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Josephus's sights and signs 1st century...did these really occur?

LittleLambofJesus

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I have been reading thru this site again and I am still wondering if these events that Josephus wrote about actually occurred

Is there anything written elsewhere by other witnesses during this period of the Jewish uprising before the coming of the Roman army in ad70?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Our Lord proceeded, "And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." [6]- Josephus has collected the chief of these portents together, and introduces his account by a reflection on the strangeness of that infatuation, which could induce his countrymen to give credit to impostors, and unfounded reports, whilst they disregarded the divine admonitions, confirmed, as he asserts they Were, by the following extraordinary signs :

1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year." This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.

2. "On the eighth of the month Zanthicus, (before the feast of unleavened bread) at the ninth hour of the night, there shone round about the altar, and the circumjacent buildings of the temple, a light equal to the brightness of the day, which continued for the space of half an hour." This could not be the effect of lightning, nor of a vivid aurora borealis, for it was confined to a particular spoil and the light shone unintermittedly thirty minutes.

3. "As the High Priest were leading a heifer to the altar to be sacrificed, she brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple." Such is the strange account given by the historian. Some may regard it as a "Grecian fable," while others may think that they discern in this prodigy a miraculous rebuke of Jewish infidelity and impiety, for rejecting the ANTITYPICAL Lamb, who had offered Up Himself as an atonement, "once for all," and who, by thus completely fulfilling their design, had virtually abrogated the Levitical sacrifices.

However this may be, the circumstances of the prodigy are remarkable. It did not occur in an obscure part of the city, but in the temple ; not at an ordinary time, but at the passover, the season of our LORD'S crucifixion in the presence, not of the vulgar merely, but of the High Priests and their attendants, and when they were leading the sacrifice to the altar.

4. "' About the sixth hour of the night, the eastern gate of the temple was seen to open without human assistance." When the guards informed the Curator of this event, he sent men to assist them in shutting it, who with great difficulty succeeded. -- This gate, as hath been observed already, 'Was of solid brass, and required twenty men to close it every evening. It could not have been opened by a "strong gust of wind," or a slight earthquake;" for Josephus says, it was secured by iron bolts And bars, which were let down into a large threshold; consisting of one entire stone." [8]

5. "Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the Setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem. " Neither could this portentous spectacle be occasioned by the aurora borealis, for it occurred before the setting of the sun ; or merely the fancy of a few villagers, gazing at the heavens, for it was seen in various parts of the country.

6. "At the subsequent feast of Pentecost, while the priests were going, by night, into the inner, temple to perform their customary ministrations, they first felt, as they said, a shaking, accompanied by an indistinct murmuring, and afterwards voices as of a multitude, saying, in a distinct and earnest manner, "LET US DEPART HENCE." This gradation will remind the reader of that awful transaction, which the feast of Pentecost *as principally instituted to commemorate.

First, a shaking was heard ; this would naturally induce the priests to listen : an unintelligible murmur succeeds; this would more powerfully arrest their attention, and while it was thus awakened arid fixed, they heard, says Josephus, the voices as of a multitude, distinctly pronouncing the words "LET US DEPART HENCE." -- And accordingly, before the period for celebrating this feast returned, the Jewish war had commenced, and in the space of three years afterwards, Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army, the temple converted into a citadel, and its sacred courts streaming with the blood of human victims.

7. As the last and most fearful omen, Josephus relates that one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a rustic of the lower class, during the Feast of Tabernacles, suddenly exclaimed in the temple, "A voice from the east a voice from the west -- a voice from the four winds- a voice against Jerusalem and the temple -- a voice against bridegrooms and brides -- a voice against the whole people !"

These words he incessantly proclaimed aloud both day and night, through all the streets of Jerusalem, for seven years and five months together, commencing at a time (A. D. 62) when the city was in a state of peace, and overflowing with prosperity, and terminating amidst the horrors of the siege. This disturber, having excited the attention of the magistracy, was brought before Albinus the Roman governor, who commanded that he should be scourged. But the severest stripes drew from him neither tears nor supplications. As he never thanked those who relieved, so neither did he complain of the injustice of those who struck him. And no other answer could the governor obtain to his interrogatories, but his usual denunciation of "Woe, woe to Jerusalem !" which he still continued to proclaim through the city, but especially during the festivals, when his manner became more earnest, and the tone of his voice louder. At length, on the commencement of the siege, he ascended the walls, and, in a more powerful voice than ever, exclaimed, "Woe, woe to this city, this temple, and this people !" And then, with a presentment of his own death, added," Woe, woe to myself "' he had scarcely uttered these words when a stone from one of the Roman engines killed him on the spot.
 

LittleLambofJesus

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The site first starts off with this preface concerning that event:

"I consider the Prophecy relative to the destruction of the Jewish nation,
if there were nothing else to support Christianity, as absolutely irresistible."
(Mr. Erskine's Speech, at the Trial of Williams, for publishing Paine's Age of Reason)​
PREFACE​

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. --
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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The first "sign" that is shown happening concerns meteor resembling a sword. Surely a sight like this would have been seen my a multitude of people :confused:

1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year."
This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.
 
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brinny

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I have been reading thru this site again and I am still wondering if these events that Josephus wrote about actually occurred

Is there anything written elsewhere by other witnesses during this period of the Jewish uprising before the coming of the Roman army in ad70?

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Our Lord proceeded, "And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." [6]- Josephus has collected the chief of these portents together, and introduces his account by a reflection on the strangeness of that infatuation, which could induce his countrymen to give credit to impostors, and unfounded reports, whilst they disregarded the divine admonitions, confirmed, as he asserts they Were, by the following extraordinary signs :

1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year." This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.

2. "On the eighth of the month Zanthicus, (before the feast of unleavened bread) at the ninth hour of the night, there shone round about the altar, and the circumjacent buildings of the temple, a light equal to the brightness of the day, which continued for the space of half an hour." This could not be the effect of lightning, nor of a vivid aurora borealis, for it was confined to a particular spoil and the light shone unintermittedly thirty minutes.

3. "As the High Priest were leading a heifer to the altar to be sacrificed, she brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple." Such is the strange account given by the historian. Some may regard it as a "Grecian fable," while others may think that they discern in this prodigy a miraculous rebuke of Jewish infidelity and impiety, for rejecting the ANTITYPICAL Lamb, who had offered Up Himself as an atonement, "once for all," and who, by thus completely fulfilling their design, had virtually abrogated the Levitical sacrifices.

However this may be, the circumstances of the prodigy are remarkable. It did not occur in an obscure part of the city, but in the temple ; not at an ordinary time, but at the passover, the season of our LORD'S crucifixion in the presence, not of the vulgar merely, but of the High Priests and their attendants, and when they were leading the sacrifice to the altar.

4. "' About the sixth hour of the night, the eastern gate of the temple was seen to open without human assistance." When the guards informed the Curator of this event, he sent men to assist them in shutting it, who with great difficulty succeeded. -- This gate, as hath been observed already, 'Was of solid brass, and required twenty men to close it every evening. It could not have been opened by a "strong gust of wind," or a slight earthquake;" for Josephus says, it was secured by iron bolts And bars, which were let down into a large threshold; consisting of one entire stone." [8]

5. "Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the Setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem. " Neither could this portentous spectacle be occasioned by the aurora borealis, for it occurred before the setting of the sun ; or merely the fancy of a few villagers, gazing at the heavens, for it was seen in various parts of the country.

6. "At the subsequent feast of Pentecost, while the priests were going, by night, into the inner, temple to perform their customary ministrations, they first felt, as they said, a shaking, accompanied by an indistinct murmuring, and afterwards voices as of a multitude, saying, in a distinct and earnest manner, "LET US DEPART HENCE." This gradation will remind the reader of that awful transaction, which the feast of Pentecost *as principally instituted to commemorate.

First, a shaking was heard ; this would naturally induce the priests to listen : an unintelligible murmur succeeds; this would more powerfully arrest their attention, and while it was thus awakened arid fixed, they heard, says Josephus, the voices as of a multitude, distinctly pronouncing the words "LET US DEPART HENCE." -- And accordingly, before the period for celebrating this feast returned, the Jewish war had commenced, and in the space of three years afterwards, Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army, the temple converted into a citadel, and its sacred courts streaming with the blood of human victims.

7. As the last and most fearful omen, Josephus relates that one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a rustic of the lower class, during the Feast of Tabernacles, suddenly exclaimed in the temple, "A voice from the east a voice from the west -- a voice from the four winds- a voice against Jerusalem and the temple -- a voice against bridegrooms and brides -- a voice against the whole people !"

These words he incessantly proclaimed aloud both day and night, through all the streets of Jerusalem, for seven years and five months together, commencing at a time (A. D. 62) when the city was in a state of peace, and overflowing with prosperity, and terminating amidst the horrors of the siege. This disturber, having excited the attention of the magistracy, was brought before Albinus the Roman governor, who commanded that he should be scourged. But the severest stripes drew from him neither tears nor supplications. As he never thanked those who relieved, so neither did he complain of the injustice of those who struck him. And no other answer could the governor obtain to his interrogatories, but his usual denunciation of "Woe, woe to Jerusalem !" which he still continued to proclaim through the city, but especially during the festivals, when his manner became more earnest, and the tone of his voice louder. At length, on the commencement of the siege, he ascended the walls, and, in a more powerful voice than ever, exclaimed, "Woe, woe to this city, this temple, and this people !" And then, with a presentment of his own death, added," Woe, woe to myself "' he had scarcely uttered these words when a stone from one of the Roman engines killed him on the spot.

Interesting. I've never read Josephus.
 
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Standing Up

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Why would he record it, if it weren't true? Maybe he embellished a bit (was the comet really in the precise shape of a sword), but why speak to it? Was he trying to appease his later Roman bosses, trying to explain the mind-boggling world change from the perceived apple of Eye to the core?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Interesting. I've never read Josephus.
I have just skimmed over a lot of his writings, but I may to read this more in depth when I have time
Why would he record it, if it weren't true? Maybe he embellished a bit (was the comet really in the precise shape of a sword), but why speak to it? Was he trying to appease his later Roman bosses, trying to explain the mind-boggling world change from the perceived apple of Eye to the core?
Sounds good to me :thumbsup:

Here is the 2nd one.
What makes this interesting is a "half hour" time period mentioned in Reve 8:1

2. "On the eighth of the month Zanthicus, (before the feast of unleavened bread) at the ninth hour of the night, there shone round about the altar, and the circumjacent buildings of the temple, a light equal to the brightness of the day, which continued for the space of half an hour." This could not be the effect of lightning, nor of a vivid aurora borealis, for it was confined to a particular spoil and the light shone unintermittedly thirty minutes.

Reve 8:1 And when it opens the seventh seal, became a hush/sigh <4602> in the heaven as half-hour

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! all of flesh from faces of YHVH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him
[Zeph 1:7/Reve 8:1]
 
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Deaver

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I have been reading thru this site again and I am still wondering if these events that Josephus wrote about actually occurred.

If you are interested in the works of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, go to this website:

Josephus.org - The Flavius Josephus Home Page


From their website, “For centuries Josephus' works were more widely read in Europe than any book other than the Bible. They are an invaluable eye-witness to a momentous turning point in Judaism, Christianity, and Western civilization.”
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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If you are interested in the works of the Jewish historian Flavius Josephus, go to this website:

Josephus.org - The Flavius Josephus Home Page


From their website, “For centuries Josephus' works were more widely read in Europe than any book other than the Bible. They are an invaluable eye-witness to a momentous turning point in Judaism, Christianity, and Western civilization.”
Thanks for the link :thumbsup:
I would like to add that to this other thread if it is ok with you [or you could post it on there if ya like :)]

http://www.christianforums.com/t7033640/
Is Josephus considered a reliable Historian?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Now this one is really bizarre! :eek:

3. "As the High Priest were leading a heifer to the altar to be sacrificed, she brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple." Such is the strange account given by the historian. Some may regard it as a "Grecian fable," while others may think that they discern in this prodigy a miraculous rebuke of Jewish infidelity and impiety, for rejecting the ANTITYPICAL Lamb, who had offered Up Himself as an atonement, "once for all," and who, by thus completely fulfilling their design, had virtually abrogated the Levitical sacrifices.

However this may be, the circumstances of the prodigy are remarkable. It did not occur in an obscure part of the city, but in the temple ; not at an ordinary time, but at the passover, the season of our LORD'S crucifixion in the presence, not of the vulgar merely, but of the High Priests and their attendants, and when they were leading the sacrifice to the altar.
 
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Deaver

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Standing Up

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I have just skimmed over a lot of his writings, but I may to read this more in depth when I have time
Sounds good to me :thumbsup:

Here is the 2nd one.
What makes this interesting is a "half hour" time period mentioned in Reve 8:1

2. "On the eighth of the month Zanthicus, (before the feast of unleavened bread) at the ninth hour of the night, there shone round about the altar, and the circumjacent buildings of the temple, a light equal to the brightness of the day, which continued for the space of half an hour." This could not be the effect of lightning, nor of a vivid aurora borealis, for it was confined to a particular spoil and the light shone unintermittedly thirty minutes.

Reve 8:1 And when it opens the seventh seal, became a hush/sigh <4602> in the heaven as half-hour

Zechariah 2:13 Be-hushed! all of flesh from faces of YHVH, that He is roused from habitation of holiness of Him
[Zeph 1:7/Reve 8:1]


So, you're trying to tie out Josephus and John?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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So, you're trying to tie out Josephus and John?
From what I am reading on that site, I could probably tie in the whole Olivet Discourse and John's Revelation with Josephus :)

Here is #4:

4. "'About the sixth hour of the night, the eastern gate of the temple was seen to open without human assistance." When the guards informed the Curator of this event, he sent men to assist them in shutting it, who with great difficulty succeeded. --
This gate, as hath been observed already, 'Was of solid brass, and required twenty men to close it every evening. It could not have been opened by a "strong gust of wind," or a slight earthquake;" for Josephus says, it was secured by iron bolts And bars, which were let down into a large threshold; consisting of one entire stone." [8]
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Should be interesting.
Now this is really interesting.
This resembles the event in 2 Kings 6 when Elisha asked God to open up the eyes of a lad and he saw horses and chariots of fire.
Revelation 18:13 also mentions horses and chariots, perhaps going back to the event of the Red Sea parting in Exodus. Pretty fascinating!

5. "Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem."
Neither could this portentous spectacle be occasioned by the aurora borealis, for it occurred before the setting of the sun ; or merely the fancy of a few villagers, gazing at the heavens, for it was seen in various parts of the country.

Rotherham) 2 Kings 6:17 Then prayed Elisha, and said, O Yahweh! open, I beseech thee, his eyes, that he may see.
And Yahweh opened the eyes of the young man, and he saw, and lo! the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire, round about Elisha.

Reve 18:13 and cinnamon and incenses and attars and frankincense and wine and oil and flour and grain and beasts and flocks and of horses and of chariots and of bodies and souls of men.
[Exodus 15:19]
 
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From what I am reading on that site, I could probably tie in the whole Olivet Discourse and John's Revelation with Josephus :)

Here is #4:

4. "'About the sixth hour of the night, the eastern gate of the temple was seen to open without human assistance." When the guards informed the Curator of this event, he sent men to assist them in shutting it, who with great difficulty succeeded. --
This gate, as hath been observed already, 'Was of solid brass, and required twenty men to close it every evening. It could not have been opened by a "strong gust of wind," or a slight earthquake;" for Josephus says, it was secured by iron bolts And bars, which were let down into a large threshold; consisting of one entire stone." [8]

I can see how most of the Olivet discourse would work, but all?

So would you place the writing of Rev. prior to 70ad?
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I can see how most of the Olivet discourse would work, but all?

So would you place the writing of Rev. prior to 70ad?
I believe Preterists date it pre-ad70 while Fururists date it post-ad70. I think what is more important is what the book is symbolizing IMHO
Here is an old discussion on it:

http://www.christianforums.com/t5933825/
Dating of Revelation
17th August 2007, 11:39 AM

As I have been reading many articles, books, essays on eschatology, one things seems very obvious as to how we can properly interpret and understand the book of Revelation and that is uncovering it's date of authorship.

From what I can understand there are two options.

1. Post 70 AD
2. Pre 70 AD

Post 70 AD authorship and we are looking at all of Revelation to be future.

Pre 70 AD authorship and we have to seriously contend with the events prior to and with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Holy Temple and how it relates to prophetic and apocalyptic language used by Christ, Paul, John and Daniel and a whole list of apocalyptic language throught out the Old Testament.

Has the dating of revelation effected your eschatological views if so how and what evidence did you use to come to your conclusion.
 
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razeontherock

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Fascinating stuff, but let's not forget to read Revelation in the light of what John's students had to say! It is a present reality for the life of the believer. When we can see what God is up to, we can better co-operate with Him ...

Anyway, Josephus. I have no idea what to make of the guy. Some people here are violently allergic to anything he wrote, and I don't know why. Whether these events were vivid imagination or fact I have no idea, but it is certain that not only Judaism, but also Christianity purged itself of anything linking one to the other, or giving viability to this particular opponent. This process was complete by AD 150.

Personally, I'd be really interested in what James had to say! Apparently he was leading the Liturgy of first Jewish Temple worship, and then Christian worship in the same Temple.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Fascinating stuff, but let's not forget to read Revelation in the light of what John's students had to say! It is a present reality for the life of the believer. When we can see what God is up to, we can better co-operate with Him ...

Anyway, Josephus. I have no idea what to make of the guy. Some people here are violently allergic to anything he wrote, and I don't know why. Whether these events were vivid imagination or fact I have no idea, but it is certain that not only Judaism, but also Christianity purged itself of anything linking one to the other, or giving viability to this particular opponent. This process was complete by AD 150.

Personally, I'd be really interested in what James had to say! Apparently he was leading the Liturgy of first Jewish Temple worship, and then Christian worship in the same Temple.
That would be interesting and thanks for that info bro :wave:
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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Here Josephus brings up the event of Pentecost which is described in Acts 2 of the NT of the Bible:

6. "At the subsequent feast of Pentecost, while the priests were going, by night, into the inner, temple to perform their customary ministrations, they first felt, as they said, a shaking, accompanied by an indistinct murmuring, and afterwards voices as of a multitude, saying, in a distinct and earnest manner, "LET US DEPART HENCE."

This gradation will remind the reader of that awful transaction, which the feast of Pentecost *as principally instituted to commemorate. First, a shaking was heard ; this would naturally induce the priests to listen : an unintelligible murmur succeeds; this would more powerfully arrest their attention, and while it was thus awakened arid fixed, they heard, says Josephus, the voices as of a multitude, distinctly pronouncing the words "LET US DEPART HENCE." --

And accordingly, before the period for celebrating this feast returned, the Jewish war had commenced, and in the space of three years afterwards, Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army, the temple converted into a citadel, and its sacred courts streaming with the blood of human victims.
 
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