Miracle of Fatima

[zeke37]

That's impossibly large and vague at once. What does 'next only to her son" mean? I'd say it doesn't prove a thing about the unBiblical practice of praying to the dead. Beyond that, what are we supposed to interpret "and so on" as indicating?



Depends on what you mean by "very high place" doesn't it? So if you think Mary is the co-redeemer of the world, the fourth person of the Trinity, was taken bodily to heaven although the Bible doesn't say anything about that, or that she was not born a normal human like all others, you are right. We don't make doctrine out of legend and folklore. But if you mean something else, you'll have to say it.

Fatima in itself seems only to prove that a lot of people witnessed an unusual phenomenon. It did NOT deliver any critical message to mankind, although that is what some churches say happened. It didn't make much of any change to the people who supposedly saw Mary. It didn't change world events. so???

i thought only 3 witnessed it...
the rest saw them witnessing something.

 

[zeke37]

I think that this is a sad point that so many Christians don't have a sense for the miraculous. I remember when I was a Pentecostal back almost 20 years ago how much apprehension non-Pentecostals Protestants had for Pentecostals. And that what was occurring in these Pentecostal churches had to be of the devil for God just didn't work that way any longer. Personnally I think that this is one of the fruits of the Pentecostal movement in that it is opening the eyes of many Protestants that miraculous still happens. They are learning what Catholics have known for 2000 years and that is God is with us and He still does miracles for our benefit.

curious....

what does speaking ecstatic utterances have to do with miracles FROM God???
spreading the Gospel to all men of all tongues, now that is a miracle,
and that is what 1Cor14 covers.

 

[Albion]

i thought only 3 witnessed it...
the rest saw them witnessing something.

You are may be thinking of Lourdes instead of Fatima. There were many who thought they saw the sun do something strange at Fatima.

 

[Dylan Michael]

i thought only 3 witnessed it...
the rest saw them witnessing something.

No, no, no, no.
The children saw Our Lady. She told them that the sun would dance. Hundreds of thousands of people saw the sun dance, shoot bright colors and spin around. Many people that were soaking wet from the rain were instantly dried.

 

[Publius]

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

The issue isn't whether or not it proves the Catholic position on Mary, but whether or not it is Biblical.

Let's start with the obvious question: how do you know it's Mary?

 

[Nephi]

No, no, no, no.
The children saw Our Lady. She told them that the sun would dance. Hundreds of thousands of people saw the sun dance, shoot bright colors and spin around. Many people that were soaking wet from the rain were instantly dried.

From everything I've read this seems to be pretty much undeniable. People miles from the main body (people watching from their houses, for example) even saw the spectacle. Now exactly "what" people saw the sun do differed, and I even read that some people present saw nothing.

Before the spectacle it had been storming profusely and pictures from the location depicted dark skies and people crowded with thousands of umbrellas. Then as it was reported, the sun came out, the clouds dispersed, and all was dried near-instantly. If I recall even a secular newspaper in Portugal (Portugal was anti-clerical at the time) recorded these events (it later recanted them under pressure).

Then you take into consideration the number of other prophecies that were given and fulfilled before the dancing of the sun. One such prophecy is the deaths of Francisco, who died in 1919, and Jacinta in 1920.

I'm convinced something happened, although I'm not sure what, but I don't think it validates Roman Catholicism.

 

[Albion]

From everything I've read this seems to be pretty much undeniable. People miles from the main body (people watching from their houses, for example) even saw the spectacle. Now exactly "what" people saw the sun do differed, and I even read that some people present saw nothing.

There are many unexplained phenomena in the world, and they aren't miracles. The question here--aside from "was it Mary?"--still is "How could this be said to confirm any Catholic teaching about Mary?" Not unless it had some impact other than making the superstitious more superstitious IMO.

 

[Publius]

No, no, no, no.
The children saw Our Lady.

And how did they know it was "your lady"?

She told them that the sun would dance. Hundreds of thousands of people saw the sun dance, shoot bright colors and spin around. Many people that were soaking wet from the rain were instantly dried.

And the point of this was....?

 

[Albion]

But the sun did not actually dance, because those with the most detailed accounts of the sun appearing to do something unusual described it as having fallen from the sky, swooping, and etc.-- which would have affected the world's weather dramatically. Nothing, however, happened. If, therefore, the miracle of Fatima was that people thought they saw something, what did this miracle accomplish? And how does that verify anything about Catholic teaching concerning Mary?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

But the sun did not actually dance, because those with the most detailed accounts of the sun appearing to do something unusual described it as having fallen from the sky, swooping, and etc.-- which would have affected the world's weather dramatically. Nothing, however, happened. If, therefore, the miracle of Fatima was that people thought they saw something, what did this miracle accomplish? And how does that verify anything about Catholic teaching concerning Mary?

Josephus witnessed some rather bizarre events before the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70

http://www.christianforums.com/t7593926/
Josephus's sights and signs 1st century...did these really occur?

The first "sign" that is shown happening concerns a meteor resembling a sword. Surely a sight like this would have been seen my a multitude of people

1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year."
This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.

 

[Nephi]

But the sun did not actually dance, because those with the most detailed accounts of the sun appearing to do something unusual described it as having fallen from the sky, swooping, and etc.-- which would have affected the world's weather dramatically. Nothing, however, happened. If, therefore, the miracle of Fatima was that people thought they saw something, what did this miracle accomplish? And how does that verify anything about Catholic teaching concerning Mary?

"Dance" is just an attempt to describe what the people saw. If I recall correctly, the apparition told the children that "something" would happen, but not specify anything related to the sun.

The fact is that, while the sun did not literally "move" and "come to earth," etc. - people did in fact see what they describe as such, up to several miles away. The distance between witnesses rules out the idea of any mass hysteria, mass delusions, etc. It meant that people genuinely saw the sun do, or appear to do, something.

It fulfilled a prophecy, and if one believes that it is indeed Mary, then it does confirm a whole lot.

There are many unexplained phenomena in the world, and they aren't miracles. The question here--aside from "was it Mary?"--still is "How could this be said to confirm any Catholic teaching about Mary?" Not unless it had some impact other than making the superstitious more superstitious IMO.

I do not believe that it was truly Mary, I just concede that it is indeed supernatural.

I'm afraid that if one does believe it was truly Mary, then it would indeed confirm a number of Catholic beliefs, although not entirely about Mary:

• The Immaculate Heart of Mary. The apparition requested Russia be consecrated to her "Immaculate Heart."
  See: Essentials: The Facts: The Consecration of Russia
• The Sacred Heart of Jesus.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1916 Apparitions
• The Roman Catholic understanding of Hell, as the children see in a vision.
  See: Essentials: The Facts: Sister Lucy of Fatima Describes the Vision of Hell
• The literal Body and Blood in the Eucharist.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1916 Apparitions
• The Rosary.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
• Purgatory.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
  
  Edit: I suppose there are actually more:
• That Mary is able to stay the hand, so to speak, of the wrathful God. This may be taken to also believe that Mary is a form of mediator, or has some special influence above the rest of the saints.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
• Intercessory prayers can save those from Hell.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
• Confirmation of the truth of the Roman Catholic Church.
  See: The Apparition at Tuy (1929)
• That sins of men hurt Mary, or rather pierce her heart with "thorns." Also the possibility of reparations to Mary. There's also a list of "blasphemies" against the "Immaculate Heart of Mary."
  See: The Apparitions at Pontevedra (1925-1926)
• That France was punished for not being consecrated to the Sacred Heart.
  See: The Apparition at Rianjo (1931)

 

[Erose]

I do not believe that it was truly Mary, I just concede that it is indeed supernatural.

In your opinion what do you make of it. Just curious.

 

[Nephi]

In your opinion what do you make of it. Just curious.

The theology espoused by it is troubling, from my perspective as an EO, and so I'm not sure how I feel about it other than the fact I reject it being an authentic apparition of the Theotokos.

I'm more inclined to accept apparitions that don't deal with much other than encouraging conversion, requesting the building of a church/monastery, and comforting the faithful. Examples of this are aplenty, such as Zeitun, the more recent apparitions in Egypt lately, and maybe even Guadalupe.

 

[Erose]

The theology espoused by it is troubling, from my perspective as an EO, and so I'm not sure how I feel about it other than the fact I reject it being an authentic apparition of the Theotokos.

I'm more inclined to accept apparitions that don't deal with much other than encouraging conversion, requesting the building of a church/monastery, and comforting the faithful. Examples of this are aplenty, such as Zeitun, the more recent apparitions in Egypt lately, and maybe even Guadalupe.

Makes sense. I think though that one must be careful in evaluating what was actually said by Mary (or ...) and how people interpret it or spin it. There seems to be some websites that try to spin what was said to mean something that was not the original intent. In other words trying to make more out of it and what was really there.

 

[Nephi]

Makes sense. I think though that one must be careful in evaluating what was actually said by Mary (or ...) and how people interpret it or spin it. There seems to be some websites that try to spin what was said to mean something that was not the original intent. In other words trying to make more out of it and what was really there.

Yeah. Some of the Fatima-devotees are so extreme that they're practically borderline schismatic with Rome, and accuse the Vatican of lying about consecrating Russia, the Third Secret, etc. They end up being pretty apocalyptic because of Fatima's end-time-like prophecies, and dedicate all of their time spreading the Fatima message.

Anything that would cause a shift in beliefs from what was held prior to said apparition is definitely out of the question for me. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)

 

[Albion]

"Dance" is just an attempt to describe what the people saw.

Of course. What did you think I meant?

The fact is that, while the sun did not literally "move" and "come to earth," etc. - people did in fact see what they describe as such, up to several miles away. The distance between witnesses rules out the idea of any mass hysteria, mass delusions, etc. It meant that people genuinely saw the sun do, or appear to do, something.

Sure. That happens all the time.

It fulfilled a prophecy

??

and if one believes that it is indeed Mary, then it does confirm a whole lot.

No it doesn't. All it confirms is that these people were predisposed to think that Mary was in the business of apparitions.

I'm afraid that if one does believe it was truly Mary, then it would indeed confirm a number of Catholic beliefs, although not entirely about Mary:

• The Immaculate Heart of Mary. The apparition requested Russia be consecrated to her "Immaculate Heart."
  See: Essentials: The Facts: The Consecration of Russia
• The Sacred Heart of Jesus.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1916 Apparitions
• The Roman Catholic understanding of Hell, as the children see in a vision.
  See: Essentials: The Facts: Sister Lucy of Fatima Describes the Vision of Hell
• The literal Body and Blood in the Eucharist.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1916 Apparitions
• The Rosary.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
• Purgatory.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
  
  Edit: I suppose there are actually more:
• That Mary is able to stay the hand, so to speak, of the wrathful God. This may be taken to also believe that Mary is a form of mediator, or has some special influence above the rest of the saints.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
• Intercessory prayers can save those from Hell.
  See: Circumstances and Dialogue of the 1917 Apparitions
• Confirmation of the truth of the Roman Catholic Church.
  See: The Apparition at Tuy (1929)
• That sins of men hurt Mary, or rather pierce her heart with "thorns." Also the possibility of reparations to Mary. There's also a list of "blasphemies" against the "Immaculate Heart of Mary."
  See: The Apparitions at Pontevedra (1925-1926)
• That France was punished for not being consecrated to the Sacred Heart.
  See: The Apparition at Rianjo (1931)

[/quote]

OK, this is all possible IF the apparition were real. IOW the sun was one thing; the Mary part is something else. But even so, don't you think that those who believed in all these items were naturally going to think that the alleged apparition were going to be in step with them? That is to say, if the apparition had said one thing that might not be anticipated or in step with accepted RC belief, THAT would really be news. Prophesies usually reveal something and don't just say "what you already believe...good for you."

 

[Albion]

The theology espoused by it is troubling, from my perspective as an EO, and so I'm not sure how I feel about it other than the fact I reject it being an authentic apparition of the Theotokos.

I'm more inclined to accept apparitions that don't deal with much other than encouraging conversion, requesting the building of a church/monastery, and comforting the faithful. Examples of this are aplenty, such as Zeitun, the more recent apparitions in Egypt lately, and maybe even Guadalupe.

I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them. What an awful interpretation of God's justice! For all that we are taught in his Holy Word about having faith, changing your life, trusting Jesus....no, if you don't have family or contacts to pull strings for you, in a theological sense, and that God judges each man's heart on the basis of what OTHER people have done for you with God, none of that matters. It's repulsive.

 

[Erose]

Yeah. Some of the Fatima-devotees are so extreme that they're practically borderline schismatic with Rome, and accuse the Vatican of lying about consecrating Russia, the Third Secret, etc. They end up being pretty apocalyptic because of Fatima's end-time-like prophecies, and dedicate all of their time spreading the Fatima message.

Anything that would cause a shift in beliefs from what was held prior to said apparition is definitely out of the question for me. "But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed." (Galatians 1:8)

I agree that there have been many and not just Catholics that have went stupid on this conspiracy stuff and even when Pope John Paul II revealed the last of the prophecies there were many conspiracy buffs cried foul because they thought they already assumed what was really in it, and when it wasn't they just assumed the Vatican was hiding the truth.

But when you look at the Secrets themselves in light of the language that God used through His prophets in the OT, they make some sense.

The first secret is a vision of hell and we can't forget that the concept of the existence of hell was being challenged and I would think that this was a reminder that hell does exist.

The second secret was a warning that if we did not change our direction then there would be consequences. Out of all of them the second secret was more like an OT prophecy. I.e. Turn back to me Isreal or I will send the Babylonians or Chaldeans or ...

The third is the most cryptic and more like what you find in the book of Revelations.

Anyway one asks about the fruit. Well I think at that time there was significant fruit in the conversions and the fortification of faith during a time that there were many claiming that God was dead. One can say that this helped to at least temporily turn the tide within Europe, but we also can say that it didn't last. But in Isreal it usually didn't last long either did it.

We also can look and see that Russia is no longer a major threat and that it is slowly regaining its Christian roots. But for us humans who live such a short time if something doesn't occur within a lifetime well it just didn't happen. So the jury is still out on both the 2nd and 3rd secrets.

 

[Erose]

I read one of those that had one of the children saying that the woman told her that many souls go to hell because there is no one to pray for them. What an awful interpretation of God's justice! For all that we are taught in his Holy Word about having faith, changing your life, trusting Jesus....no, if you don't have family or contacts to pull strings for you, in a theological sense, and that God judges each man's heart on the basis of what OTHER people have done for you with God, none of that matters. It's repulsive.

So we as Christians shouldn't pray for non-Christians and their salvation?

 

[Albion]

So we as Christians shouldn't pray for non-Christians and their salvation?

I should have included the whole quote

"or make sacrifices for them."