the history.

 

[Henaynei]

Lulav

 

[Jerushabelle]

I'm not a MJ, but even I can see a false choice being offered by you. As far as I understand, the essence of MJ is following of both-the Torah and the Christian Messiah.

I'm not offering anything. I'm not saying don't follow Torah and Messiach.

 

[Jerushabelle]

I have been trying to stress just that but you seem to not be listening. He ate only the foods that His Father said are clean. I think Visionary spoke about this. Defilement is different than eating what is abominable. What is sin? Sin is not obeying G-d. How do we obey G-d? We keep (live by) his commandments.

Yeshua's use of the word "defile" was the same as His Father's use of it.
Consider this:
"As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. 'Good teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ 'Teacher,' he declared, 'all these I have kept since I was a boy.'
Jesus looked at him and loved him. 'One thing you lack,' he said. 'Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"

Anything in there about dietary law? No. Yeshua is not going to say that it is what comes out of the mouth as opposed to what goes into the mouth that defiles (makes one unclean in God's eyes) and then say otherwise elsewhere nor is He going to misrepresent His Father. The dietary law is not salvific. If it were, Yeshua would have said so to the rich man. Yeshua didn't mislead the rich man and He hasn't misled us.

And I say to you that you are failing to understand what he is saying. You must understand the context and who he was speaking to and also understand what I bolded in red is NOT what he said or meant.

One thing I'm not failing to understand is that you feel we have the right to determine what is Scripture and what isn't. I mean, what you bolded in red is in all the translations and it is considered Scripture (God's breathed word) yet you have posted here that that's not what God has breathed. Additionally, are you determining that what God has plainly breathed is not what He meant? Whoa!!

It is recorded, I think in the mishnah that back then they believed that demons could hide under your fingernails. That is why they developed the hand washing ritual. And today we realize that these 'demons' are bacteria which makes us sick. Handling raw meat without washing, etc. Yeshua was speaking of evil intentions, which they misunderstood as being able to be ingested if you didn't wash. Food goes through the gastrointestinal system and then out the body, it does not go into the heart, or the mind. In other words the bacteria (demons) goes through and out into the toilet but does not effect the inclinations that would cause one to fornicate, theft, murder, adultery, avarice, wickedness, deceit, licentiousness, envy, slander, pride.

The implication here again is that we can't take God plainly at His word.

I think you are mixing some passages together. Samaria was in the territory of Ephraim which was one of the two tribes, the double portion given by Israel (Jacob) to Joseph's sons, so Yes, it was. It was not considered Judea, but then it wasn't considered the Galilee either.

He was in fact on his way back to Galilee when he had to pass through Samaria. The well at which he stopped to drink at was a well of Jacob, the same Jacob, called Israel. The Samaritans considered Jacob their father.
I am not the one not getting it. They were sent to Israel.

The recording of the 72 never says they went to gentile cities, never. He told them not to speak to anyone on the roads, why was that? Yes, he says them were lambs among wolves, but you seem to forget who was occupying Judah and the surrounding areas at the time? The Romans!

The Jews hated the Samaritans. BTW: that whole area was called Palestine at the time and yes it was under Roman rule. And yes, the Romans were somewhat wolfish weren't they?... probably why He told them not to speak to anyone on the roads. You don't think that Yeshua sent his disciples out to witness to all? The recording of the 72 does not identify all the cities they went to so Gentile cities are not out of the question especially since Isaiah records that Yeshua was to be a light to the Gentiles. Certainly though, they did go to Samaria because Yeshua went there.

Yeshua said: He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel." Did he lie? Or did he say that? Which means he was only going to go to the lost sheep of ISRAEL, and therefore he sent the 72 before him to the same lost sheep.

Did He lie? That is what I have been asking you! No, He could not have and would not have lied. Yet, even the dogs ate the crumbs that fell from His table.

When he tells them: "When you enter a house, first say, 'Peace to this house.' If a man of peace is there, your peace will rest on him; if not, it will return to you. Stay in that house, eating and drinking whatever they give you, for the worker deserves his wages. Do not move around from house to house."
What he is saying is that if this person, this Israelite is welcoming of the Shalom being brought to them, (from the prince of Shalom) then stay with them. These would be those who would not be so entangled in the gentile world as to not be keeping Kosher any longer

You're back to telling people what Yeshua meant instead of what He said. Interesting. There is no indication that the only homes the 72 would be staying at would be Jewish.

There is no 'however'. Obedience is just that. You are saying it is no longer in effect but Yeshua never said it wasn't. Therefore you are being not only disobedient, but teaching others to do so also. He had something to say about that as well.

Matthew 5:19 So if you break the smallest commandment and teach others to do the same, you will be the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But anyone who obeys God's laws and teaches them will be great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, Yeshua did declare all foods clean through Mark 7:18-19. He begins with, "Are you so dull?"

I think your problem with this is that you don't see salvation and love going hand in hand. Faith without works is dead. Saying you believe but do not obey is just paying lip service. "Lord didn't we cast out demons in your name?" 'I never knew you'

No one who has come to know and love the Lord and experience His grace has a problem seeing salvation and love going hand in hand.
It's true that faith without works is dead. This is also God's truth:
"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly." That means we don't make it out to do what it can't...save us. If you are implying with your posting of Matthew 7:21 that following the dietary law is salvific, you are in error.

You totally didn't understand what I was pointing to so I won't bother going into it. Maybe this will get through, if Muslims say they don't eat pork because it's in the bible not to eat pork and Jews say the same, how does it look that Christians say you can? Who's the pagan here? Or who is looking for all the world to see that they are pagan

Muslim's read the Quran. Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They worship a god called allah. Their god allah has no son and has a prophet named Muhammad. What they think and do is not and should not be of any import to Jews or Christians. What is of import to Jews is what commanded of them by God and their need to be obedient to that. What is of import to Christians, Messianics included, is that Yeshua became the pure sacrifice for sin and through Him we are reconciled to God. "Do not call anything impure that God has made pure." Why do we find it so hard to believe that if God can make sinners clean, he can make pigs clean too? And why do we look at our Brothers and Sisters in the Body and imply that they are pagan because they accept Yeshua's words?

And by that I take it you think that Jesus by his words made a pig clean? A lobster is no longer the cockroach of the sea? That we can eat anything

I believe Jesus/Yeshua as recorded in Mark 7:14-23.

Again, you equate obedience to salvation. Salvation comes from Him, Obedience comes from us.

No, I don't and yes, salvation is by Yeshua and we are called to be obedient, yet the dietary law is not salvific because Yeshua said it wasn't.

 

[Henaynei]

None of Torah is salvific - obedience is the product of love motivated by gratitude for selection and redemption.
But, G-d said that all the Torah was forever.
The G-d who gave Torah at Sinai is the same G-d who sweat blood in Gethsemine (sp?). One G-d.
This same G-d in whom there is no shadow or turning.
This same G-d clearly and specifically detailed in Torah what He designated as food.
This same G-d, when He was talking to Jews about food was talking about those things He had declared as food at Sinai.
Any other meats or items were not classified as food by Him. He did not call them food, because they ARE NOT FOOD.
G-d said Torah is forever
G-d said His designation of what is food for the Jews is forever
G-d said your salvation is forever
If He can cancel out one, say, what is food for Torah keepers, He can cancel any or all - and we are without hope
G-d forbid!

 

[Jerushabelle]

Originally Posted by Lulav

Think of this, observant Jews and Muslims honor G-d by not eating pork, yet Christians not only eat it but elevate it over other clean meats. I can't tell you how many Churches I've seen, especially of late, that have Ham Dinners or Pork Roasts. And it does not bring to mind a people obeying and loving the true G-d, but it brings to mind what the heathen anti-Christ Antiochus Epiphanies IV did when he went into The only place called the House of G-d and slaughtered and offered a pig on the altar, to Zeus.

​

You have apparently missed the connection I was trying to show you. And should we not care about all? Most Muslims are the offspring of Abraham. Here, this may help.

Nope. Didn't miss a thing. Show me the proof that most Muslims are the offspring of Abraham. Connect Muhammad to Isamael. You can't and neither can the Muslims.

Yes, obedient enough to believe that G-ds Torah is forever. As do I.

Then you had better be perfectly obedient to it because you are dismissing Yeshua and His words.

Sorry, that isn't true and Yeshua defiantly made a distinction.

"I came only for the lost Sheep of Israel"

So, you're saying the Gentiles don't figure into God's plan at all eh? And the prophet Isaiah was wrong too?

And he certainly would not walk into any of those churches and sit down and chow down on some pork roast or a BLT!

He might considering He would not call unclean what His Father had made clean.

So it was an abomination in G-ds eyes for Antiochus, but it's alright now for Christians to do it? Tell me how you perceive peace and joy in disobedience?

Once again, you are comparing Christians to pagan worshipers. I don't perceive peace and joy. I HAVE peace and joy in Yeshua.

Paul here was supposedly speaking to Gentiles, Gentiles he hadn't even met yet from what I've read and I don't need approval from Paul.

Never said anyone needs Paul approval. It's interesting to note, however, that Paul had the Lord's approval.

No, everything is indeed not clean. There is a list in the bible. The physiology of those animals has not changed. What was unclean for G-ds people 3,000 years ago has not miraculously by evolution (slow or fast) changed to be clean, neither have our bodies. A cow and sheep still chew the cud and a swine doesn't.

Apparently God's words to us through Mark aren't good enough? And when God says "Do not call unclean what God has made clean." we are supposed to tell Him He's joking, right?

As far as you considering it 'wrong' to make another stumble, why again, is man put before G-d? So you can eat your swine in secret, but not in front of someone that may stumble? How do you stumble? If I drink alcohol in front of an alcoholic then I could cause them to stumble and go off the wagon. So then if someone eats a bacon cheeseburger in front of me then I could stumble by thinking it's OK and eat one too. And I've stumbled into sinning.

Actually, it was God, not me who said it's wrong to make another stumble. I'm not concerned with whether I'm making a Jew stumble or not. He has the Law for his salvation. I have Yeshua and in Him I am free. The dietary law is not salvific.

No, not following G-ds commandments is sin. It's not about what we think about food, but what G-d thinks about it, after all he made the food and us as well.

If God has said "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." then who am I to argue with Him? If Yeshua said that it's not what goes into a mouth that defiles but what comes out, I am going to believe Him.

 

[mfaust]

None of Torah is salvific - obedience is the product of love motivated by gratitude for selection and redemption.
But, G-d said that all the Torah was forever.
The G-d who gave Torah at Sinai is the same G-d who sweat blood in Gethsemine (sp?). One G-d.
This same G-d in whom there is no shadow or turning.
This same G-d clearly and specifically detailed in Torah what He designated as food.
This same G-d, when He was talking to Jews about food was talking about those things He had declared as food at Sinai.
Any other meats or items were not classified as food by Him. He did not call them food, because they ARE NOT FOOD.
G-d said Torah is forever
G-d said His designation of what is food for the Jews is forever
G-d said your salvation is forever
If He can cancel out one, say, what is food for Torah keepers, He can cancel any or all - and we are without hope
G-d forbid!

Very well said!

 

[yedida]

Absolutely!
It would never Yeshua mind that some of the lost sheep of Israel would even consider putting on someone's dinner plate shellfish or pork! Therefore He could easily and in good conscience tell the disciples, "Whatever they set before you, that eat." Sheesh!!

 

[Lulav]

Yeshua's use of the word "defile" was the same as His Father's use of it.
Consider this:
"As Jesus started on his way, a man ran up to him and fell on his knees before him. 'Good teacher,' he asked, 'what must I do to inherit eternal life?' 'Why do you call me good?' Jesus answered. 'No one is good—except God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, you shall not defraud, honor your father and mother.’ 'Teacher,' he declared, 'all these I have kept since I was a boy.'
Jesus looked at him and loved him. 'One thing you lack,' he said. 'Go, sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.'"

Anything in there about dietary law? No.

And neither is there anything there about Salvation, which you seem to keep dwelling on and misinterpreting me as saying.
He listed 6 commandments, do you believe that's all there is?

Also note that he spoke not of having Salvation, but of having treasure in heaven. , An extra, a bonus. Doing the others would get him into heaven, this was to follow the spirit of the law of love. And he is answering the question of a specific man. Do you think that he would go through all the 100's of commandments that might apply to him?

Yeshua is not going to say that it is what comes out of the mouth as opposed to what goes into the mouth that defiles (makes one unclean in God's eyes) and then say otherwise elsewhere nor is He going to misrepresent His Father. The dietary law is not salvific. If it were, Yeshua would have said so to the rich man. Yeshua didn't mislead the rich man and He hasn't misled us.

One thing I'm not failing to understand is that you feel we have the right to determine what is Scripture and what isn't. I mean, what you bolded in red is in all the translations and it is considered Scripture (God's breathed word) yet you have posted here that that's not what God has breathed. Additionally, are you determining that what God has plainly breathed is not what He meant? Whoa!!

Do some research, you don't have to believe me, why do you think that some versions have it in parentheses? Because it is a commentary by either the writer or the editor of what they thought he meant. You keep using Mark 7:18-19 to support your beliefs but this is not written in the same scenario in Matthew 15.

16 “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17 “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? 18 But the things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart, and these defile them. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts—murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. 20 These are what defile a person; but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.

Nothing about declaring anything here.

The implication here again is that we can't take God plainly at His word.

It's not so much that as you don't understand the context and time and place these writings were set in.

The Jews hated the Samaritans. BTW: that whole area was called Palestine at the time and yes it was under Roman rule.

Samaritans were 'half-breeds' and not all Jews hated them, very few, they just kept away from them because it was against Torah for those very observant, to mix with another nation.

The land was divided into various parts at that time. I am very well studied on the geographical changes, but I never for that time or today call it by the heathen name given it by the heathens. But that doesn't matter, that still was in the territory of Ephraim.

And yes, the Romans were somewhat wolfish weren't they?... probably why He told them not to speak to anyone on the roads. I think I said that.

You don't think that Yeshua sent his disciples out to witness to all? No, and for someone that wants to accuse me of not believing G-ds word you are not believing what I posted where Yeshua said he came only for the children of Israel, thus that was where he was going after sending the 72.

The recording of the 72 does not identify all the cities they went to so Gentile cities are not out of the question especially since Isaiah records that Yeshua was to be a light to the Gentiles. Certainly though, they did go to Samaria because Yeshua went there.

So because of what is written in Isaiah you are assuming that Yeshua didn't know what he was saying when he said he came for the sheep of Israel? Yes, many were dispersed, but just because they were in Gentile territory (which would include Galilee) doesn't mean that the apostles that were sent camped out with the gentiles nor that they ate treif.

Did He lie? That is what I have been asking you! No, He could not have and would not have lied. Yet, even the dogs ate the crumbs that fell from His table.

See above.

You're back to telling people what Yeshua meant instead of what He said. Interesting. There is no indication that the only homes the 72 would be staying at would be Jewish.

See Above.

Yes, Yeshua did declare all foods clean through Mark 7:18-19. He begins with, "Are you so dull?"

See above where I said this isn't included in Matthew 15.

No one who has come to know and love the Lord and experience His grace has a problem seeing salvation and love going hand in hand.
It's true that faith without works is dead. This is also God's truth:
"We know that the law is good if one uses it properly." That means we don't make it out to do what it can't...save us. If you are implying with your posting of Matthew 7:21 that following the dietary law is salvific, you are in error.

I never have, you have been the one all along that is making this a salvic issue, something only Christian presume of those who are Messianic.

Muslim's read the Quran. Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. They worship a god called allah. Their god allah has no son and has a prophet named Muhammad. What they think and do is not and should not be of any import to Jews or Christians. What is of import to Jews is what commanded of them by God and their need to be obedient to that. What is of import to Christians, Messianics included, is that Yeshua became the pure sacrifice for sin and through Him we are reconciled to God. "Do not call anything impure that God has made pure." Why do we find it so hard to believe that if God can make sinners clean, he can make pigs clean too? And why do we look at our Brothers and Sisters in the Body and imply that they are pagan because they accept Yeshua's words?

So it doesn't bother you that Muslims who do view Jesus as a prophet, find it offensive that Christian say they believe in Jesus yet do not follow his words and they eat pork?

To be cleansed of sin in G-ds eyes is totally different from changing an animals physiology. Again, sheep, cows, goats, chew the cud, just as they did 1000's of years ago, and PIGS DO NOT. They are just as unclean in their physical makeup as they were when he created them.

I believe Jesus/Yeshua as recorded in Mark 7:14-23.

You still don't get it do you, he did not declared pigs clean. Some with argue that even if he did 'declare all foods clean' it meant that by eating and touching the food with washed or unwashed hands was the same. And that stuff he called 'food' was what is called food for Jews, those things listed in Leviticus.

No, I don't and yes, salvation is by Yeshua and we are called to be obedient, yet the dietary law is not salvific because Yeshua said it wasn't.

Please, for the last time, no one here is saying that. It is about love and obedience.

 

[yedida]

Nope. Didn't miss a thing. Show me the proof that most Muslims are the offspring of Abraham. Connect Muhammad to Isamael. You can't and neither can the Muslims.

Then you had better be perfectly obedient to it because you are dismissing Yeshua and His words.



So, you're saying the Gentiles don't figure into God's plan at all eh? And the prophet Isaiah was wrong too?



He might considering He would not call unclean what His Father had made clean.



Once again, you are comparing Christians to pagan worshipers. I don't perceive peace and joy. I HAVE peace and joy in Yeshua.



Never said anyone needs Paul approval. It's interesting to note, however, that Paul had the Lord's approval.



Apparently God's words to us through Mark aren't good enough? And when God says "Do not call unclean what God has made clean." we are supposed to tell Him He's joking, right?


Actually, it was God, not me who said it's wrong to make another stumble. I'm not concerned with whether I'm making a Jew stumble or not. He has the Law for his salvation. I have Yeshua and in Him I am free. The dietary law is not salvific.



If God has said "Do not call anything impure that God has made clean." then who am I to argue with Him? If Yeshua said that it's not what goes into a mouth that defiles but what comes out, I am going to believe Him.

Peter tells us what Hashem meant here. It had nothing to do with meats, clean or unclean. It had to do with the Jews' views of people and their state of purity or impurity. Not food at all.
That's just a person way of rationalizing their desire to eat whatever they choose regardless of what God has stated. He never changed His mind on this.

 

[Jerushabelle]

Peter tells us what Hashem meant here. It had nothing to do with meats, clean or unclean. It had to do with the Jews' views of people and their state of purity or impurity. Not food at all.
That's just a person way of rationalizing their desire to eat whatever they choose regardless of what God has stated. He never changed His mind on this.

"Kill and eat?"

LOL, I'm not into killing and eating Gentiles, are you? But you seem so nice! LOL

 

[Jerushabelle]

Please, for the last time, no one here is saying that. It is about love and obedience.

Yes it is Sister Lulav and what I am telling you is that I am not being unloving of anyone here or unloving of God or disobedient to God because I do not follow all of the dietary law. Not all Messianic believe that the dietary law is mandatory. Some believe as I do. I also believe that it is my right to post my first century Christian (Messianic) beliefs without being likened to a pagan or any unbeliever. There are many faces to Messianism. There is only One God, One Messiah and One Body.

 

[Lulav]

Where in Scripture are Gentiles represented by or equated to animals and birds?

Animals and birds representing nations or peoples

Modern day

Eagle -- USA
Bear----Russia
Lion-----UK or England
Kangaroo---Australia
Beaver---Canada
Panda --China (or more anciently the Dragon)
Wolf --Italy (he sent them out as sheep among wolves)
Elephant-- Laos
Bull ----Spain
Kiwi----New Zealand

And the list goes on. These nations can be represented by trees as well. And we see trees representing people in the Bible as well.

Here are a few

Japan---Cherry Blossom
USA----Oak
England---Oak
Greece and Italy---Olive
Canada---Maple

Now in the Bible we see where this got it's start
From Daniel 7

"The first was like a lion, and it had the wings of an eagle. I watched until its wings were torn off and it was lifted from the ground so that it stood on two feet like a man, and the heart of a man was given to it.
5 "And there before me was a second beast, which looked like a bear. It was raised up on one of its sides, and it had three ribs in its mouth between its teeth. It was told, 'Get up and eat your fill of flesh!' 6 "After that, I looked, and there before me was another beast, one that looked like a leopard. And on its back it had four wings like those of a bird. This beast had four heads, and it was given authority to rule. 7 "After that, in my vision at night I looked, and there before me was a fourth beast--terrifying and frightening and very powerful. It had large iron teeth; it crushed and devoured its victims and trampled underfoot whatever was left. It was different from all the former beasts, and it had ten horns.
8 "While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth that spoke boastfully

And what does this mean? Daniel asks

15 "I, Daniel, was troubled in spirit, and the visions that passed through my mind disturbed me. 16 I approached one of those standing there and asked him the true meaning of all this.
"So he told me and gave me the interpretation of these things:
17 'The four great beasts are four kingdoms that will rise from the earth.

There are more examples but this should suffice for now, also refer to Rev 13

And certainly in the context of Peter's vision, "kill and eat" would not have applied to Gentiles.

Wasn't the dream about going to other nations?

Yeshua wasn't represented as a lion in that vision. Peter didn't eat from it because it was a vision.

I never said that Yeshua was in that vision. I was giving an example of animals representing men.

And Peter didn't eat from it but he went and ate with those represented. But that doesn't mean he didn't eat Kosher.

 

[jcpro]

Hmm, Russia is not represented by a bear. It's two headed eagle. Germany has a single headed black eagle so does Poland-except it's white. Canada's animal symbol is beaver, btw.

 

[Qnts2]

Yes it is Sister Lulav and what I am telling you is that I am not being unloving of anyone here or unloving of God or disobedient to God because I do not follow all of the dietary law. Not all Messianic believe that the dietary law is mandatory. Some believe as I do. I also believe that it is my right to post my first century Christian (Messianic) beliefs without being likened to a pagan or any unbeliever. There are many faces to Messianism. There is only One God, One Messiah and One Body.

You are correct. The belief that keeping Kosher is mandatory, which is held in some Messianic synagogues is actually a fairly recent thing. Maybe only about 10 years old.

And the belief that there is One law, is even newer and generally not accepted in most Messianic Jewish synagogues.