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Meaning of Due Benevolence

dallasapple

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If your boss tells you do to something, I doubt you'll refuse him. You are expected to submit and you know that's your role (we've already dealt with the whole sin thing already, noneed to rehash it) so you do it. But yet women constantly argue the idea that they should submit to the husbands they actually chose to marry!

It depends on what my boss asked me to submit to..but no ..in a BOSS employee relationship you are HIRED to take ORDERS from the person who hired you ..you are HIRED for a job..and they PAY YOU to do it the way they want it done..then you LEAVE and go HOME to yrou house..and if you have a family yoru family and take yoru PAY CHECK yoru boss gave you for the JOB you did and spend the money on PERSONAL things..

I CHOSE to get married my husband did not HIRE me to get a 'job done" that he needed done ..his proposal to me wasnt an INTERVIEW where I submitted to him my WISH to "work for him' and my qualifications to which he then agreed to after careful review and then hired me oops I mean married me..

IF I wanted a boss? I would START my own business..OOPS I already did that ...with my husbands skills I "pimped him out" as he calls it..we run a buisness together..hes NOT my boss..hes the boss of himslef and Im the boss of me..if anythign the customers who call me is whom I'm "submissive" to because I want their BUSINESS..their money feeds my children..

Dallas
 
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chaz345

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So, I feel I have done my Titus 2 part to inform the younger women as to how to best phileo love (Titus 2) their husband and children. She needs to exercise her authority as her husband's MEET help so that he may grow in every way to resemble Christ. She needs to be a daughter of Sarah who grew in maturity as her life unfolded. God changed her name from Sarai (contentious) to Sarah (ruler) and she spoke with AUTHORITY to her husband to get the slave woman out of the house. And GOD HIMSELF backed her up!

"God said to Abraham, 'Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you" Gen 21:12



Why though do you characterize the man doing exactly what you say women should do as dictatorial and inappropriate?
 
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LinkH

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Psalm63,

I wrote a whopper of a response to your post, but posted it as a new thread, since it is a big topic.

One point I made is that Paul tells men that husband and wife are one flesh, and a man never hates his flesh, but nourishes it.

So why can't men take the same approach to love that you take on submission?

If a man comes in for marriage counseling. His wife says, "He beats me. He calls me 'stupid', and he gives me $.50 a week for my own personal food while I take care of the kids."

So the marriage counselor says, "Don't worry about it ma'am. Your husband is a church going Christian. So he loves you like he loves his own flesh. He takes good care of you."

Another couple comes in. The husband says, "My wife is unsubmissive. She always insists on controlling every aspect of the house. If I don't give in, she throws dishes at me and refuses to sleep with me. When she does sleep with me, it is only when she wants to, and it is all about her pleasure and not mine. She makes me do all the housework when I come home from work, while she sits around watching soap operas all day. She is always calling me 'stupid' and other names that I cannot repeat. If I don't do the housework, she threatens to leave me. The Bible says my wife is supposed to be submissive to me, and respect me. But she isn't doing any of that.

The counselor says, "I just read on the CF marriage forums that Ephesians 5 is really saying that wives are already automatically submissive to their husbands. So you have nothing to worry about. Your wife doesn't treat you like that. She submits to you. And she won't divorce you because it would be unsubmissive to leave a loving husband like you. After all, you love her like you love your own flesh according to Ephesians 5."

Doesn't it make more sense to read Ephesians 5 as exhortations for wives to submit to their husbands and for husbands to love their wives, than to assume this is the case in every marriage, or even every Christian marriage. The latter view is contrary to reality.
 
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Psalm63

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Psalm63,

I wrote a whopper of a response to your post, but posted it as a new thread, since it is a big topic.

One point I made is that Paul tells men that husband and wife are one flesh, and a man never hates his flesh, but nourishes it.

So why can't men take the same approach to love that you take on submission?

If a man comes in for marriage counseling. His wife says, "He beats me. He calls me 'stupid', and he gives me $.50 a week for my own personal food while I take care of the kids."

So the marriage counselor says, "Don't worry about it ma'am. Your husband is a church going Christian. So he loves you like he loves his own flesh. He takes good care of you."

Another couple comes in. The husband says, "My wife is unsubmissive. She always insists on controlling every aspect of the house. If I don't give in, she throws dishes at me and refuses to sleep with me. When she does sleep with me, it is only when she wants to, and it is all about her pleasure and not mine. She makes me do all the housework when I come home from work, while she sits around watching soap operas all day. She is always calling me 'stupid' and other names that I cannot repeat. If I don't do the housework, she threatens to leave me. The Bible says my wife is supposed to be submissive to me, and respect me. But she isn't doing any of that.

The counselor says, "I just read on the CF marriage forums that Ephesians 5 is really saying that wives are already automatically submissive to their husbands. So you have nothing to worry about. Your wife doesn't treat you like that. She submits to you. And she won't divorce you because it would be unsubmissive to leave a loving husband like you. After all, you love her like you love your own flesh according to Ephesians 5."

Doesn't it make more sense to read Ephesians 5 as exhortations for wives to submit to their husbands and for husbands to love their wives, than to assume this is the case in every marriage, or even every Christian marriage. The latter view is contrary to reality.

because he would be guilty of subtracting from the word of God. Paul uses IMPERATIVES for the agape commands. All of the hupotasso verbs in Eph 5, 1 Peter 3, and Titus 2 are PASSIVE voice verbs. They are NOT imperatives and we err, add to the word of GOD, and bind up burdens too heavy to bear upon the daughters of the most High God when we insert COMMANDS where there are none!
 
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Psalm63

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The counselor says, "I just read on the CF marriage forums that Ephesians 5 is really saying that wives are already automatically submissive to their husbands. So you have nothing to worry about. Your wife doesn't treat you like that. She submits to you. And she won't divorce you because it would be unsubmissive to leave a loving husband like you. After all, you love her like you love your own flesh according to Ephesians 5."

Doesn't it make more sense to read Ephesians 5 as exhortations for wives to submit to their husbands and for husbands to love their wives, than to assume this is the case in every marriage, or even every Christian marriage. The latter view is contrary to reality.

That is not what I am saying. I am saying she is automatically SUBJECT TO her husband like you are SUBJECT TO gravity. We would not say you are "submissive to" gravity. A statement like that makes no sense because "being submissive" implies volition.

Eph 5, 1 Pet 2, and Titus 2 are all descriptions not prescriptions. They are not telling wives to "be submissive". They are saying, you ARE SUBJECT TO your husbands so here are some ideas for how to make the best of that reality.

I especially love that Peter uses Sarah as a role model for dealing with a disobedient husband. She is a great role model. :pink:

LinkH, you ARE SUBJECT to gravity. How are you going to make the best of that reality?

images

 
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MessianicMommy

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Psalms, I am very uncertain where you got that "Sarai" means ""Contentious""" when it means "My Princess". Sarah means "Princess". Ask a good Hebrew scholar and you get variations of "My ruler/My Princess" vs "Ruler/Princess" on the issue.

Link This is an answer to you..

To quote a teacher I greatly admire:

Jesus taught that whoever might seek to lead must instead become the greater servant. So if I were looking for the leader in a relationship, I would find them to be the greatest servant in the relationship. It is the servant I am willing to follow.

there are THOUSANDS of verses that speak to the concept of submission in the OT and NT combined. It is a major theme of Scripture. I actually find the worst thing about modern Western submission teachings to be that they . . . insult the teachings about submission that are in Scripture.

EVERYONE who says they love God is EXPECTED to function as part of the Kingdom people who have been shown by Yeshua's example that servanthood, becoming a slave of everyone, is the way to reveal the depth of your love and maturity of your relationship with God. The MORE you love and serve God, the LOWER you will make yourself.

Scripture tells all believers to serve one another, and when you think you're doing good at that, serve your enemy. Lest you think this is just about out and other, in a couple of key spots (in addition to all of the many verses about submission in general) we are told that as women we are to bring not just certain duties we have, or certain aspects of our lives, to our dh's and submit to them in these areas, but we are to bring EVERYTHING we are and EVERYTHING we do and we are now to do it to our dh's as we do it to the Lord! And our dh's are to bring everything that is theirs, everything they are an everything they do, and sacrifice it all for us.

Servant and slave are similar ideas--but the servant is only servant for a pre-determined time; the slave has submitted themselves in servitude for the remainder of their lives.

Submission is about being in agreement with someone else and putting all of your resources towards benefitting them, sharing a goal, serving them. Sacrifice is where you give everything towards serving them--including laying down your life for them. It's a deeper level of submission.

The current doctrines about submission have everyone arguing over who is supposed to "get served" and that is backwards and wrong. We are supposed to fight over who gets TO serve! If everyone who claimed to be part of God's Kingdom would start sacrificing their life for everyone else and functioning as the slave to others . . . what a powerful force to be reckoned with we would all be!

I don't believe in mutual submission because I want to make sure that women get served as often as men do. I believe in mutual submission because I believe we are ALL called to lay down our lives and serve each other.

"Head of the wife" gets translated into "head of the household" but "head of the household" isn't what is there :)

Kephale, head, as in head of the river--or source

Paul was saying that the man who had been studying Scripture all along was now to be the source of understanding Scripture for his wife who was finally being brought into this part of his world :amen:

Let me try to come at this from a slightly sideways perspective ;)

In Jewish culture in ancient Biblical times women were considered the property of their husbands. They were owned by them--that is why the husband paid a bride price for his wife. Submit does mean to serve and cater to and meet the needs of. BUT this is far too simplistic and takes so many other assumed and understood things into consideration--as well as what the teaching to men that wasn't culturally motivated means to women and the change in perceiving a woman's responsibility to submit.

A bride price was paid for a woman in ancient times--but in Jewish culture she had the right to accept or refuse the offer of marriage and if she accepted it then there were covenant agreements laid out in a Ketubah that was signed by both the bridegroom and the bride. It contained the rights of the woman to be fed, clothed, cared for, housed, and often her commitment to follow her dh anywhere he went with one opportunity to return to Jerusalem whenever she insisted. So submit wasn't servitude ;) She wasn't a slave, she was treated with utmost respect and provided for according to her dh's means. Housework wasn't just mundane--it was holy

Keeping a kosher kitchen and a kosher home, preparing for the Sabbath, raising the children--these were honorable and highly valued things. Proverbs 31 is a tribute to a woman who threw her whole heart and soul into serving God and her family in her career as wife and mother.

The *problem* was that at the Fall it was made known that in sin and the aftermath of sin women would desire their husbands and they would rule over them. So a hierarchical relationship was established and the complications this brought. Then, fast forward to the cross, and we have a restoration of both male and female being created in the image of God when we learn that there is neither male nor female at the foot of the cross.

We also see a pattern in Paul's writings and instructions that we are not to use our Christian liberties to produce cultural revolution--but are to use them to empower the Church to fulfill the Great Commission and take the Gospel to the world. As he explained, it is for this reason that he becomes all things to all people. In the current cultural climate in Paul's day the wife was legally required to submit. Paul uses tradition, Scripture, and the admonition to all believers to submit to one another to encourage women to uphold this legal responsibility. He then goes on to admonish men to set aside their legal rights and serve their wives--to love them to the point of sacrifice. It isn't through women casting off the shackles of cultural expectations that change would come because, in fact, without the hierarchical negative involved the idea of submitting as a wife is a good and God thing! It fits with the submitting one to another idea. Rather, it was through men taking up the command to submit to one another--submitting to their wives in a way that sacrifices their law-given responsibilities and replaces them with God-given ones, that Gospel revolution would come. It is as we serve one another that the relationship in the Garden is modelled to mankind who wants that kind of love and peace and relationship.


dh and I try to exist like Adam and Eve did in the Garden. We share each other's burdens. We make choices in unity with God and one another. We try to treat each other with respect. We've grown up so many years beyond this letter where women and men are able to be taught from birth--and since dh became a believer late in life and I was born into a Christian home and have been to seminary, in our case I'm usually teaching him about Scripture. What he knows about he teaches me.

And we never really talked about Women-only-submission or Mutual Submission --just about how to love and respect EACH OTHER.

What's funny is that dh tells me, whenever this issue comes up, that I'm more submissive than any of the wives of men who claim they believe in WOS :sorry: He sees that I'm out to fight for what blesses and benefits him. I'm not about my own agenda.

I also talked with him while we were engaged about being on the same team--using a war analogy for my ex-soldier ;) I explained that when he got offended or hurt or sensitive to anything I said or did he was acting like I'm the enemy--but I'm not. I'm on HIS team

well you have to keep in mind that the Proverbs 31 woman totally ran her home. NT says we are to be Managers of our Homes. It is the woman who runs the home--but we are also told to bring that into submission to our dh's. Echad in the home; Echad in worship :amen:

I do feel adored, loved and protected by my dh- He would die for me, for our family. And he adores me--and I him.
The author of the above is Pastor Crystal Lutton. One of her websites is here: AOLFF — Arms of Love Family Fellowship


She is IIRC in the middle of writing a book on the subject of "Women only submission" and "Mutual submission". She will examine the points as they are brought up in various theological books and Christian Living books, and examine them in light of Scripture.
 
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LinkH

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because he would be guilty of subtracting from the word of God. Paul uses IMPERATIVES for the agape commands. All of the hupotasso verbs in Eph 5, 1 Peter 3, and Titus 2 are PASSIVE voice verbs. They are NOT imperatives and we err, add to the word of GOD, and bind up burdens too heavy to bear upon the daughters of the most High God when we insert COMMANDS where there are none!

The part about the man loving his own flesh doesn't have the sense of a command. It says no man ever hated his own flesh. And a husband and wife are one flesh. So, viola, I could invent a doctrine that men automatically love their wives. Sure, there are commands to do it, but I could argue it is automatic. (Not that this is consistent with the text, but it could be argued.)

This is analogous to the argument you are making. Scripture does tell women to submit to their husbands. Even if you were right that this one verse out of several was saying wives are subject to their husbands has the sense of being a command.

Several things that are translated as commands are in the passage. Romans 12 tells believers not to be conformed to this world but to be transformed by the renewing of our minds. These verbs are in the passive.
 
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LinkH

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Eph 5, 1 Pet 2, and Titus 2 are all descriptions not prescriptions. They are not telling wives to "be submissive". They are saying, you ARE SUBJECT TO your husbands so here are some ideas for how to make the best of that reality.


Are all those translators of different translations in cahoots with each other then? Would you say that they are wrong?

What is it you object to about their translation. Do you argue that a passive cannot have the sense of a command?

LinkH, you ARE SUBJECT to gravity. How are you going to make the best of that reality?

I don't "arrange in order under" gravity. Gravity is a physical principle. It is not something that has authority that can be obeyed or disobeyed. Soldiers in the Roman army submitted in the 'hupotasso' to their commanding officers. The Bible tells believers to submit to governments, and warns against resisting these powers. There is a choice. The Bible exhorts slaves to submit to their masters. There is a choice. Onesimus proved that. Wives can choose whether to submit to their husbands as well.

I especially love that Peter uses Sarah as a role model for dealing with a disobedient husband. She is a great role model. :pink:

Where do you get this idea? Where does Peter say anything about Abraham being disobedient. I can't find a clear example in Abraham's life of disobedience that had something to do with Sarah. Sure, he took Lot with him. When it came to taking a concubine, was Abraham disobedient? He may not have had access to the creation account. We do not know. There is no evidence of a command not to be polygamous. He did that at Sarah's behest.

He did not have the command not to lie as far as we know. Having Sarai lie may have shown a lack of faith in God's promises about him, but there is no evidence that he received a command about this.
 
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Psalm63

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My 14 yod asked me what I was doing on the forum last night. I told her that I was explaining my discoveries about how a wife IS SUBJECT to her husband and that is why Paul hammers so hard on the need for a husband to AGAPE his wife. Women's emotions ARE tied up with their husbands, it is how God made us and it has it's purpose. I believe husbands who learn to be sensitive to and considerate of their wives grow in Christlikeness.

My 14 yod said she sees this tendency of women to BE SUBJECT to men in a relationship already in High School. The girl gets very emotionally involved with the boy (and there is LOTS of high school drama over this) and the boy "just wants sex".
 
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JaneFW

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Why do women take sex so seriously? Just do it, enjoy it, and be free with it instead of using it as a currency. It's hard enough for men to link it to emotions as it is without all the baggage that women put on it.
'rant over...'
LOL. It's men I see taking sex seriously, including your own threads. Why don't YOU just enjoy it and be free about it instead of insisting on it being done your way in your time how you like it. Betcha your wife would love it if you just relaxed a bit.
 
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dallasapple

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My 14 yod asked me what I was doing on the forum last night. I told her that I was explaining my discoveries about how a wife IS SUBJECT to her husband and that is why Paul hammers so hard on the need for a husband to AGAPE his wife. Women's emotions ARE tied up with their husbands, it is how God made us and it has it's purpose. I believe husbands who learn to be sensitive to and considerate of their wives grow in Christlikeness.

My 14 yod said she sees this tendency of women to BE SUBJECT to men in a relationship already in High School. The girl gets very emotionally involved with the boy (and there is LOTS of high school drama over this) and the boy "just wants sex".

Well thats one thing I did right with mine..right now my 15 yo is "dating" a girl..hes not a uenich..but he doesnt "just want sex"..hes very emotionally sensitive and in tune to HIS and HER feelings..hes a very kind and compassionate and understanding(or he tries) person ..and thats one of the reasons WHY he said he doesnt get along well with a lot of the boys his age..he said thats all they talk about..he doesnt like them .My 22 yo is also not a hound for sex..He wants a RELATIONSIP..unfortunately right now hes not ready for one IMHO..Hes a wee bit on the 'not sure what I want to do in life" side at the moment ..and that doesnt "impress" a lot of females I dont think..not at his age..anyway there is no rush..But boys ..MY boys anyway dont 'just want sex"..and they werent just born that way..I TALKED to them about sex and relationships at length..when the opportununity arose over the years..which if you are yourself in tune with your children is frequently..and this time it paid off...

Dallas
 
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mkgal1

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But she's not his mirror because she's a flawed imperfect being whose own personal preferences can alter the reflection.

The Word is our mirror.

Proverbs 27:17

Also....as a husband is to be able to present his wife without spot, wrinkle or blemish...IMO, that means she is a reflection of his ministry of marriage. 1st Corinthians 11:7 seems to go along with that as well: "the woman is the glory of the man."
 
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Psalm63

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Well thats one thing I did right with mine..right now my 15 yo is "dating" a girl..hes not a uenich..but he doesnt "just want sex"..hes very emotionally sensitive and in tune to HIS and HER feelings..hes a very kind and compassionate and understanding(or he tries) person ..and thats one of the reasons WHY he said he doesnt get along well with a lot of the boys his age..he said thats all they talk about..he doesnt like them .My 22 yo is also not a hound for sex..He wants a RELATIONSIP..unfortunately right now hes not ready for one IMHO..Hes a wee bit on the 'not sure what I want to do in life" side at the moment ..and that doesnt "impress" a lot of females I dont think..not at his age..anyway there is no rush..But boys ..MY boys anyway dont 'just want sex"..and they werent just born that way..I TALKED to them about sex and relationships at length..when the opportununity arose over the years..which if you are yourself in tune with your children is frequently..and this time it paid off...

Dallas

:thumbsup: My adult son resisted the culture and his hormones and remained a virgin until marriage (at age 21). My younger sons 9 and 11 haven't hit puberty and the hormone rush yet, but we have filters on our computer to protect them from porn exposure and the Centerfold Syndrome.

The 14 yod and I were talking to the 11 yo yesterday about the coming hormone rush and the way that plays out with some boys and how his older brother is such a good role model of self control and we are all rooting for him and confident that he will make good decisions too.
 
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chaz345

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Proverbs 27:17

Also....as a husband is to be able to present his wife without spot, wrinkle or blemish...IMO, that means she is a reflection of his ministry of marriage. 1st Corinthians 11:7 seems to go along with that as well: "the woman is the glory of the man."


BIG difference between her being a reflection of his ministry and her being a reflection that shows him his areas of failing which was the context I was responding to. He has the holy spirit to convict him of areas where he's failing, it's not her job to also do that.
 
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