Where is your evidence creationists?

Psudopod

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Six days to God might be something different...I do not know and I don't care.
I believe the Bible as the Word of God everything in it....everything. I believe all the miracles did happen...and guess what.......that even Jesus walked on water.
I will never give up on Christ.....never. I would die to defend His name. This you can't possibly fathom...but I would. But then you do not have the Holy Spirit..so you don't get what I am talking about.

I would encourage you to read about Christ and why He came...to save the lost.

Of course you do, and no one should ever expect you to give up on Christ, or deny miracles. That's not what I'm talking about though. Miracles like that cannot be refuted - no one can say Christ did not walk on water, or rose from the dead in three days. People can easily say they don't believe it, but they cannot prove them wrong. Christians take it on faith that they happened, non Christians see no reason to believe that they did. Both can agree to disagree.

When it comes to things that we can test, like the minimum age of the earth, the existance of a global flood, that sort of thing, then if you say "this has to have happened just as it appeared in the bible, or Christianity is wrong" then you are setting yourself up to fail. If you put faith in something that can be tested by sight, then you are asking for your faith to be proven false. Obviously you know in your heart God is real, you wouldn't be a Christian if you didn't. If you know God is real, but say "but this demonstrated fact means God isn't real" you either have to ignore reality, or give up on God. I've seen this happen in both cases with creationists - they ignore God's handiwork or they lose their faith. Both are terribly sad in my opinion.
 
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Psudopod

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Blah blah blah.........what is the first cause that got evolution going? I want to know and since this group knows all the information in the universe.......you certainly will have the answer.

The first cause of evolution is chemistry - self replicating chemicals that replicate imperfectly.

What was it....and of course prove it...by the scientific method.

You can't prove anything by the scientific method, only disprove it.

Its the arrogance that is hilarious. None can prove anything...they certainly can't disprove God or address that first cause...yet they think they just have it all. Wouldn't you think they would have exciting, busy lives that would not include making pot shots at God believers on some Christian internet forum? LOL

Re-read the posts round here. No one is trying to disprove God, that's apologetics not science. Anyone who says you can disprove God with science is wrong. And no one is taking pot shots at God believers for being God believers, they are correcting the misunderstandings some Christians have about science in general and evolution in particular. Lots of the posts correcting creationists are made by other Christians.

The only one who you can take to task is Consol and his various puppets, but if you read around you'll see he either gets ignored or put down just as much as the creationists.
 
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C

cupid dave

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If it doesn't line up with The Holy Bible, it fails.
Science and evolution and athiesm and haters cannot prove the Bible wrong, no matter how hard they try. Trying to take credit for what The Holy Bible has already said is lame and a failure and will be judged by God alone. Woah unto those that seek to steal from God.


Actually, Science confirms Gnesis in general, while the haters attack the church people wh misunderstand what genesis actually says.

They both match up pretty well...

1) THERE WAS A BIG BANG BEGINNING IN BOTH...

2) THERE WERE SEVEN DURATIONS THEREAFTER IN BOTH....

3) THERE WAS A cOSMIC DARK AGE OF 400 MILLION YEARS BEFORE GOD SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT...

4) The Plant Kingdom DID appear before 5he Animal Kingdom...

5) THERE WAS ONE SINGLE OCEAN IN BOTH...
Gen. 1:9 And God, said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, (i.e.; Panthalassa),

6) THERE WAS A "PANGEA" IN BOTH...
Gen. 1:9 ...and let (Pangea), the dry land appear: (composed of the Seven Large Tectonic Plates:
(North American Plate, Pacific Plate, South American Plate, African Plate, Eurasian Plate, Antartic Plate, Australian Plate),
... and it was so.</FONT>

7) THERE WAS AN ASCENT-OF-22-types OF MANKIND IN BOTH...

8) The Three (3) Racial Stock Theory supports the three sons of Noah as Caucasian, Negroid, and Asian.

9) The decimation and disappearance of Neanderthal and Homo Erectus supports the "Flood Story" eradication of all other mankind approximately 40,000
years ago.

10) Genetic Y-chromosome testing identifies all modern men with just one "Noah Type" man who lived exactly 40,000 years ago.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Actually, Science confirms Gnesis in general, while the haters attack the church people wh misunderstand what genesis actually says.

They both match up pretty well...

1) THERE WAS A BIG BANG BEGINNING IN BOTH...
The Big Bang theory does not describe the beginning of the universe. For all we know, the universe could be eternal.

2) THERE WERE SEVEN DURATIONS THEREAFTER IN BOTH....
Seven arbitrary divisions of cosmological time. We could just as easily have 15.

3) THERE WAS A cOSMIC DARK AGE OF 400 MILLION YEARS BEFORE GOD SAID LET THERE BE LIGHT...
Show me the figure of 400 million years in the Bible and I'll eat my hat.

4) The Plant Kingdom DID appear before 5he Animal Kingdom...
But not before the formation of the Sun (Day Five).

5) THERE WAS ONE SINGLE OCEAN IN BOTH...
Gen. 1:9 And God, said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, (i.e.; Panthalassa),
Genesis says the world was fully aquatic, but science says the early Earth was void of water, and then the oceans formed.

6) THERE WAS A "PANGEA" IN BOTH...
Gen. 1:9 ...and let (Pangea), the dry land appear: (composed of the Seven Large Tectonic Plates:
(North American Plate, Pacific Plate, South American Plate, African Plate, Eurasian Plate, Antartic Plate, Australian Plate),
... and it was so.</FONT>
Show me the phrase 'Tectonic Plate' in the Bible and I'll eat my hat.

7) THERE WAS AN ASCENT-OF-22-types OF MANKIND IN BOTH...
No, there was not.

8) The Three (3) Racial Stock Theory supports the three sons of Noah as Caucasian, Negroid, and Asian.
The 'Racial Stock' theory is a) not a real theory, and b) long discredited.

9) The decimation and disappearance of Neanderthal and Homo Erectus supports the "Flood Story" eradication of all other mankind approximately 40,000 years ago.
It supports nothing of the sort - the evidence shows that Neanderthal died out from over-competition and over-breeding with H. sapiens.

10) Genetic Y-chromosome testing identifies all modern men with just one "Noah Type" man who lived exactly 40,000 years ago.
Wrong again. Y-Chromosomal Adam a) lived 60-142 thousand years ago, and b) was just one of about 1000 human men living at the time, the vast majority of which have descendants living today. Just because your mother's father didn't pass on his Y-chromosome doesn't mean he didn't pass on all his other genes. There is no bottleneck that Genesis purports existed.
 
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J

Jazer

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I believe the Bible as the Word of God everything in it....everything. I believe all the miracles did happen...and guess what.......that even Jesus walked on water.
The disciples had a difficult time to understand. Esp after the resurrection. At first they thought Jesus was a Spirit. But He showed them that He had flesh and bones and He even ate fish.

"And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, 'Do you have anything here to eat?' They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence." (24:41-43) Luke​
 
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J

Jazer

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The Big Bang theory does not describe the beginning of the universe. For all we know, the universe could be eternal.
Then the universe would be in a state of either expansion or contraction. I have trouble to belive you can fit the whole universe into the space of a mustard seed. Although an Oak seed is small compared to a mature oak tree. Or Redwood tree.
 
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ianb321red

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Why in the world would I have to need to provide evidence that something did not happen? The burden of proof is with the person that claims that something did happen.

Even in the legal system, "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges". Ever heard of innocent until proven guilty? Or in other words, nothing happened until someone proved it did.

Ok, let me make this even more clearer for you and go back to basics.

What?
The historical claim that Jesus Christ lived in the 1st century AD in Galilee/ Judea, the claim that he was conceived by a virgin, the claim that he began his ministry aged 30 and performed miracles which were witnessed my hundreds of people. The claim that he claimed and proved to be God and that he was fully human and fully divine, the claim that he was put to death for blasphemy and crucified for making these claims of divinity, the claim that he was resurrected from the tomb after 3 days and subsequently appeared to over 500 people, the claim that he ascended to heaven after promising to his disciples that he will return to end history and to judge every single person who has ever lived.

Primary evidence
The primary evidence for all of these claims comes from The Bible. The above claims are not just the view or opinion of “Christians”. The claims are recorded in an historical text which the majority of mainstream Christians** accept to be written by man and the inspired and infallible word of God. (** this excludes the so-called Christian sects and cults such as JW’s and so on..)

Authority of primary evidence
The most extensive manuscript, scroll and codex library exists to support The Bible. More than 23,000 extant manuscripts exist, with over 5,300 for the New Testament alone. When you test and attest any of the pertinent manuscript evidence that exists for The Bible against the rule for establishing historical accuracy of ancient texts, then The Biblical account clearly stands up as being an accurate account of history, and more importantly an accurate account of Jesus Christ.

It’s often argued on this forum that there are other religious texts other than The Bible which argue for their own authority. Let’s compare The Qu’ranic account of Jesus (Isa) versus The Christian account:

The Islamic account of Jesus:

The Quran - written circa 600 years after the known time when Jesus lived.
The Quran - written in Southern Persia (Saudi Arabia) some 1000 kilometres from Judaea/ Galilee
The Quran - written by one author (Muhammad) alone who never knew, met or saw Jesus, and never had any contact with anyone who likewise knew, met or saw Jesus
The Quran - the alleged account (of Jesus) dictated to by an angel to Muhammad, but this account was then memorised and passed on orally, and wasn’t written down in any form until almost 80 years later
The Quran - the alleged account denies the crucifixion, denies the deity of Jesus, denies The Trinity, contains inaccuracies surrounding the virgin birth (i.e. born under a palm tree), and the early childhood life of Jesus (i.e. performing miracles as a baby)
The Quran – minimal manuscript archive - earliest primary sources 150-300 years after the events they describe

compared to:

The Bible - 3 full eyewitness accounts written by people who lived at the same time as when Jesus was alive. A wealth of additional eyewitness accounts reliability recorded also..
The Bible - written by people who knew Jesus and/ or were close to Jesus
The Bible - written by people who lived in Judaea/ Galilee where Jesus lived whilst Jesus was alive
The Bible - accounts written down and first manuscripts complied 20-35 years after the events being described (First Epistle to the Thessalonians written in circa AD52)
The Bible - affirms the deity, the crucifixion, The fatherhood, The Trinity
The Bible – extensive manuscript archive – approx.. 5,300 New Testament sources with the majority written before the time of Muhammad.

Now based on the huge differences of:
-authorship
-closeness to the events described
-localisation
-manuscript archive

Which account do you think is correct? If you believe the Islamic account is correct, then that is the equivalent of believing that me completely rewriting Russian history from the 15th century, completely changing the facts about people who lived then and then saying that my version is more accurate than a group of historians who lived in Russia at that time and knew those people.

Secondary evidence
There are well over 50 separate pagan, Jewish and secular sources such as the accounts of historians Falvius Josephus, Tacitus, The Talmud, Fronto, Suetonius and so on with independently corroborate the historical accuracy of The Bible.
The Dead Sea scrolls are sectarian manuscripts from Judaism, and provide unquestioned reliability for the Old Testament – especially the scrolls relating to the book of Isaiah. Closely related are the Qumran scrolls which were discovered to contain fragments of almost every book in the Old Testament. All-in-all there were about 200 scrolls discovered, and completely support the belief that The Old Testament was well preserved and accurately handed down to us.
None of these secondary sources of evidence have been successfully undermined in terms of their authenticity, however some sources are considered more reliable than others simply due to the variation the manuscript records.

Other non-Christian evidence
There have been a number scientific investigations to prove the events of The Old Testament:
-In 1990 the Merneptah Stele was found to contain hieroglyphic clues to demonstrate that the ancient Israelites were a separate people more than 3,000 years ago
-In 1993 archeologists found proof of King David's existence outside the Bible.
-It was also discovered that the names of 29 Kings from ten nations (Egypt, Assyria, Babylon and more) are mentioned not only in the Bible but are also found on monuments of their own time.

Other Christian evidence
The 2 examples that spring to mind are the fulfilled prophecies (i.e. Jesus (as supported above), The Prophecy of Tyre), as well as the widespread usage and acceptance of the established cannon throughout the early church demonstrated through the letters from the early church bishops in the early church

Conclusion
So the evidence is (a) The Bible, (b) non-Christian texts (c) archeological and scientific evidence, and (d) the fulfilled prophecies and widespread acceptance of the authority of The Biblical cannon.

There is no doubt that The Bible in itself is a reliable historical text. There is more evidence to support this body of work than for any other ancient text.
The accounts and claims of The Bible can be further validated by non-Christian and non-religious texts which themselves are generally accepted to be reliable accounts.
Irrespective of this, The Bible can be tested in its own right against tests of historicity which can demonstrate its accuracy.
And finally it can be compare against other religious texts using the same tests of historicity which prove that The Biblical account it accurate.

The Bible is my primary evidence. Everything else is a bonus quite frankly.

Over to you
So I’ve laid out the evidence for you. This is done objectively – you can check out anything that I’ve made claim to.
This does not hinge on personal belief or religion – this is object evidence which exists out there for you to check out for yourself.

So here’s my proof.
You need to refute my claims and evidence using counter evidence to support your counter arguments/ claims.
Failure to provide any counter argument along the lines of what I have provided, would imply that you do not have a sufficient evidence based counter argument.
Until you or anyone else can provide this counter argument, then I hold that my position stands as being the true accurate and historical account.
Therefore God exists, and Christianity is the correct world view.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Then the universe would be in a state of either expansion or contraction.
As may well be the case. The 'Big Wobble', as some call it, is an eternal sequences of expansions and contractions, a chain of singularities.

I have trouble to belive you can fit the whole universe into the space of a mustard seed.
Undoubtedly, as the human mind never evolved to conceive such things. Regardless, that is what the evidence tells us happened: the whole universe has been expanding from a singularity. We can't fit those sorts of figures in our head, but luckily we can write them down and manipulate them objectively.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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I will not allow evolutionists to attempt to brainwash me into thinking that evolution is science. What it is... is science fiction.

Yea the good ole Nebraska man....Piltdown and Orce Man....then there was the Haeckles embryo fraud, did I mention Java Man and Neanderthal Man and little Lucy? Archaeoraptor the missing link fraud.

Evolution frauds « Evolution is not science

O. C. Marsh, “Recent Polydactyle Horses”, American Journal of Science 43, 1892, pp. 339-354 – as quoted in Creation Research Society Quarterly correspondence, Vol. 30, December 1993, p. 125.

Niles Eldredge, as quoted in: Luther D. Sunderland, Darwin’s Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, fourth edition (revised and expanded), Master Book Publishers, Santee (California),1988, p. 78.
 
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mdancin4theLord

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As may well be the case. The 'Big Wobble', as some call it, is an eternal sequences of expansions and contractions, a chain of singularities.


Undoubtedly, as the human mind never evolved to conceive such things. Regardless, that is what the evidence tells us happened: the whole universe has been expanding from a singularity. We can't fit those sorts of figures in our head, but luckily we can write them down and manipulate them objectively.


But what causes the expansions and contractions and why? There had to be energy...so what created that energy?

When we like I said examine the eye...and its complexed structure...why has not our minds evolved enough to understand?

Manipulate is a good word......evidence being manipulated, changed by some scientists.

What I know is this......it all did not happen by chance.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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But what causes the expansions and contractions and why? There had to be energy...so what created that energy?
As I've said before, we don't know. Perhaps it was quantum fluctuations in a grand nihilo, perhaps the energy of the universe is offset by an exact and opposite counter. Who knows. We don't know - and neither do you. We are honest to throw up our hands and say "We don't know", but it's rather telling that Creationists are not.

When we like I said examine the eye...and its complexed structure...why has not our minds evolved enough to understand?
On the contrary, our minds can comprehend the evolution of the eye. As I stated in my last post to you (to which I'm still awaiting a reply), the eye can be quite succinctly explained in terms of evolution: gradual changes from our ancestors primitive clump of photosensitive cells to the variety of modern-day eyes (be it the eyes of a squid, hawk, or human), with each change being a slight improvement on what came before it.

If you genuinely want to know how these things evolved, I'm more than happy to go through it with you. If you just want to go, "Oh, I can't imagine how they could have evolved, therefore no one can, therefore they didn't evolve", well, you're committing the fallacy of personal incredulity, and you have a rather substantial barrier to overcome, my friend.

Manipulate is a good word......evidence being manipulated, changed by some scientists.
I thought, when I wrote that word, that some people might latch on to the non-scientific meaning of the term - to change for sinister ends - but I trusted that people would realise that, given the context, I was using the scientific meaning of the term - manipulation, to move about. I see that trust was misplaced.

Evidence is manipulated, certainly, but you're showing your lack of understanding if you think that means "fixed or altered to suit presupposed conclusions". Rather, 'manipulation', as well understood by actual scientists, means to take the raw data and extract even more information. To use an example from fiction Sherlock Holmes manipulates the clues he finds and deduces new information. He does not create fabrications or alter the clues in any way, he simply turns them around and views them from a different angle - the true, neutral meaning of the word 'manipulate'. When you use a knife and fork to eat your food, you are manipulating those utensils. When a surgeon uses high-tech instruments to remove a tumour, he is manipulating those instruments. When a mathematician moves the terms of an equation around to solve for some variable, he is manipulating those terms.

And, so, when a scientists takes raw evidence, performs experiments, and draws conclusions, he is manipulating the evidence. Do not draw anything sinister from that, unless you have good evidence to accuse all scientists of underhanded deceit.

What I know is this......it all did not happen by chance.
And how, pray tell, do you know this?
 
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AV1611VET

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As I've said before, we don't know.
You don't know; yet it happened, because here we are, right?

Then don't call what you believe 'science' and what we believe 'religion'.
 
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CabVet

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You don't know; yet it happened, because here we are, right?

Then don't call what you believe 'science' and what we believe 'religion'.

"We don't know" is very different from "God did it". The later requires belief, the former does not. ;)
 
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CabVet

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AV, here is a prime example of what I mean by false and misleading information. You want to say that God did it? Fine. But why misquote and misinterpret science when nothing that science supports would change your mind?

I will not allow evolutionists to attempt to brainwash me into thinking that evolution is science. What it is... is science fiction.

Yea the good ole Nebraska man....Piltdown and Orce Man....then there was the Haeckles embryo fraud, did I mention Java Man and Neanderthal Man and little Lucy? Archaeoraptor the missing link fraud.

Evolution frauds « Evolution is not science

O. C. Marsh, &#8220;Recent Polydactyle Horses&#8221;, American Journal of Science 43, 1892, pp. 339-354 &#8211; as quoted in Creation Research Society Quarterly correspondence, Vol. 30, December 1993, p. 125.

Niles Eldredge, as quoted in: Luther D. Sunderland, Darwin&#8217;s Enigma: Fossils and Other Problems, fourth edition (revised and expanded), Master Book Publishers, Santee (California),1988, p. 78.
 
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AV1611VET

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"We don't know" is very different from "God did it". The later requires belief, the former does not. ;)
Then I submit it takes more faith to believe your way, than it does mine.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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You don't know; yet it happened, because here we are, right?
Depends. What is this 'it'? The Big Wobble?

Then don't call what you believe 'science' and what we believe 'religion'.
I think you're mistaken as to what it is I believe, what I call 'science', and what I call 'religion'. Don't take your beef with someone else out on me.
 
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Split Rock

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I will not allow evolutionists to attempt to brainwash me into thinking that evolution is science. What it is... is science fiction.
Oh goody.... yet another newbie creationist coming here and telling us what is and is not science. Scientists determine what is science.. not lying professional creationists like those who made the website you linked.

Yea the good ole Nebraska man....Piltdown and Orce Man....then there was the Haeckles embryo fraud, did I mention Java Man and Neanderthal Man and little Lucy? Archaeoraptor the missing link fraud.
The only frauds of any kind on your list are Piltdown, Haeckles embryos and Archaeoraptor. And that's all you guys can come up with for over a hundred years of evolutionary science. But let's look at these legitimate frauds and see if they are motivated by a desire to promote evolution.

Piltdown Man: The perennial favorite of professional creationists, and the only one that is a true evolutionary fraud. Too bad you guys have to go back to 1912 to find it to promote the idea of "numerous" evolution frauds. The motivations behind the fraud are unknown, but let's give you this one. One 1912 evolutionary fraud, so far.

Haeckles embryos: Haeckle exaggerated the similarities that truly exist between different embryos.. but why did he do it? It was to promote his own "theory of recapitulation," which happens to be wrong. He did not do it to promote evolution.

Archaeoraptor: This was an attempt by a farmer to make more money by taking two legetimate fossils and sticking them together, presumably to make more money off a feathered dinosaur. The fraud was spotted realtively easily by experts who called it a mosaic, but National Geographic (a non-scienfiic publication) ran with it anyway because they wanted a "scoop." They payed the price in the embarrassment and loss of prestige the fraud took on the magazine once the truth became generally known. They did learn a valuable lesson, however, and from then on only reported on fossils that had passed peer review, which Archaeoraptor failed.

The rest are not frauds at all. Some are legitimate (Lucy, Java Man), some were mistakes that had no effect on evolutionary science (Nebraska Man). None of any of the true frauds or mistakes on your list are used today as evidence for evolution.
 
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