Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles

[brinny]

Im adding a poll on this one folks

Tishri, are you referring to the Torah or the Mishneh Torah?

 

[yedida]

Please note Tishri that the ones that are causing the most problems have refused to vote, even while posting their opinions here.

I think with this thread and the others that are current regarding this that it is obvious that most that come here believe that Torah is for today and it is for righteous Jews and Gentiles who believe that Yeshua is Messiah.

Those who do not believe this should not be allowed to hold the Torah scroll and post freely here, this includes both Jew and Gentiles.

Perhaps a 'Hebrew Roots' forum needs to be made and not as a sub-forum of this one?


Jewish pride and Gentile superiority should not be allowed to steer the conversations in here any longer. Until this is addressed there will not be peaceful discussions.

This is so well spoken!!!

 

[Yahudim]

Tishri, are you referring to the Torah or the Mishneh Torah?

Genesis thru Deuteronomy, Torah

 

[brinny]

Genesis thru Deuteronomy, Torah

Thank you kindly

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Evangelism has nothing to do with observing the Torah of Moshe. A Jew who comes out of worldly Judaism would have that kind of baggage. A Gentile who comes out of the world, or Christianity would have that kind of baggage. The baggage is not the focus. It's the residue. The focus is Yeshua, who he is, what he did, and what he will do. None of that has to do with Jews or Gentiles observing the Torah given Moshe.

Acts 10
Gentiles Hear the Good News

34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

(And here is the description of the good news that was preached)

37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."


​

The WORD God sent to Yisrael, preached good news and peace through Yeshua Messiah. Peter says Yisrael knew 'what happened' begining from Galilee after John: God anointed Yeshua Messiah as King of Yisrael with the Holy Spirit and power. Yeshua went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was in him. And the disciples witnessed all he did, everywhere. How Yisrael put him to death by crusifiction, and how God raised him on the third day and made him to appear to the disciples. Who he commanded to preach and testify; that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets state that everyone who believes in Him receives forgivness of sins through his name.

THIS is what we are to be witnessing. It has nothing to do with ALL gentiles becoming Torah observant through the Spirit. Our message, our witness is (he is, he did, he will do) that Yeshua is King of Yisrael (who he is), He came testifying about himself, that he would die and be raised and be the one whom the Father is drawing all to, (what he did) so we can receive forgiveness of sins and raise us to eternal life. (what he will do)

There is your message bro. Gentiles and the Torah given through Moshe is not the message, nor are they bound together.
.

Well Spoken, Bruh

Thanks for sharing what you did. Reminds me of what the scriptures note when making clear it's by the BLOOD of the LAMB that we're truly made clean---permantely ( Ephesians 2:12-14 / Hebrews 10:18-20 Hebrews 12:23-25 / Hebrews 12 and Hebrews 13:11-13 , Hebrews 13:19-21 Hebrews 13 , 1 Peter 1:1-3, 1 John 1:6-8, etc)-and all of this goes together with noting how the Torah/Law is useful whenever one understands its proper context ( 1 John 3:3-5 , 1 Timothy 1:3-14 , Romans 7, Romans 6 , Romans 3:19-21/Romans 3, Romans 2:11-13 , and Acts 15:23-25 /Acts 15. etc). WIth Torah Observance (which all here agree with), I do think many times that clarification of terms makes a huge difference...as I've seen many Messianic Jewish ministries do what you noted when it comes to doing ministry amongst Jews and Gentiles---and noting that it's not so much about the Torah of Moshe that is to be the focus as much as it is the Torah that Yeshua advocated and that the apostles declared within the early church. I know you've spoken more in-depth about that very issue (as have others )in the thread you made entitled The Sukkah of David and the Davidic Covenant --and others as well which bring some of the points you made home:

• Torah Obsrevance...

• Birth of a Messianic Jew

• Our Torah is in full force!!

• Torah of the Spirit vs Torah of Moshe

As you said best elsewhere:

Messianic Judaism is defined as Jews who came to faith in Messiah/Christ. Some may not like how some of the Jews lean to far to the Christ side and some love the way some of the Jews lean way over to the Messiah(Jewish) side. But the movement is/was/should remain a movement of Jews who come to faith in Messiah. We have our ways of belief and worship, as we have come out of many different forms of 'Judaism'.


IMHO Gentiles can be called to serve right besides Jews in our 'synagouges', but they are not called to be us. They are known to have a very strong love for us and live as though they are us, BUT KNOW INSIDE that God made them just as saved and filled with the Spirit as us even though they are not Jews. Meaning they serve right besides and worship right besides, AS GENTILES.


But they have never been called to have our identity. They love our identity in God so much they live with and among us.

The lie comes when others, usually Gentiles, start to believe they were called to be considered Jews being called by God to be identified through the Torah given Moshe rather than the Torah given us all through Yeshua.


Where do I get all this? From the large body of world wide Jews who follow Messianic Judaism.




My point, the stated ministry and mission from two of the largest Messianic Jewish organizations in the world, having deep roots and ties in the Land, state nowhere about gentiles observing Torah as their focus. In fact it's not stated at all.

It's a movement of JEWS, about Jews who do not leave their Jewish heritage or worship for Church traditions, but continue to be Jewish in our love and observance to Yeshua and his commands.


What is put forth by many here in this forum is that Messianic Judaism is a Torah for Gentiles movement. That Gentiles can observe Messianic Judaism by following the Torah given Moshe. This is so far off from the statements of world wide Messianic Jews.


It's not about creating a second class citizen, that would be the devils thought. It's about letting a Jew be the Jew he was called and made, and letting Gentiles be the holy child of Abraham they were called to be. Male and Female, Jew and Gentile, One flesh. Has NOTHING to do with Gentiles being commanded to observe as Jews. Unless your talking about the commands Yeshua gave as the Word of God spoken in the flesh. Those we are commanded to follow as Torah.

The bible discusses different instructions or torah for different people in different environments and Different covenants. Different sacrifices and methods from the tabernacle wilderness to the first temple, to the 2nd and different priesthoods etc.

This is not to say- many instructions involving our relationship with Hashem and humanity are identical throughout the ages.

The NT scriptures are clear that the new gentile believers in Yeshua were not required to adopt all practices of their fellow Jewish believers.

Part of me was thinking this even in regards to the poll asked on in the OP on whether or not one thinks the Torah is for all...as I think the question may need to be much more specific since terms and definitions often make a WORLD of difference when it comes to defining what is or isn't "Torah" (as mentioned before in #108 , #109 and #110 ).

For if what's defined as "Torah" is said to the entire Law of Moses and one says that it is the Mosaic Code that all (Gentiles/Jews) are meant to walk in for today, I'd say "NO" since that's not what occurred within scripture (as have many other Messianic Jews over the years at various places)----and it's definately not what I heard advocated by mainstream Messianic Judaism as well as those that began the 1960/1970's Messianic Jewish movement. However, if someone were to define Torah as those Laws/Commandments that the Lord advocated and that the apostles taught to the Jews/Gentiles, then I'd say "Yes, Torah is for EVERYONE" since the Torah being discussed is clearly within what the New Covenant defines as the Torah for this era we've lived in since the arrival of the Messiah. For Messianic Jewish fellowships I'm thinking of that give a face to that reality, I'm reminded of "Chosen People" ministries which is led by a man known as Lawrence Hirsh. Where one can go for more is to Lawrence Hirsch | Celebrate Messiah or see the article entitled [PDF] Jesus-Believing Jews in Australia: Celebrate Messiah as a Case Study. ..and in addition to that:

• Muchan Speakers
• Articles | Chosen People Ministries
• Evangelism | Chosen People Ministries
• Lawrence and Louise Hirsch | Chosen People Ministries

They do alot of street evangelism amongst those in rough situations, be it Jew or Gentile, and they've done much for the Kingdom in keeping things focused upon the simple truth of who Yeshua is.....advocating the Torah in proper observance and showing what it means to truly love the Law of God while having that impact that us for the sake of reaching others for Christ.

Many who often say "Torah is for everyone" look at the words of the apostles/Christ when they spoke on Torah and read into it their ideology of all aspects of the Mosaic Code as if that defined what the Torah is---and when they see others disagreeing with their definition, they can be quick to assume that those disagreeing are either not for Torah Observance or that they don't support the Torah. What they may fail to consider is that perhaps it is they that actually do not truly support the Torah. With the amount of threads that came up last year where the Mods had to repeatedly get involved/check others claiming to be "Torah Observant" and yet repeatedly going counter to what the Messianic Jewish SOP said as well as what most mainline Messianic Jewish organizations have advocated (i.e Support of Pauline thought, No Anti-Paul bashing like Tishri noted before, Torah Observance defined by Christ/the Apostles, Gentiles not being bound to keep the Mosaic Code as the Jews were, etc), it is interesting whenever people may go against that and yet still claim that it's the representation of what it means to be "Messianic." It's even more interesting when those doing so discuss on who should or shouldn't be allowed when many of the views discussed by themselves have been clearly outside the realm of what Messianic Judaism has taught.

Contra and others often noted it whenever they would indicate how many of the stances claimed as holding to the Torah scroll were really alien to what's actually taught within most Messianic Jewish circles....and much of it akin to what happens in many of the fringe groups that have been condemed by those within mainstream Messianic Judaism.

I've found to be rather BIG pity whenever other Gentiles learn of Messianic Judaism--and then assume that all others are not accepting of it for not walking in Torah Observance in the same manner as they may feel is necessary (i.e. mandatory observance of all of the Feasts, Keeping Kosher at all points, circumcision, trying to keep all of the Mosaic Law/Code, etc) when the mainstream Messianic Jewish organizations/councils have all noted CONSISTENTLY that anyone trying to make Gentiles become Jewish and vice versa are not reflecting what Yeshua was ever about.


With evangelism, what seems to often be the case is that those advocating for Torah Observance to be preached amongst the Gentiles are really advocating forms of observance that were condemned by numerous Jewish believers/Messianics in the early church, whether that be very specific forms of Ebionite Christianity or Judaizing (as discussed here in #156 , #160 , #101, and #177 )---and I don't know if many can see that.

Yeshua and who he is, what he did and what he does and will do for us ARE the gospel message, and eternal life if we believe. Nothing else should be testified to. As it has no real substance to the life in Messiah we are called to live.

The pattern of holiness found in our Torah is lived out in reality through the Spirit. Trying to live out the pattern as if the Spirit lead you there is crazy

Real

 

[Yahudim]

Please note Tishri that the ones that are causing the most problems have refused to vote, even while posting their opinions here.

I think with this thread and the others that are current regarding this that it is obvious that most that come here believe that Torah is for today and it is for righteous Jews and Gentiles who believe that Yeshua is Messiah.

Those who do not believe this should not be allowed to hold the Torah scroll and post freely here, this includes both Jew and Gentiles.

Perhaps a 'Hebrew Roots' forum needs to be made and not as a sub-forum of this one?


Jewish pride and Gentile superiority should not be allowed to steer the conversations in here any longer. Until this is addressed there will not be peaceful discussions.

DITTO! I could not agree more. Torah observance in the form of literal Torah obedience (within context, of course) should be the defining characteristic of a Messianic believer in this forum. Nor should we be lumped in with the Rabbinical Orthodox either.

We understand that there are both believing and non-believing Orthodox Jews that visit here. And we are fine with fellowshipping with them. But as a minority with such a radical departure from our core beliefs, the outcome of our cohabitation is the reason why you need to restructure the forum in the first place. I for one don't like to see them suspended or banned as have happened to some. My vote would be that we give them a place of their own, where they can fellowship and answer questions about Orthodoxy.

Peace

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I voted "for everyone" but also believe that Torah is a living, breathing, changing , alive document, so to speak. Our understanding of it grows, some parts become obsolete, we dont need it anymore and nobody observes them, actually they become harmful if observed.

Some parts become more clear, we understand them better
Most Jews i know share this position, and i trust it to be very reflective of our spiritual progress as humans...

Good perspective to have

 

[Gxg (G²)]

.negro means black, and gay means merry. We should use the words based on their current meaning, and heathen, as well as goyim is probably sounds offensive, esp in USA. There are less controversial ways to convey the point

Technically, the word "negro" is still used by others today depending on the circles you're in (including circles of Black culture)--and growing up/seeing it first hand, it was always interesting to see others say the term cannot be used. More was discussed on those terms in other discussions (seen here in #170 #206 #207 and #208 ).

With some terms, others tend to take ownership of them/make it their own as a way of counter-resistance ..and with the "goyim" term, many have seen it in the same way that "Jew" was once seen when it too carried deragatory tones in the era where being Jewish wasn't favorable--and others actually preferred to be called things other than that.

 

[Shimshon]

Part of me was thinking this even in regards to the poll asked on in the OP on whether or not one thinks the Torah is for all...as I think the question may need to be much more specific since terms and definitions often make a WORLD of difference when it comes to defining what is or isn't "Torah" (as mentioned before in #108 , #109 and #110 ).

Yes, that request was made by a few at the beginning of the thread, like #13, and #14. But, it seems Tishri made it vague on purpose, so the answer would be general/simple. This is why it was skewed to the TO side, AND the reason I will not participate in it. It was a rigged poll. Many see this, and after about 4 pages of expose this was the desired outcome all along #109

the way we apply Torah to our lives may differ but we are all on the same page that Torah is for everyone

so enough with the trying to define Torah for each other's groups and getting it wrong....let each person have their own convictions about Torah and dont try to lable them one way or another


just know that most here believe Torah has a place in everyone lives and leave it at that we are not all going to agree on everything detail but we do agree on a basic point

The poll was meant to show how we are all really alike, we love Torah, however we define it. So lets all get along!

We are going to have to get along 'together'. And you know what. I'm fine with it. But many are not fine with getting along with us. They want to strip our scroll and cast us away. They even seem to want to take the Jews out of Judaism. Redefining it to their own fantasy.

For if what's defined as "Torah" is said to the entire Law of Moses and one says that it is the Mosaic Code that all (Gentiles/Jews) are meant to walk in for today, I'd say "NO" since that's not what occurred within scripture (as have many other Messianic Jews over the years at various places)----and it's definately not what I heard advocated by mainstream Messianic Judaism as well as those that began the 1960/1970's Messianic Jewish movement.

Amen, that is what i've been saying all along. And if we have to share this forum with all shades of Messianics then so be it. But the chutzpah of trying to drive out the established community to reign supreme.

However, if someone were to define Torah as those Laws/Commandments that the Lord advocated and that the apostles taught to the Jews/Gentiles, then I'd say "Yes, Torah is for EVERYONE" since the Torah being discussed is clearly within what the New Covenant defines as the Torah for this era we've lived in since the arrival of the Messiah.

Exactly! It applies to all, and all of it is applicable and observable. Because it has nothing to do with the ark of the Lords covenant.

Many who often say "Torah is for everyone" look at the words of the apostles/Christ when they spoke on Torah and read into it their ideology of all aspects of the Mosaic Code as if that defined what the Torah is[---and when they see others disagreeing with their definition, they can be quick to assume that those disagreeing are either not for Torah Observance or that they don't support the Torah. What they may fail to consider is that perhaps it is they that actually do not truly support the Torah.

How true.

I've found to be rather BIG pity whenever other Gentiles learn of Messianic Judaism--and then assume that all others are not accepting of it for not walking in Torah Observance in the same manner as they may feel is necessary (i.e. mandatory observance of all of the Feasts, Keeping Kosher at all points, circumcision, trying to keep all of the Mosaic Law/Code, etc) when the mainstream Messianic Jewish organizations/councils have all noted CONSISTENTLY that anyone trying to make Gentiles become Jewish and vice versa are not reflecting what Yeshua was ever about.

And again, how true.


Keep on keeping them honest G!

 

[visionary]

Is Messianic Judaism for Jews or Gentiles?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Yes, that request was made by a few at the beginning of the thread, like #13, and #14. But, it seems Tishri made it vague on purpose, so the answer would be general/simple. This is why it was skewed to the TO side, AND the reason I will not participate in it. It was a rigged poll. Many see this, and after about 4 pages of expose this was the desired outcome all along #109

The poll was meant to show how we are all really alike, we love Torah, however we define it. So lets all get along!

Understood. I respect Tishri's mindset on the entire matter, especially considering her own story/background within Messianic Judaism and how well-traveled she is..and I wished others would able to go with that. As much as people say friction is over others disagreeing with one another/not having the same mindset, as said before, I truly think the central reason behind friction is the inability to disagree agreeably...and truly do as Proverbs notes when it comes to knowing how to dialouge, not cause strife, be respectful/patient and more concerned with how to encourage one another rather than making sure EVERYONE agrees with their own perspective--or else. When I used to be more so involved with things such as "discernment" blogs/"Christian Watchdog" organizations, I used to see all the time people claim others didn't listen to them because they loved "false teachings" they were calling out---but not many chose to consider that perhaps it was simply because they in their approach didn't really seem to show they cared for the person talked to---and they didn't know how to talk to others unless they first agreed fully with them (more shared here and here )

James 3:12-18

Two Kinds of Wisdom

13 Who is wise and understanding among you? Let them show it by their good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, demonic. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers

James 4:11
11 Brothers and sisters, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against a brother or sister[d] or judges them speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. 12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?
​

I'm certain that in the times James lived in, there were alot of fights occurring and others thinking of one another "If we just agreed the way I think, we'd get along"--and even thinking less of the other's walk with the Lord or feeling like they didn't honor their Jewish heritage as much as the other--but James made clear it was really an issue of knowing how to interact that was central.

We are going to have to get along 'together'. And you know what. I'm fine with it. But many are not fine with getting along with us. They want to strip our scroll and cast us away. They even seem to want to take the Jews out of Judaism. Redefining it to their own fantasy.

Sad to see it occurring--and other Messianics have noted it as well....and have since left when it seemed that the primary reason of Messianic Judaism was forgotten: To be a Outreach to those who are Jews/bring them to Messiah. I get really grieved whenever I hear of Jews saying they don't want to be apart of the MJish movement and saying it had nothing to do with what was discussed about "Law/Torah"--but rather everything to do with how they didn't really see a focus on the person of Yeshua and His finished work at the Cross...and reaching others were they were.

How is it we can have sharp debates about what aspect of the Torah one is to keep---and yet seldom have discussions where we all encourage one another/ask for how we can pray for each other? How is it we can easily go to war with one another over Kosher/the level one's comfortable with---and yet never discuss REAL life issues such as whether or not we're reaching the homeless/those trapped in poverty, evangelism amongsts prostitutes/those addicted to drugs, movies we've seen and how to reach out to young adults amongst a host of other things we all see in everyday life.

Acts 2:41-43

The Fellowship of the Believers

42They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer. 43Everyone was filled with awe, and many wonders and miraculous signs were done by the apostles. 44All the believers were together and had everything in common. 45Selling their possessions and goods, they gave to anyone as he had need. 46Every day they continued to meet together in the temple courts. They broke bread in their homes and ate together with glad and sincere hearts, 47praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people.

Acts 13:52
And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

Romans 15:4-6 5May the God who gives endurance and encouragement give you a spirit of unity among yourselves as you follow Christ Jesus, 6so that with one heart and mouth you may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
​

Ephesians 4:2-4/
2Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace.

Ephesians 4:29-31/
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice.

Ephesians 5:17-19 /
17Therefore do not be foolish, but understand what the Lord's will is. 18Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit. 19Speak to one another with psalms, hymns and spiritual songs. Sing and make music in your heart to the Lord, 20always giving thanks to God the Father for everything, in the name of our Lord
Jesus Christ.

​

..................

I really appreciate threads made based in fellowship, as others have tried to make (noted here #80 ) but never got alot of participation...and I think a good deal of change can/always will begin with how much we can be real with each other/involved----and sadly, the farthest most people will go online is through exchanges via a keyboard...rather than going the extra mile/"getting in the trenches" with each other offline and seeing how much people experience REAL life...

That, and the fact that many of us can never laugh together----so doubtful many times that one can ever expect growing with each other together. Some things would be cured if we could all learn to not take things so seriously at times....and just chill, as many times it's really not that deep. And when it comes to being light-hearted, it's amazing to see how much more easier it is to get through life...and with people...

Proverbs 15:13
A happy heart makes the face cheerful, but heartache crushes the spirit.

Proverbs 15:15
All the days of the oppressed are wretched, but the cheerful heart has a continual feast

Proverbs 15:30
A cheerful look brings joy to the heart, and good news gives health to the bones.

Proverbs 17:22
A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a crushed spirit dries up the bones.
​

It's amazing much of a difference getting to know/walk with people can change many of the things others have often thought were never able to be changed...


Differences should go to the wayside when one is in need of comfort. And we should be rejoicing with those who rejoice despite our differences.


:Seeing where we used to be, I'm very glad for the opportunity to have gotten to get to know you better intimately---as the fact that we can laugh together makes a significant difference when it comes to what is viewed as important or not. And the fact that we're able to truly lift one another up via prayer/intercession and break bread makes a significant difference as well. For really, one cannot argue with another if they're praying for them---and how many things do we have to agree on before we can actually lift one another up as we're commanded to in the Word ( Colossians 4:11-13 / /Ephesians 6:17-19/ , John 13:1 , John 17:20-22 //etc)? How many things do we have to agree with each other on before we can worship the Lord through our interactions by showing we're concerned for the parts of His body---and choosing to "weep with those who weep/rejoice with those who rejoice" ( Romans 12:14-16 /1 Corinthians 12:25-27/ )?

Galatians 6:2
Carry each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Psalm 133

A song of ascents. Of David.

1 How good and pleasant it is
when brothers live together in unity! 2 It is like precious oil poured on the head, running down on the beard,
running down on Aaron's beard,
down upon the collar of his robes.
3 It is as if the dew of Hermon
were falling on Mount Zion.

1 Thessalonians 5:11
Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.
1 Thessalonians 5:10-12

Hebrews 10:24-26/
4And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. 25Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.
​

Amen, that is what i've been saying all along. And if we have to share this forum with all shades of Messianics then so be it. But the chutzpah of trying to drive out the established community to reign supreme.

There is the dynamic that what defines the "Established" community can vary from season to season---and where the makeup at one point can be what's celebrated in Mainstream Messianic Judaism, it can change to where most of the minority views are the ones in focus. But if going off the SOP and what the founders of Messianic Judaism have noted, it is necessary to consider that much of what happens here on the forum (as Contra noted best) can be odd when seeing what is really taught in MJish camps overall.

Exactly! It applies to all, and all of it is applicable and observable. Because it has nothing to do with the ark of the Lords covenant.

The Lord's covenant was pretty slammin, though--and many awesome things can be learned when studying the Lords heart on it. To those who are Ethopian Jewish, I'm thankful for their perspectives on it (as shared before )

How true.

And again, how true.


Keep on keeping them honest G!

Thanks for the encouragment, Bruh. Move love in Messiah

 

[Gxg (G²)]

The poll was meant to show how we are all really alike, we love Torah, however we define it. So lets all get along!

We are going to have to get along 'together'. And you know what. I'm fine with it.

Tell your wife I said what's up and that I miss her on the boards. Wishing ya'll the best. Gotta hang sometime when able

 

[Shimshon]

Is Messianic Judaism for Jews or Gentiles?

Both. But we (Messianic Jews) do not (re)define Messianic Judaism the way you have.

 

[Shimshon]

Tell your wife I said what's up and that I miss her on the boards. Wishing ya'll the best. Gotta hang sometime when able

Most definitely!

 

[visionary]

Both. But we (Messianic Jews) do not (re)define Messianic Judaism the way you have.

Yep.. and I am sure that some Messianic Jews who are Torah observant would not state some of the thing you have said in regards to the Torah or MJ either.

 

[Yahudim]

Shalom and Fair Greetings to my Brothers, Shimshon and Easy G, and to All Messianics in this Forum,

Easy G, having read your recent post to me, I find much that we agree upon. The same is true of the posts you exchanged with my dear friend and brother Shimshon. So I took it upon myself to answer your conciliatory tone with action. I have spent some time in study of the posts that gave as links in support of your position. In that I only had all night, I could not study, or for that matter even read them all! But I am confident that I got the gist of it. (I mean really G. You are an accomplished typist which is a great blessing! But you do go on and on. Some of us appreciate, when appropriate, a 'bottom line' approach. Please don't be offended. This isn't a dig. I'm just saying...) This is one of those places where I wish we still had the old ROFL smiley face.

So after some contemplation and consideration, this is what came to mind as an answer. (Please note: This really is kind of a 'bottom line' approach. You should see the study. )

Your collective understanding seems to be that there are two separate covenants that are now available to join. The 'old' covenant of Moshe or Israel, and then the 'new' covenant of Y'shua. And in a way you are right! But in another, even more important way, I believe you are in error. Please allow me to explain. And I would also ask that you would fully consider what I say here before you respond.

I too see the difference of which you speak. But I do not agree that it is an 'either/or' choice. At least, not in the way you describe. The Only Creator made a covenant with man (Adam). He was given charge of everything and in exchange was directed not to partake of the fruit that contained the knowledge of evil. (Pretty sweet deal, huh?) But Adam did and we know the result. I've got a bulletin for you. That covenant still stands. Observe:

1. Covenant with Adam.
2. Covenant with Noah
3. Covenant with Abraham
4. Covenant with Moses
5. Covenant with David
6. Covenant with Y'shua
7. Covenant with All

The Father still does not want us partaking of evil and even though it happened with Adam, He promised a Seed to bruise the head of the serpent, the very personification of evil.
He cleansed the world of evil and through Noah promised not to flood it again.
He promised the Seed would come through the fruitful loins of Abraham, to bless all the families of the world.
He promised the Redeemer through the Mosaic covenant with Israel.
He promised the Redeemer to come through the House of David.
He promised the Redeemer sorrow, death, resurrection and the right to make a new covenant of life in His Name.
He promised life and salvation to ALL that would believe on His Son in obedience.

Every one of these covenants has common threads or themes that runs through them all:

• Each one contains a promise of a Redeemer as well as other provisions.
• Every one of these covenants is still in effect today.
• Each one is progressive and stands upon the promises and provisions of the preceding ones.
• Every one of these covenants has provisions that we, as covenant recipients, are responsible for today.

Accepting the promises made to Noah and his descendants does not abrogate our responsibility to reject the knowledge of evil any more than it nullifies the promise of the Redeemer to redeem us and bring us back to the garden.
Accepting the promises of the covenant of fruitfulness made to Abraham did not abrogate the promise of Noah to live in righteousness, walk in His ways and keep His commandments. Are you seeing a pattern here?

If you doubt this assessment, please review the seven seals in the Revelation. Each covenant is sealed. So the seals in the Revelation are the judgements on those that have a broken covenant relationship with Him. Each seal judgement is the antithesis of the promise of each covenant it represents. For instance: Notice the fourth one that represents the covenant of Israel given to Moshe. Torah points to and defines sin. The wages of sin is... (drum roll please) Death. THAT is what the letter of the Law (Torah) means. But it's promise is the Redeemer and Life for all those that keep it - in Faith, Love and Obedience!

When it comes to intent...

Anyway, I think what we actually disagree on is very small. You agree that we still should literally not commit adultery for instance, right? That's not legalistic in your sight is it?

I tend to think that ALL covenant provisions are legalistic by nature. Think specific. When Y'shus tells us that we are saved by the grace of the the Father, I take that in a very literal and legalistic fashion. When He tells us to love one another, I take that as very literal and legalistic too. Literal in terms of the context and intent of the statement. Legalistic in the sense that there are very real consequences to not following His example and His instruction in these matters. Remember, intent is a legal concept by nature.

You have based much of your position on the intent of the heart. I agree. If I don't murder you solely because I don't want to burn, then I grant your point. I have commited murder in my heart. But if my intent is not to murder you because I am attempting to love you even as He loves you - I still literally and legalistically don't get to murder you. There are still consequences if I do.

You seem to be saying it's all about why. There are some that take that to mean, "Well, I murdered him. It just happened. But I see that I was wrong and I repent. Forgive me?" My response would be, "Of course I forgive you. But you still murdered him. So you will still have to face the consequences. Book 'em Danno..."

Paul was very careful to remind us all, that we are adopted under the Covenant of Israel. Everyone I know takes that to mean the Law of Moshe; Torah. The confusion came in when people tried to separate the Law of Moshe from the Traditions of the Pharisees and got it wrong. In Acts 15, when the Pharisees demanded that the gentiles undergo circumcision before they could walk in the ways of Torah, they were demanding that they convert to Judaism. But the conversion that they were really demanding was not to Yah, but to the authority of the leaders of Israel. They were demanding that the gentile believers follow the traditions and customs of the leaders of Israel, before they could follow the instructions of Yah (Torah).

So to finally answer the poll question in detail, YES, the same Torah is for both Jews and Gentiles alike and Yes, there are different provisions for each group, just as there are different provisions for those that live in the land and do not. But the concept that those that are saved by faith in Y'shua are no longer responsible to the provisions of the covenant of Israel (Torah) is a dangerous rejection of the very Teacher that they claim to follow. Never did Y'shua claim anything of the sort. In fact, He specifically warned against this very thing.

Humbly Offered in His Love,
Phillip

 

[ananda]

... YES, the same Torah is for both Jews and Gentiles alike and Yes, there are different provisions for each group, just as there are different provisions for those that live in the land and do not. But the concept that those that are saved by faith in Y'shua are no longer responsible to the provisions of the covenant of Israel (Torah) is a dangerous rejection of the very Teacher that they claim to follow. Never did Y'shua claim anything of the sort. In fact, He specifically warned against this very thing.

Humbly Offered in His Love,
Phillip

Thanks for your insights, I enjoyed reading your post

 

[visionary]

Got to cross the Jordan river... It is not wise to be like Dan and stay on the other side and set up a worship temple.

 

[yedida]

Shalom and Fair Greetings to my Brothers, Shimshon and Easy G, and to All Messianics in this Forum,

Easy G, having read your recent post to me, I find much that we agree upon. The same is true of the posts you exchanged with my dear friend and brother Shimshon. So I took it upon myself to answer your conciliatory tone with action. I have spent some time in study of the posts that gave as links in support of your position. In that I only had all night, I could not study, or for that matter even read them all! But I am confident that I got the gist of it. (I mean really G. You are an accomplished typist which is a great blessing! But you do go on and on. Some of us appreciate, when appropriate, a 'bottom line' approach. Please don't be offended. This isn't a dig. I'm just saying...) This is one of those places where I wish we still had the old ROFL smiley face.

So after some contemplation and consideration, this is what came to mind as an answer. (Please note: This really is kind of a 'bottom line' approach. You should see the study. )

Your collective understanding seems to be that there are two separate covenants that are now available to join. The 'old' covenant of Moshe or Israel, and then the 'new' covenant of Y'shua. And in a way you are right! But in another, even more important way, I believe you are in error. Please allow me to explain. And I would also ask that you would fully consider what I say here before you respond.

I too see the difference of which you speak. But I do not agree that it is an 'either/or' choice. At least, not in the way you describe. The Only Creator made a covenant with man (Adam). He was given charge of everything and in exchange was directed not to partake of the fruit that contained the knowledge of evil. (Pretty sweet deal, huh?) But Adam did and we know the result. I've got a bulletin for you. That covenant still stands. Observe:

1. Covenant with Adam.
2. Covenant with Noah
3. Covenant with Abraham
4. Covenant with Moses
5. Covenant with David
6. Covenant with Y'shua
7. Covenant with All

The Father still does not want us partaking of evil and even though it happened with Adam, He promised a Seed to bruise the head of the serpent, the very personification of evil.
He cleansed the world of evil and through Noah promised not to flood it again.
He promised the Seed would come through the fruitful loins of Abraham, to bless all the families of the world.
He promised the Redeemer through the Mosaic covenant with Israel.
He promised the Redeemer to come through the House of David.
He promised the Redeemer sorrow, death, resurrection and the right to make a new covenant of life in His Name.
He promised life and salvation to ALL that would believe on His Son in obedience.

Every one of these covenants has common threads or themes that runs through them all:

• Each one contains a promise of a Redeemer as well as other provisions.
• Every one of these covenants is still in effect today.
• Each one is progressive and stands upon the promises and provisions of the preceding ones.
• Every one of these covenants has provisions that we, as covenant recipients, are responsible for today.

Accepting the promises made to Noah and his descendants does not abrogate our responsibility to reject the knowledge of evil any more than it nullifies the promise of the Redeemer to redeem us and bring us back to the garden.
Accepting the promises of the covenant of fruitfulness made to Abraham did not abrogate the promise of Noah to live in righteousness, walk in His ways and keep His commandments. Are you seeing a pattern here?

If you doubt this assessment, please review the seven seals in the Revelation. Each covenant is sealed. So the seals in the Revelation are the judgements on those that have a broken covenant relationship with Him. Each seal judgement is the antithesis of the promise of each covenant it represents. For instance: Notice the fourth one that represents the covenant of Israel given to Moshe. Torah points to and defines sin. The wages of sin is... (drum roll please) Death. THAT is what the letter of the Law (Torah) means. But it's promise is the Redeemer and Life for all those that keep it - in Faith, Love and Obedience!

When it comes to intent...

Anyway, I think what we actually disagree on is very small. You agree that we still should literally not commit adultery for instance, right? That's not legalistic in your sight is it?

I tend to think that ALL covenant provisions are legalistic by nature. Think specific. When Y'shus tells us that we are saved by the grace of the the Father, I take that in a very literal and legalistic fashion. When He tells us to love one another, I take that as very literal and legalistic too. Literal in terms of the context and intent of the statement. Legalistic in the sense that there are very real consequences to not following His example and His instruction in these matters. Remember, intent is a legal concept by nature.

You have based much of your position on the intent of the heart. I agree. If I don't murder you solely because I don't want to burn, then I grant your point. I have commited murder in my heart. But if my intent is not to murder you because I am attempting to love you even as He loves you - I still literally and legalistically don't get to murder you. There are still consequences if I do.

You seem to be saying it's all about why. There are some that take that to mean, "Well, I murdered him. It just happened. But I see that I was wrong and I repent. Forgive me?" My response would be, "Of course I forgive you. But you still murdered him. So you will still have to face the consequences. Book 'em Danno..."

Paul was very careful to remind us all, that we are adopted under the Covenant of Israel. Everyone I know takes that to mean the Law of Moshe; Torah. The confusion came in when people tried to separate the Law of Moshe from the Traditions of the Pharisees and got it wrong. In Acts 15, when the Pharisees demanded that the gentiles undergo circumcision before they could walk in the ways of Torah, they were demanding that they convert to Judaism. But the conversion that they were really demanding was not to Yah, but to the authority of the leaders of Israel. They were demanding that the gentile believers follow the traditions and customs of the leaders of Israel, before they could follow the instructions of Yah (Torah).

So to finally answer the poll question in detail, YES, the same Torah is for both Jews and Gentiles alike and Yes, there are different provisions for each group, just as there are different provisions for those that live in the land and do not. But the concept that those that are saved by faith in Y'shua are no longer responsible to the provisions of the covenant of Israel (Torah) is a dangerous rejection of the very Teacher that they claim to follow. Never did Y'shua claim anything of the sort. In fact, He specifically warned against this very thing.

Humbly Offered in His Love,
Phillip

Can I print this out to pass out to all the nay-sayers I run into? With credits of course to the point that you'd like them.....

 

[Yahudim]

Can I print this out to pass out to all the nay-sayers I run into? With credits of course to the point that you'd like them.....

There is no copyright on His truth, Dear. It is your to with as you like with my full consent. All glory to Him, remember?