Miracle of Fatima

[Albion]

the Catholic Church does not teach universalism

Right, but I'm not saying this prayer does either. However, it does say that if there's enough prayer, it might happen, which is also wrong.

we pray that God will save all mankind, but we also know that some people will reject Him and will be damned to Hell

Not what the prayer says.

 

[Erose]

the prayer the vision told the children to pray was
"O My Jesus, Forgive Us Our Sins, Lead All Souls Into Heaven, Especially Those Of Us In Most Need Of Thy Mercy"

How can that be considered orthodox?

Albion, I just noticed something. You left out part of the prayer that we have been discussing. The prayer actually goes like this:

O my Jesus,
Forgive Us Our Sins
And Save Us From the Fires of Hell,
Lead All Souls to Heaven,
Especially Those In Most Need of Thy Mercy!

I didn't think about it until I prayed the prayer this morning with my son.

 

[Albion]

Albion, I just noticed something. You left out part of the prayer that we have been discussing. The prayer actually goes like this:

O my Jesus,
Forgive Us Our Sins
And Save Us From the Fires of Hell,
Lead All Souls to Heaven,
Especially Those In Most Need of Thy Mercy!

I didn't think about it until I prayed the prayer this morning with my son.

OK, that's good. But then how do we harmonize the reference to Hell with a prayer that apparently says it is possible no one would go there? Hell would still remain for the fallen angels? Hell is only temporary? Hell means something other than what we usually think? It raises some interesting questions if we take the prayer at face value and consider it genuine.

 

[Erose]

OK, that's good. But then how do we harmonize the reference to Hell with a prayer that apparently says it is possible no one would go there? Hell would still remain for the fallen angels? Hell is only temporary? Hell means something other than what we usually think? It raises some interesting questions if we take the prayer at face value and consider it genuine.

Albion, in this prayer a statement of faith is not being made, but rather we are praying for the will of God to be done. As stated elsewhere and shown from Scripture it is God's will that all men are saved right? If it is God's will that all men are saved, then it is a good thing to pray for God's will to be done as we do in the "Our Father". That is in effect what is being done within this prayer.

So there is no harmonization of hell and universal salvation needed.

 

[Albion]

Albion, in this prayer a statement of faith is not being made, but rather we are praying for the will of God to be done.

I know that that's what some have said, but the wording of the prayer doesn't appear to saying that.

As stated elsewhere and shown from Scripture it is God's will that all men are saved right?

But in this prayer, the supposition is that it can happen, not that it would be what God would have preferred. Besides, we know that not all men can be saved unless our understanding of Hell--from Scripture--is changed.

 

[ebia]

the Catholic Church does not teach universalism, I believe you are taking this out of context, we pray that God will save all mankind, but we also know that some people will reject Him and will be damned to Hell, the children were showen a vision of hell so this vision
1 timothey 2:4 says that God desires that all men be saved
this is the same sentiment, we know that not everyone will be saved but we still pray for it

The catholic church does not teach that all will be saved (universalism), but does allow the hope that all may be saved and none lost - see Gregory of Naziansus, Hans Urs Von Balthazar, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor.

 

[Erose]

The catholic church does not teach that all will be saved (universalism), but does allow the hope that all may be saved and none lost - see Gregory of Naziansus, Hans Urs Von Balthazar, Cardinal Murphy-O'Connor.

There was/is a couple of schools of thought on this subject. The Church has never came out and defined what the percentages of how many go to heaven verses those who go to hell. So it can be open to ideas and debate. The majority of theologians based upon the passage of the narrow road vs the wide road assume that more people to to hell than heaven. But there have been others including some who have been canonized as saints think or hope that more go to heaven than hell.

Alot of people who don't study Catholic theology or theological history thinks of the Church as having defined everything and as such there is no wiggle room at all in Catholic theology. In reality this is just not the case. The Catholic Church does not like defining or dogmatizing doctrine. It really doesn't. The only time that she does is when she has been forced to because of some heresy or potential confusion that is wide sweeping.

So as a Catholic one can believe that only a few enter heaven or a majority enter heaven. I guess you can say one can look at it optimistically or pessimistically. What a Catholic cannot reject though is the fact of the existence of hell and its purpose.

 

[Jonathan95]

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

No.

Spoken Prophetically by Jesus, regarding divine visitation by Mary: "If I want to manifest MYSELF to somebody, I don't do it through Mary. She is MY beloved child, but she does not manifest herself to people. This is a huge lie and taught by the Catholic church and other groups. I am not happy with this at all. She does not appear, it is the devil disguised as her, to mislead people so they would pray and worship her instead of ME. I do not allow any other gods before MY HOLY FACE!"

Source: Little Lessons

 

[razeontherock]

There was/is a couple of schools of thought on this subject. The Church has never came out and defined what the percentages of how many go to heaven verses those who go to hell. So it can be open to ideas and debate. The majority of theologians based upon the passage of the narrow road vs the wide road assume that more people to to hell than heaven. But there have been others including some who have been canonized as saints think or hope that more go to heaven than hell.

Alot of people who don't study Catholic theology or theological history thinks of the Church as having defined everything and as such there is no wiggle room at all in Catholic theology. In reality this is just not the case. The Catholic Church does not like defining or dogmatizing doctrine. It really doesn't. The only time that she does is when she has been forced to because of some heresy or potential confusion that is wide sweeping.

So as a Catholic one can believe that only a few enter heaven or a majority enter heaven. I guess you can say one can look at it optimistically or pessimistically. What a Catholic cannot reject though is the fact of the existence of hell and its purpose.

Thank you for a good post. Such transparency can bring a lot of healing to many who need it. I'm inclined to add that some EO Saints have at least hoped for universal Salvation, entertaining the thought that it might even be possible - but the real relevancy to this thread is that no, the vision(s) at Fatima don't really specify Universalism.

 

[ebia]

Thank you for a good post. Such transparency can bring a lot of healing to many who need it. I'm inclined to add that some EO Saints have at least hoped for universal Salvation, entertaining the thought that it might even be possible -

and some Catholic theologians, most notably Balthasar

 

[Kepha]

So Albion we are not suppose to pray for the salvation of others?

St Paul says: [1] I desire therefore, first of all, that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men: [2] For kings, and for all that are in high station: that we may lead a quiet and a peaceable life in all piety and chastity. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Erose, this shouldn't belong in Scripture. It's not Orthodox thinking.

However, as I said previously, when one already has a basic understanding of certain truths while reading the text that not all men are going to be saved, we realize that the verse doesn't literally mean ALL MEN and nor does that particular prayer from Fatima. For starters, any one who has died, cannot be saved with prayers any longer, as this is a basic Catholic teaching. So the ALL MEN simply means ALL MEN LIVING ON EARTH AT THIS TIME.

 

[Erose]

Thank you for a good post. Such transparency can bring a lot of healing to many who need it. I'm inclined to add that some EO Saints have at least hoped for universal Salvation, entertaining the thought that it might even be possible - but the real relevancy to this thread is that no, the vision(s) at Fatima don't really specify Universalism.

Thanks Raze

 

[Erose]

Erose, this shouldn't belong in Scripture. It's not Orthodox thinking.

However, as I said previously, when one already has a basic understanding of certain truths while reading the text that not all men are going to be saved, we realize that the verse doesn't literally mean ALL MEN and nor does that particular prayer from Fatima. For starters, any one who has died, cannot be saved with prayers any longer, as this is a basic Catholic teaching. So the ALL MEN simply means ALL MEN LIVING ON EARTH AT THIS TIME.

The problem that many people have is that it is hard for them to see that God's Will does not necessarily equal reality. There are things that God wills or desires that are not reality.

1) He never wanted sin to enter His creation.
2) He wills that no man sin.
3) He wills all men to be saved as attested in the above verse and in several passages in Ezekiel.
4) He wills that His Church would be One as He and the Father are One.

Regretfully none of these things are reality, but as Christians they should be our will or desire as well. We as Christians should strive to align our wills the God's Will so that eventually God's Will can become reality in our lives, in God's Holy Church and after our Lord's second Advent in all of creation as well.

 

[razeontherock]

Well, we may not be able to share communion, but we can "break bread." Or urm, the other way around is it? We have much common ground here, with what you just said; that's my point.

While unbelievers are all stressed out over 'theodicy,' the reality is - what you just posted. And our Lord's heart breaks over those rejecting Him, for whatever reason ...

 

[Erose]

Well, we may not be able to share communion, but we can "break bread." Or urm, the other way around is it? We have much common ground here, with what you just said; that's my point.

While unbelievers are all stressed out over 'theodicy,' the reality is - what you just posted. And our Lord's heart breaks over those rejecting Him, for whatever reason ...

I think to often here on these forums we celebrate the differences and hardly ever those things we have in common. So all I can say is...