Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?

[someguy14]

The Lake of Fire is the second death. This does not refute my position that the wages of sin are actual death. It confirms my position, that the lost are destroyed, they go to their death. Revelation 20:14 actually refutes your position, because you claim that the lost do not die the second death, but are kept alive in torment instead.

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

 

[spirit1st]

I been kicked off forums just for my testimonies!But it one of the three ways we overcome and God told me a few years back to start giving them!
I have died both ways ,I never went into hell or heaven [New Jerusalem] I could have entered heaven , but knew if i did? I would not want to come back to this body !

The sinner first feels the sting of death !Fear so great it worse than anything on earth!They drop slowly down to the lower parts of the earth!Begging GOD for mercy! The Christian goes right to New Jerusalem , So fast you cannot think even one thought! That our natural home after salvation!

Death is really separation from God! Once born of god , we are never separated from HIM.Because He dwelling in our Spirit forever more!


Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Rom_8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom_8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Eph_2:22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit

This is all our problem after Salvation!
our flesh minds thinking has our spirit mind in Subjection to some degree?
That is why some appear more Christ -like outwardly and others appear very carnal!

It our flesh mind that needs renewed! Changed in its thinking , by reading and accepting Gods living Words as Truth . above all ewe feel and see!

Now that is Very hard for us! Seeing we are taught from babies to live by Sight! now we must live by Faith. accepting gods word over what we see!

Rom_1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
Gal_3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

He never left me or forsaken me! If He was going to leave any of us? Surely He would have dumped me a long time ago!

I had one of my Sons die, who i loved so very much!
I went behind a bush at the hospital and prayed! I said LORD you must tell me did my son go to heaven or hell! I cannot stand thinking He might be suffering in hell!
He said? was He born again? I said Yes LORD! He said i ever leave you or forsake you? I said No LORD! He said why would i forsake Him?
Meaning to me ? You lived lots long and did much more evil!

My son was 26 years old!

 

[someguy14]

God Loves us very much friend.

 

[razeontherock]

This seems to be in line with what the Old Testament teaches. In my old thread on Hell, I argued (after reading something by someone else on these forums) that Hell wasn't preached in the Old Testament. Sheol is described as the grave and no such thing as eternal punishment can be found in the OT. Hell (or what the church teaches as Hell) only makes its appearance in the NT.

I think there is a lot of validity in what you're saying here. Maybe the church did get it wrong after all. In which case, the question is why they've been teaching an eternal hell all these years - a genuine misunderstanding of scripture or something more sinister?

How many theological schools were there before 200 AD? I'm not sure, but something like 5. And 2 of them taught annihilationalism. So like a 40% minority. It would be good to have the actual facts of this on the thread, rather than just my vague memory ...

 

[razeontherock]

Aionios is simply the adjective form of the word aion, "age".

It doesn't intrinsically mean "endless duration", but rather speaks of an undefined duration.

I'm completely comfortable, and in fact it is specifically my prayer and hope, that Hell doesn't last perpetually.

Some of the ancient arguments that questioned Perpetualism had to do with what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, namely that after Christ defeats the last enemy, Death, and hands all things over to His Father, that God will be "all in all". It's part of a larger conundrum, if into eternity there is a segment of reality still unreconciled then is evil truly dealt with, can it be said that God is all in all?

It's why I don't think Christianity can fall dogmatically on this issue and simply must leave all things to God. It's a longstanding and ancient hope of the Christian Church, to hope and pray for the universal reconciliation of all.

-CryptoLutheran

And again, I have to agree with that. It's amazing how the first time I read the key passage you cite, that was the exact train of thought I gleaned from it. That was over 40 years ago, and the moment was just re-lived. Timeless ...

 

[razeontherock]

Is it really such a hard thing to ask of a deity that they leave behind clear instructions?

No, it's an impossibility. There is reality, and there is perception. And then there is language. Maybe this classic will speak to you?

Billie Holiday God Bless The Child - YouTube

The only way to explain such differences of opinion on Scriptural interpretation as evidenced by this thread is that the Bible is littered with contradictions.

Not at all. WE each have a perspective. Put that all together, and it STILL doesn't paint the complete picture; but we're getting closer

 

[razeontherock]

I am willing to admit that the Bible doesn't tell us everything.

The Bible is also not a manual of metaphysical facts, useful for all those who wish for accurate information to assist them in circumventing God's plans. It happens to be quite sufficient in pointing out the correct way TO God, but if that is not our intention then like the Tower of Babble, our efforts suffer confusion.

The Bible very accurately speaks of a potential relationship we can have with our God, and how we can expect things to work to that end. Why is that not enough?

 

[razeontherock]

Because, for one thing, the loudest voices in Christendom right now are those who are using the Bible as an authority over science. These fundies have taken over the US Republican Party and are trying to turn America into some kind of theocracy.

No, it's really not like that Just media spin

 

[razeontherock]

Mmm candy And Candy - YouTube

Its the same word exchange is what I was pointing out in both, as I pointed out the same on another thread we were both on. And the quote of Paul comes from the OT (Hebrew) where the NT (Greek) comparison can be made even though the words are different.

But we can just call it "candyland" for now (just so words dont get in the way).

The dead are shown in both the sea (which delivered up) and the dead are shown in both death and in hades (lets call it candyland) which delivered up the dead "in them" as well.

 

[spirit1st]

God made the scriptures so the World would not understand!

1Co_1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

2Ti_3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.


Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Rom 8:6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

There are things GOD has not fully revealed to Us!
My dad started reading the bible to be when Very young! I was 4 years old when He died! I was not Born -again till 1972!

since then i never stopped learning! It takes a long time before we know Lots! but even then there is more to learn!

I do not worry about the things i do not perfectly understand!I just accept it as truth and move on till He reveals it to me or Not?

 

[Montalban]

Matthew 25:41
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

Absolutely!

 

[Montalban]

Are you saying John 3:16 is about avoiding torture? whoever believes in Him shall not PERISH...Obviously there is no torture pit of hell, and I'm not mixing verses. John 3:16 contrasts perishing with eternal life and says nothing whatsoever about torture.

I'm saying that if one is 'saved' by God he/she has eternal life.

I don't need to "straw-man" I just quote the bible and the position of eternal torment in hell is shown to be false.

where you are straw-manning people is saying that your argument is against those that believe in a firey pit. I made no such argument.

The Lake of Fire is the second death. This does not refute my position that the wages of sin are actual death.

No it doesn't.

It's a synthesis you've derived at for no reason.

 

[Zaac]

Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment in store for unbelievers?

No. It teaches that there is an eternal LAKE OF FIRE for unbelievers. Hell gets thrown in the Lake of Fire.

According to Romans 6:23, the wages of sin is death, not eternal torment.

You're still confused about what Biblical death is.

According to 2 Thessalonians 1:9, The penalty to be paid is destruction, not eternal torment.

2 Thes. 1:9 says 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.


Now using the FULL Counsel of the word, how does one reconcile this "everlasting destruction" with what the rest of the word says will happen when Jesus Christ returns?

According to the book of revelation, the lake of fire is the second death, not eternal torment.

And what does the FULL Counsel of the word say that the Lake of Fire is? And as you are confused about what death is, it kinda entes into your understanding of what the first and second death mean.

According to John 3:16, the fate of those who reject Christ is to perish, not suffer eternal torment.

You're also confused about what Biblical perishing is.

According to Ezekiel, the soul who sins will die, not suffer eternal torment.

Yep you're still confused about dying and death.

 

[Timothew]

Yep you're still confused about dying and death.

I don't feel too bad being told that I'm confused about dying and death by you.

Are you are one of the people who believe that dead people are conscious?

 

[good brother]

Are you are one of the people who believe that dead people are conscious?

Jesus seemed to think dead people are conscious. He told a story to such.

Luke 16:22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’​

The rich man in hell was conscious as was Lazarus in paradise.

There's another passage which demonstrates that the dead are conscious. It's found in 1st Peter 3.

1 Peter 3:19 After being made alive, he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits— 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water​

It would have been rather fool hardy of Jesus to waste His time ministering to unconscious dead people unless they were conscious and could hear what He had to say.

There's another passage which shows dead people being able to hear. They could not hear if they were unconscious.

John 5:28-29 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment.​

There's more than enough verses for me to be "one of those people who think dead people are conscious".

In Christ, GB

 

[spirit1st]

Spirit beings do not die or sleep as we might think sleep is!
We see in scriptures! In heaven they are talking too each other and the LORD JESUS CHRIST! in Hell Abraham spoke to others!

Rev_6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

Luk_16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

 

[spirit1st]

You might not believe me? But i have been DEAD twice !
The first time i did everything the pastor had told me! Yet was not born -again! I died and first felt the sting of DEATH1 It fear way above anything we feel on earth1 Dropping slowly into darkness toward hell1 I begged JESUS to give me another chance! Then i was back my body ! I shook so bad i thought my body would fall apart!

Later i went into the hospital for some tests ! i got od ed ! This time i went to new Jerusalem .as i had been Born -again by that time. This is no longer counted as our Home! New Jerusalem is! We are there so Quickly we do not have time to even think one thought!

Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

our flesh bodies belong here! They are part of this earth! We are not!

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

 

[benglobal]

Has anybody stopped to think of one death as metaphorical and one as literal. The second death is literal. Have a look at what spirit 1st has said to get a understanding (if not a bit subjective) of this. Life is eternal and heaven or hell is our creation based on our acceptance of the spirit (positive interconnection and relationship) and allowing that action to drive our lives. Yes the dead are conscious as they are the ones alive TODAY living life without acceptance of the spirit, as above and any judgment from God gets metered out in life by how we feel based on how we act. Comprende ? So to blaspheme against the spirit would be to understand and not act out through the spirit as above, not through words.

 

[spirit1st]

Listen At Salvation our Old spirit [old Man dies]never dies again!

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is Crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Our old Nailed to his cross !Gone forever More !

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;
Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

 

[Montalban]

I don't feel too bad being told that I'm confused about dying and death by you.

Are you are one of the people who believe that dead people are conscious?

There's the story in the NT about the person who can't stand the torment and begs that his family get told of the dangers of sin so that they don't end up in the same place as he.

Luke 16:19 ff