Miracle of Fatima

[simonpeter]

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

 

[LaSpino3]

Simonpeter, wrote, concerning miracle of Fatima, "Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?"

Phil replies, "Yes, but not any Biblical position that I am aware of. Young girls having visions. Hmmm sounds a lot like a few others in the past.

Joseph Smith had visions, founder of Mormon church. As did Taze Russel, founder of Jehovah Witnesses. Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Scientiology, and lets not forget the 9 year old girl that had a vision, told her pastor, and the Pentecostal tongues movement was born.

I believe Jim Jones, David Kerosh, and Mr. Applewhite, you remember, "Heavens gate ministeries," they all claimed to have some form of extra-terrestrial communication with God also.

Dangerious stuff, don't you think? But this is only my opinion,

Phil LaSpino

 

[bbbbbbb]

Mary Baker Eddy founded Christian Science, not Scientology.

Phil's point, however, is quite valid. Even Joan of Arc, who was burned at the stake as a heretic by the Catholic Church, had a divine vision.

 

[Erose]

Simonpeter, wrote, concerning miracle of Fatima, "Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?"

Phil replies, "Yes, but not any Biblical position that I am aware of. Young girls having visions. Hmmm sounds a lot like a few others in the past.

Joseph Smith had visions, founder of Mormon church. As did Taze Russel, founder of Jehovah Witnesses. Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Scientiology, and lets not forget the 9 year old girl that had a vision, told her pastor, and the Pentecostal tongues movement was born.

I believe Jim Jones, David Kerosh, and Mr. Applewhite, you remember, "Heavens gate ministeries," they all claimed to have some form of extra-terrestrial communication with God also.

Dangerious stuff, don't you think? But this is only my opinion,

Phil LaSpino

I think the big difference between those having visions that you documented and what happened at Fatima and a few other places is the evidence of miracles (that could be scientifically substantiated) that occurred with these visions and still occur in many of these places. As far as I know these people that you refer to except maybe the 9 year old girl (don't know anything about that) did have miracles follow.

 

[Dorothea]

I don't know anything about Fatima, but I do honor Christ's Mother.

 

[Albion]

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

As a starter, what exactly do you think it proves about Mary?

 

[New_Wineskin]

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

Absolutely . I was taught it in the Catholic school system . It presents the position quite well .

 

[LaSpino3]

Like I said before, it only proves a Catholic's position, not a Christians. Don't take me wrong, you can believe anything you want, suit yourselves. As for me, Jesus Christ is the real deal, He's like holding a royal flush, having a hole in one, or bowling a 300 game, or a pitcher, pitching the perfect game, or the love a woman gets when she has married the perfect husband. What else can I say.

If some people need a stand in, no sweat off my brow. But if I were you, I would grab my Bible, and see exactly what the Father thinks of having someone stand in for His beloved Son, taking for themselves that which belongs to Him alone. Of course this is only my opinion, but I do like to share them with others.

bbbbbbb, thanks for the correction.

Phil LaSpino

 

[simonpeter]

What about the miracle of the sun witnessed by thousands?

 

[whitetiger1]

Doesn't it prove the Catholic position on Mary?

Discuss.

Which position? If you mean that Mary is the Mother of God than there are more Churches than the Catholic Church that accept that.

 

[Jipsah]

Which position? If you mean that Mary is the Mother of God than there are more Churches than the Catholic Church that accept that.

You can't really deny that without denying the Incarnation.

 

[Albion]

We're still waiting for someone to answer the question--what is this supposed to prove about Mary?

 

[simonpeter]

We're still waiting for someone to answer the question--what is this supposed to prove about Mary?

That Mary is next only to her son, intercedes for us, and so on ... generally a very high place is given to Mary, which Protestants disagree with.

 

[Albion]

That Mary is next only to her son, intercedes for us, and so on

That's impossibly large and vague at once. What does 'next only to her son" mean? I'd say it doesn't prove a thing about the unBiblical practice of praying to the dead. Beyond that, what are we supposed to interpret "and so on" as indicating?

generally a very high place is given to Mary, which Protestants disagree with.

Depends on what you mean by "very high place" doesn't it? So if you think Mary is the co-redeemer of the world, the fourth person of the Trinity, was taken bodily to heaven although the Bible doesn't say anything about that, or that she was not born a normal human like all others, you are right. We don't make doctrine out of legend and folklore. But if you mean something else, you'll have to say it.

Fatima in itself seems only to prove that a lot of people witnessed an unusual phenomenon. It did NOT deliver any critical message to mankind, although that is what some churches say happened. It didn't make much of any change to the people who supposedly saw Mary. It didn't change world events. so???

 

[simonpeter]

Albion,

Let me ask a simple question: do you pray to Mary?

 

[whitetiger1]

That Mary is next only to her son, intercedes for us, and so on ... generally a very high place is given to Mary, which Protestants disagree with.

That's a lot to place on one vision. Catholic never place her next to her Son as if she were a god

 

[Albion]

Albion,

Let me ask a simple question: do you pray to Mary?

I have chosen to do what Christ taught his followers to do when they asked him how to pray. I also have decided that what Christ did himself in prayer is a very good example that's been given to us. Think about it.

 

[LaSpino3]

Simonpeter wrote, "What about the miracle of the sun witnessed by thousands?"

Phil asks, "Can you explain to me what your speaking of by "miracle of the sun?"

Do you consider what happened at Fatima, and this miracle of the sun, a sign? a wonder? or a miracles? or all three? And can you tell us why you think they came from God, and not Lucifer, the "Light bearer?"

Give me some Scriptural evidence that believers are to watch for these signs and wonders, when Jesus said only the unbelieving watch, or expect these things. Why is it no-one but Catholics have seen these things?

Reminds me of Pentecostals. If your not one of them, you can't speak in tongues because they have to teach you how. So do I need to be a Catholic to even have a chance to see something like this?

Phil LaSpino

 

[Erose]

Simonpeter wrote, "What about the miracle of the sun witnessed by thousands?"

Phil asks, "Can you explain to me what your speaking of by "miracle of the sun?"

Do you consider what happened at Fatima, and this miracle of the sun, a sign? a wonder? or a miracles? or all three? And can you tell us why you think they came from God, and not Lucifer, the "Light bearer?"

Give me some Scriptural evidence that believers are to watch for these signs and wonders, when Jesus said only the unbelieving watch, or expect these things. Why is it no-one but Catholics have seen these things?

Reminds me of Pentecostals. If your not one of them, you can't speak in tongues because they have to teach you how. So do I need to be a Catholic to even have a chance to see something like this?

Phil LaSpino

Actually it was documented that even unbelievers and other non-Catholics seen the vision of the Sun dancing or at least changing colors. It was not an exclusive thing and not all people there in Fatima lay claim they saw anything and then there were many people miles away from Fatima that claim they seen the Sun do some crazy things. There is a reason why there has been groups of scientists that have worked on provided a reasonable explanation of what occurred in Fatima. If something was not seen that was extraordinary there then why spend the time trying to come up with a natural explanation?

I think that you have to look at the history of God's people. During that history they also claimed (as documented in various places in Scripture) of seeing miraculous things. Why would on assume that miracles ceased to exist after Christ's resurrection or the death of His last Apostle? Throughout Church history there have been claims of miraculous events and the Church has a division in the Vatican that deals exclusively with determining the validity of proposed miracles. From what I understand that if there is any doubt whatsoever that the miracle could have been a natural event then it is a natural event. There must be no doubt on the part of the investigators that what really happen was a miracle.

What Fatima proves IMHO is that Christ hasn't left us. That He is still with us and is still working in us and in the World to strengthen His kingdom. He is still on occasion when He deems it necessary to actively warn us that we are going too far away from Him as He did to the Jews.

I would recommend reading up on it just a little. Wiki has an ok article on Our Lady of Fatima.

 

[Albion]

Why would on assume that miracles ceased to exist after Christ's resurrection or the death of His last Apostle?

Few Christians DO think that miracles have ceased. The question is why would visions of Mary accompanied by little else but encouragement to say the rosary be the heavy-hitter of modern miracles? I'd be much more impressed by something useful.

What Fatima proves IMHO is that Christ hasn't left us.

Who would need an apparition to prove that?

What it more likely proves, if real, is that backsliding Catholic nations need to turn back to Christ. That's the Catholic interpretation most often heard, not that I have a favorite theory and this is it. It does make sense, tho.