Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles

[Lulav]

Shalom All,

I just got around to reading this thread, so if I am the squeaky wheel to which some referred, please be advised that I have indeed voted.

Blessings to All,
Phillip

No dear I was not referring to you, you hadn't even graced us with your returned presence yet. I was referring to a certain few who pop into the forum on and off to stir up the pot and tell gentiles that the Torah is not for them (and it varies why they believe this, for some it is because they are Jewish and don't want the gentiles doing what they believe is only for them, for others that are gentile they don't want to keep torah yet pretend to be Messianic). These are those who post on other threads and I just came from reading one were they all posted just a couple days ago (like a tag team) and openly stated this, along with that we were all Christians. They will not however put their name to the poll so it can be on record that they believe this way.

Please elaborate what you mean by "Torah". Thank you.

Hi Brinny, It really doesn't matter as this poll is for Messianic Jews and Gentiles only.

 

[Yahudim]

Same here, but we are in the process of re-vamping our subforums and are trying to define just what this, that and the other is; pretty much trying to define the point of the least that would still be acceptable to be considered a Messianic here in this forum. does that make any sense?

You are correct. It is the basics that are most important. Above I said this:

I agree that Sabbath and Holy Days, Niddah and Kosher observance are pretty universal in Messianic circles. The only point I was trying to make is that it's the literal, plain meaning of the text (p'sht) interpretation of Torah that gets us to that point in the first place. That's all I meant.

Do you think that other believers should decide for Messianics what being Torah observant means?

I should add that Torah observant is not the same as being Orthodox. I think that distinction is important too.

 

[Yahudim]

No dear I was not referring to you, you hadn't even graced us with your returned presence yet. I was referring to a certain few who pop into the forum on and off to stir up the pot and tell gentiles that the Torah is not for them (and it varies why they believe this, for some it is because they are Jewish and don't want the gentiles doing what they believe is only for them, for others that are gentile they don't want to keep torah yet pretend to be Messianic). These are those who post on other threads and I just came from reading one were they all posted just a couple days ago (like a tag team) and openly stated this, along with that we were all Christians. They will not however put their name to the poll so it can be on record that they believe this way.

Oh dear! Do you mean I squandered all of my squeakiness in response to some even squeakier anonymous, forum-jumping, tag-teaming, reticent ne'er-do-wells? I do hope that my squeakiness was not all for naught! You read the post. Thought?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Is God not the God of the Jews as well as the Gentiles? Yes He is. Actually, IMHO, as a result of Yeshua there is now only Jews, Christians and unbelievers. Between MJ and MG there should be no difference. Between MJ and Christian there should be no difference. All are one in Yeshua and in Yeshua all are free to be obedient to God's Law, and by that I mean the ten commandments and all of God's Law that Yeshua's coming did not obviate.

If interested (concerning the Lord's heart for all and all be unified in Him under one purpose), it may bless you to check out the folks with the International House of Prayer Movement (IHOP). It's based around what the Psalmist noted in Psalm 122.

Psalm 122

A song of ascents. Of David.
1 I rejoiced with those who said to me,
“Let us go to the house of the LORD.”
2 Our feet are standing
in your gates, Jerusalem.
3 Jerusalem is built like a city
that is closely compacted together.

4 That is where the tribes go up—
the tribes of the LORD—
to praise the name of the LORD
according to the statute given to Israel.
5 There stand the thrones for judgment,
the thrones of the house of David. 6 Pray for the peace of Jerusalem:

“May those who love you be secure.
7 May there be peace within your walls
and security within your citadels.”
8 For the sake of my family and friends,
I will say, “Peace be within you.”
​

9 For the sake of the house of the LORD our God,
I will seek your prosperity.


​

One aspect of their heart is soley for intercession for Israel (both Jew and Gentile trusting in Messiah)---as seen in a specific branch they have called the Israel Mandate, has it where people pray 24/7 for the peace of Jerusalem. Grew up working with others apart of the movement--and one of my friends I did worship sets with and who worked with them is currently in Israel now (seen here )....seeing the ways that the Lord is knitting His people together in Him.

Beautiful stuff, IMHO...and for more:

• Israel | GOD TV
• International House of Prayer : Israel Mandate
• Luther's Baggage: Israel Mandate conference 2009
• Daniel Juster - The Kansas City Israel Mandate Conference

In regards to the "Israel Mandate" organization, it was made for the specific purpose of mobilizing intercessors in the church worldwide to help establish houses of prayer for Israel/Jewish outreach. Their goals are being accomplished by the Global Prayer Network (web based) and partnering with indigenous believers in Israel to see houses of prayer augmented---and there have been a number of MJ Fellowships joining in that mission/bearing much fruit. Many in the Jewish world have been coming to faith in radical ways/seeing that Yeshua truly is real. It was within this strain of MJudaism that part of my life occurred growing up.....and I loved it.

Other Messianic Jews associated with it are people such Asher Intrater and Dan Juster. Rabbi Dan Juster had very informative sermon on the issue called "The Development of the Messianic Jewish Movement - "...which I was very glad for since it was very detailed in giving description of how the movement evolved and spawned many variations/sub-cultures of Messianic Jewish culture that we see today. ...and discussing how other Messianic Jews can seek to address many of the errors that have been allowed to develop in the camp.

Concerning discussing the errors (as well as the strengths ) in Messianic Judaism and what the Law was meant for, Asher Intrater had an excellent sermon I was able to listen to, entitled "You Are My Beloved Son"...focusing on what it means to be approved by the Lord and how many within Messianic Judaism did not have true love for the Gentiles.

For more on the background behind Asher, he and his wife, Betty Intrater, are the directors of "Revive Israel Ministries"--which is an apostolic ministry team dedicated to revival in Israel, with their work in recent years including street evangelism in Tel Aviv with Simcha Davidov, assisting at Tiferet Yeshua Congregation in Tel Aviv with Ari Sorkoram, working with the Netanel House outreach in Jerusalem with Rachel Netanel, teaching discipleship classes in Hebrew, serving in the Messianic Jewish Alliance of Israel, and preaching in congregations and conferences throughout Israel. Asher is also one of the founders of "Tikkun Ministries International.org" , which is a family of Messianic Jewish congregations with ministry outreaches in Israel under the leadership of Dan Juster and Eitan Shishkoff. Having been raised in a "conservative" Jewish home in the United States, Asher came to faith in Yeshua (Jesus) by a series of supernatural experiences while traveling in Central America in 1977-78---and has been living radical for the Lord ever since.

 

[Shimshon]

Oh dear! Do you mean I squandered all of my squeakiness in response to some even squeakier anonymous, forum-jumping, tag-teaming, reticent ne'er-do-wells?

squeak

 

[Yahudim]

squeak

Yaaaaaaaa!!!!

My Brother, my Bud, my dear dear friend!!! Whoo Hoo!

 

[Shimshon]

Be careful, if that is what you are trying to do. It was just that idea that led to Heber being attacked so much that he left the forum! I watched what was happening, from outside. It is interesting to see those who attacked him most, now taking part in just the same exercise, though! All previous objections to this sort of question appear to have evaporated!

I think you have identified the hypocrisy quite well. Heber must be your role model here, huh? You mention him and refer to his prestige almost daily. In fact, your posting style is almost identical....

 

[Shimshon]

Yaaaaaaaa!!!!

My Brother, my Bud, my dear dear friend!!! Whoo Hoo!

Peace to you too Gramps. It's been a while. Glad to see you are still kickin' and spunky enough to squeeeeeek!

 

[Yahudim]

Hey David,

PM me your new cell. I can't get in touch with you guys.

I've got to go do some work. Help everyone gang up on me so I'll have something to post about when I get back, OK?!

Missed you!

 

[Shimshon]

Hey David,

PM me your new cell. I can't get in touch with you guys.

I've got to go do some work. Help everyone gang up on me so I'll have something to post about when I get back, OK?!

Missed you!

Oh that is too easy! you have any harder tasks for me!?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I think you have identified the hypocrisy quite well. Heber must be your role model here, huh? You mention him and refer to his prestige almost daily. In fact, your posting style is almost identical....

Perhaps it's just me...but the way people suspect others of being others due to posting style is akin to playing a game of "Guess Who?". Someone can be similar in style, but still distinct--and I've never even thought Avodat was anywhere close to being Heber.

That would be wild if that was the case..... Good to see you back, by the way.

 

[Gxg (G²)]

God's instructions are for the blessing of all the world. But not every instruction is given to every person.

Never got to ask you how you feel that would play out in a MJish congregation when it comes to what that would look like for both Jews/Gentiles together....or how that would look with outreach when it comes to evangelism toward others outside of the fellowship.

 

[Shimshon]

Never got to ask you how you feel that would play out in a MJish congregation when it comes to what that would look like for both Jews/Gentiles together....or how that would look with outreach when it comes to evangelism toward others outside of the fellowship.

Evangelism has nothing to do with observing the Torah of Moshe. A Jew who comes out of worldly Judaism would have that kind of baggage. A Gentile who comes out of the world, or Christianity would have that kind of baggage. The baggage is not the focus. It's the residue. The focus is Yeshua, who he is, what he did, and what he will do. None of that has to do with Jews or Gentiles observing the Torah given Moshe.

Gentiles Hear the Good News

34 So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, 35 but in every nation anyone who fears him and does what is right is acceptable to him. 36 As for the word that he sent to Israel, preaching good news of peace through Jesus Christ (he is Lord of all),

(And here is the description of the good news that was preached)

37 you yourselves know what happened throughout all Judea, beginning from Galilee after the baptism that John proclaimed: 38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power. He went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with him. 39 And we are witnesses of all that he did both in the country of the Jews and in Jerusalem. They put him to death by hanging him on a tree, 40 but God raised him on the third day and made him to appear, 41 not to all the people but to us who had been chosen by God as witnesses, who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead. 42 And he commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. 43 To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." The Holy Spirit Falls on the Gentiles

44 While Peter was still saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell on all who heard the word. 45 And the believers from among the circumcised who had come with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit was poured out even on the Gentiles. 46 For they were hearing them speaking in tongues and extolling God. Then Peter declared, 47 "Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?" 48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.

The WORD God sent to Yisrael, preached good news and peace through Yeshua Messiah. Peter says Yisrael knew 'what happened' begining from Galilee after John: God anointed Yeshua Messiah as King of Yisrael with the Holy Spirit and power. Yeshua went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was in him. And the disciples witnessed all he did, everywhere. How Yisrael put him to death by crusifiction, and how God raised him on the third day and made him to appear to the disciples. Who he commanded to preach and testify;
that Yeshua is the one appointed by God to be judge of the living and the dead. All the prophets state that everyone who believes in Him receives forgivness of sins through his name.

THIS is what we are to be witnessing. It has nothing to do with ALL gentiles becoming Torah observant through the Spirit. Our message, our witness is (he is, he did, he will do) that Yeshua is King of Yisrael (who he is), He came testifying about himself, that he would die and be raised and be the one whom the Father is drawing all to, (what he did) so we can receive forgiveness of sins and raise us to eternal life. (what he will do)

There is your message bro. Gentiles and the Torah given through Moshe is not the message, nor are they bound together.

Yeshua and who he is, what he did and what he does and will do for us ARE the gospel message, and eternal life if we believe. Nothing else should be testified to. As it has no real substance to the life in Messiah we are called to live.

The pattern of holiness found in our Torah is lived out in reality through the Spirit. Trying to live out the pattern as if the Spirit lead you there is crazy.

 

[mishkan]

Actually the word that is most often translated as "heathen" is the word goy in Hebrew ... plural is goyim. Goyim not only has been translated as heathen but also means nations. Today many words have been emptied of their original meaning and they often mean other things. Heathen now conotates a G-dless savage instead of meaning goy, someone not Jewish.

Oh, how I wish more people realized this!

I participate in a Facebook group where everyone has been taught that "Gentile" is a dirty word, speaking to being "out of covenant" (whatever that means)!

Goy means "non-Jewish", pure and simple. By extension, we can see the additional layer of "without God". But, as you say, the first is the denotative meaning, while the second is only a connotation added by culture over time.

Israel itself is referred to as a "goy", one nation among the many. Some might consider it ironic that Hashem calls them a "goy kadosh"--a "holy nation". It is hard to see how that might be translated as "a holy heathen"!

 

[yedida]

Oh, how I wish more people realized this!

I participate in a Facebook group where everyone has been taught that "Gentile" is a dirty word, speaking to being "out of covenant" (whatever that means)!

Goy means "non-Jewish", pure and simple. By extension, we can see the additional layer of "without God". But, as you say, the first is the denotative meaning, while the second is only a connotation added by culture over time.

Israel itself is referred to as a "goy", one nation among the many. Some might consider it ironic that Hashem calls them a "goy kadosh"--a "holy nation". It is hard to see how that might be translated as "a holy heathen"!

Thank you!!

 

[visionary]

Ok, what I mean is this. Would you quote the part about God writing the law on human hearts, to Gentiles, using that New Covenant verse? SH.

What do you see written on your heart by God? That Jeremiah was talking about.

 

[Lulav]

yeh it has but the poll doesn't lie....trhata what I was trying to find out

*thats


sorry my keyboard is busted hence the awesome typos

Please note Tishri that the ones that are causing the most problems have refused to vote, even while posting their opinions here.

I think with this thread and the others that are current regarding this that it is obvious that most that come here believe that Torah is for today and it is for righteous Jews and Gentiles who believe that Yeshua is Messiah.

Those who do not believe this should not be allowed to hold the Torah scroll and post freely here, this includes both Jew and Gentiles.

Perhaps a 'Hebrew Roots' forum needs to be made and not as a sub-forum of this one?


Jewish pride and Gentile superiority should not be allowed to steer the conversations in here any longer. Until this is addressed there will not be peaceful discussions.

 

[Lulav]

Shalom G,

I don't think any of us would argue that there has been changes made in the requirements of Torah. Exodus alone is rife with them. The revolutionary teachings and ministry of Messiah are certainly great examples too. But there is much more to Torah observance than marriage or sin offerings. And despite your obvious omissions, there is much that was NOT changed in Torah and that IS required of all believers, whether born or grafted into the covenant of Israel.

The 'Kingdom of Heaven' is an often misunderstood concept. A Kingdom has a King. It has subjects. It has a defining document. It has laws. I would not want to be the 'least' in the Kingdom. As I understand the parable, those that are least are the ones that are cast into the outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Be Well,

Mine too!

 

[visionary]

Please note Tishri that the ones that are causing the most problems have refused to vote, even while posting their opinions here.

I think with this thread and the others that are current regarding this that it is obvious that most that come here believe that Torah is for today and it is for righteous Jews and Gentiles who believe that Yeshua is Messiah.

Those who do not believe this should not be allowed to hold the Torah scroll and post freely here, this includes both Jew and Gentiles.

Perhaps a 'Hebrew Roots' forum needs to be made and not as a sub-forum of this one?


Jewish pride and Gentile superiority should not be allowed to steer the conversations in here any longer. Until this is addressed there will not be peaceful discussions.

I second that..

 

[xxpigxx]

Please note Tishri that the ones that are causing the most problems have refused to vote, even while posting their opinions here.

I think with this thread and the others that are current regarding this that it is obvious that most that come here believe that Torah is for today and it is for righteous Jews and Gentiles who believe that Yeshua is Messiah.

Those who do not believe this should not be allowed to hold the Torah scroll and post freely here, this includes both Jew and Gentiles.

Perhaps a 'Hebrew Roots' forum needs to be made and not as a sub-forum of this one?

Jewish pride and Gentile superiority should not be allowed to steer the conversations in here any longer. Until this is addressed there will not be peaceful discussions.

Agree