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Does the bible teach that there is a hell of eternal torment for unbelievers?
- Thread starter Timothew
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The correct translation is "eternal punishment." Not "eternal torment." That means final. The final punishment is death of the soul. A soul is both body and spirit. The words "Hell, Hades and Tartarus" was introduced into scriptures by the Catholics.
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pinkputter
unending love, amazing grace
Oh ok so you say I'm playing a "superiority" game, while I'm getting messages from people saying I'm very understanding.
I'm rereading my last post addressed to you and I really have no idea how you could interpret that as me acting in a superior way.
The reality is, I don't think of myself in a superior way, and desperately wish you could see that I'm posting in a very sincere way. I genuinely wanted to know your thoughts to that question.
I'm not here to sugarcoat, and I'm sorry if that has led you to feel disrespected. This isn't the first time we've clashed tariki, but I do hope it's the last.
But, I do want to add this. This isn't "about me" It's about God. I'm not here to debate with people about their opinions of me on this forum. People (all nonbelievers) have been very generous with the insults and name calling, and that's not why I'm here. I try to see the good in others, and show them truth. Thats why I'm here.
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elopez
Well-Known Member
Instead of me going out to buy the book, being that I'm a little broke now (just lost the rest of my check in a poker game) why not give me a short synopsis of what his argument is? Because as far as I can tell there is no indication that points to a difference between the Greek word eternal in the same sentence...
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Tariki
Guest
No, it is never about us.
Sorry, from my perspective your total lack of self knowledge is palpable.
While you are not here to have others voice their opinions of YOU, you imply opinions of them in each and every post. (And I note others have said as much, irrespective of some who find you "understanding")
No, we will not "clash" again, until you begin to actually answer some of the points made by me, rather than ignore them with a wave of the keyboard and the implication that you are in some sort of spiritual wonderland unknown to non-christians.
All the best
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elopez
Well-Known Member
Why not just start it yourself then?
Right, I would agree so far as to either the Bible is unclear or one's interpretation is erroneous, but if it isn't the Bible and just the one it isn't God's fault. I quoted Matthew 25:46 for Scriptural evidence of an eternal punishment after death. That, to me, is clear as day. That makes it the others interpretation to be lacking in clarity, which again is not God's fault.
I don't think the Bible is littered with such contradictions. Sure you can sit here and say that all day but why not just cut to the chase and actually show the contradictions? Why not be more reasonable than quoting some atheistic website that has been ridiculed?
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ViaCrucis
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Both Hades and Tartarus are found in the original Greek texts. Hell is a translation found in Germanic languages based on the Norse Hel, a comparable concept in said languages for the Greek Hades or the Hebrew She'ol.
-CryptoLutheran
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Grumpy Old Man
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1 Kings 7:26 (KJV): And it was an hand breadth thick, and the brim thereof was wrought like the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies: it contained two thousand baths.
2 Chronicles 4:5 (KJV): And the thickness of it was an handbreadth, and the brim of it like the work of the brim of a cup, with flowers of lilies; and it received and held three thousand baths.
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2 Samuel 17:25 (KJV): And Absalom made Amasa captain of the host instead of Joab: which Amasa was a man's son, whose name was Ithra an Israelite, that went in to Abigail the daughter of Nahash, sister to Zeruiah Joab's mother.
1 Chronicles 2:17 (KJV): And Abigail bare Amasa: and the father of Amasa was Jether the Ishmeelite.
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1 Samuel 21:1 (KJV): Then David came to Nob to Ahimelech the priest.
Mark 2:25-26 (KJV): Have ye never read what David did ... How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest?
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Ezra 2:5 (KJV): The children of Arah, seven hundred seventy and five.
Nehemiah 7:10 (KJV): The children of Arah, six hundred fifty and two.
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2 Samuel 10:18 (KJV): And the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew the men of seven hundred chariots of the Syrians, and forty thousand horsemen, and smote Shobach the captain of their host, who died there.
1 Chronicles 19:18 (KJV): But the Syrians fled before Israel; and David slew of the Syrians seven thousand men which fought in chariots, and forty thousand footmen, and killed Shophach the captain of the host.
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There's loads more, such as the different accounts of Jesus' resurrection (the women and angels at the grave in each Gospel account contradict each other), the people who accused Peter of being one of Jesus' disciples (again, there are a few different accounts in the Gospels that contradict each other), the manner of Judas's death (did he hang himself or stumble and burst, or a combination of both as Christians say?) - these are usually the main ones for me. Sure, some of them can be explained away as scribe errors (such as the number contradictions above), but this is the word of God we're talking about.
Also, the fact that there are so many Protestant denominations all screaming they're the right one, proves there are enough contradictions (or enough ambiguity) in the Bible to cause such divisions. The Bible, if not contradictory in some places, is a confused book jumbled together by people who should have edited it properly first. If this had been done there wouldn't be so much confusion in the church today over what to believe. This thread is a good example of the divisions caused by your unclear Bible; everyone has their own interpretation but no one can actually say they understand the Bible as God intended it. You expect non-believers to worship your God, yet you yourselves can't even agree on what we're supposed to believe.
I would rather keep this thread on topic, but you baited me into providing some contradictions. I expect you'll find some vague excuse for them (scribe errors as I already mentioned, or different witness perspectives in the case of the Gospels). The fact that there are errors in the Bible (such as the numerical ones described above) should make one, at the very least, wonder why God hasn't maintained the integrity of his own words throughout the centuries.
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Tobias
Relationship over Religion
At the time of Christ, I see a bit of both religions present in the beliefs of the Jewish people. Which only makes sense. They encountered Zoroastrianism in Babylon, where the belief in the final resurrection of the dead is taught. Then later the Greeks conquered the world, and brought with them the belief in Hades. The idea from the parable about Lazarus that Hades is separated into a place of torment, and a place of blessing (Abraham's bosom), fits quite well with Greek beliefs.
To this day we have differing Christian opinions. One that people sleep when they die, waiting for the Resurrection; the other that people immediately go to either heaven or hell. Why is this so? IMO it's because the Bible never made the distinction between these two very different pictures of the afterlife!
I am willing to admit that the Bible doesn't tell us everything. I think Moses did his best to write a meaningful creation story; and borrowed that bit about the Great Flood from what he simply believed to be true. But the Bible is not a book of science, nor is it a book of history. It is a record of the works of God, preserved by God and passed on to us so that we can better know our God.
The Bible is also not a manual of metaphysical facts, useful for all those who wish for accurate information to assist them in circumventing God's plans. It happens to be quite sufficient in pointing out the correct way TO God, but if that is not our intention then like the Tower of Babble, our efforts suffer confusion.
Many Christians over the centuries have tried to use the Bible to gain knowledge other than what it was intended for. The typical position of any Church official is one of "I KNOW", rather than as a humble seeker of his God. We have taken some of the Apostle Paul's personal letters to his friends, and dissect them searching for answers to the Universe; claiming that they are "infallible" when God never ever indicated that they were! But the Church feels it must claim it is so, possibly so that we can dazzle the secular minds of this world with our superior foreknowledge of things unknown. (Which as it turns out is completely undazzling, and we are left looking like complete fools!)
The Bible very accurately speaks of a potential relationship we can have with our God, and how we can expect things to work to that end. Why is that not enough?
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Grumpy Old Man
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Because, for one thing, the loudest voices in Christendom right now are those who are using the Bible as an authority over science. These fundies have taken over the US Republican Party and are trying to turn America into some kind of theocracy.
Secondly, the Bible itself seems to demand that it be read literally.
Thirdly, as I've stated in this thread, the Bible is a cause for division (when it comes to interpreting it) in the Church. Ultimately, everything you've said is just your opinion of the Bible. The next person who posts in this thread will have an entirely different opinion on what the Bible says.
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Why does it matter to you?
Or are you only trying to convince me that my horse is dead so that I give up and your horse wins the race by default? Does your side have so little support that you don't want the matter investigated?
You brought up Matthew 25:46 again, as if it would convince me now when it failed before, but I can tell you again why κόλασιν αἰώνιον does not mean "eternal torture in hell". κόλασιν (kolasin) means "a pruning", the word is formed from the word κολάζω (kolazo, cut off) which comes from kolos (dwarf). In this parable, those on the left are cut off eternally. Their lives are cut short. The effect of this is permanent, aionion. They can't have eternal life in torment because eternal life is what the OTHER group gets, the group on the right side. According to you the son of man says to the group on the right, "go off into eternal life" and then says to the group on the left "And you go off into eternal life too". That doesn't fit the parable.
Also you have never made your case that being dead forever is a "temporary" punishment. How so? After you are dead forever, do you become alive again?
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crimsonleaf
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It could be argued that if the unsaved suffer eternal punishment, and we understand (as many do) that the punishment is separation from God, then death as we normally understand it fits the bill. Death as both Christians and atheists agree, isn't temporary and is therefore (in this context) eternal.
The real argument is exactly how aware are the dead of their condition, not how long it lasts.
The real argument is exactly how aware are the dead of their condition, not how long it lasts.
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Well, that,s the question.
Can a body without life feel anything?
A hand in a glove, if a glove is lying on a table, it is lifeless, when a hand comes into it, it starts moving about, when the hand is taken out of the glove, where does it go?
If the glove is the body, and the hand is the driving force,soul/spirit, if the soul/spirit cannot die, can it be seperated from it,s scource?
These kind of questions, I wonder over quite a lot.
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If you assume the soul can't die,
If you assume the soul is something separate that animates the body and leaves at death.
I don't think these things can be proven from the bible. (Which was the OP requirement, "does the bible teach...")
According to the bible, the soul can die, Ezekiel 18, the soul that sins will die. Also see Matthew 10:28.
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someguy14
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These are too easy to solve. Though I must admit, you'd have to do some reading of the accounts. Do you have any others that your holding onto, cause that isn't really enough of an excuse for your lack of faith.
Hebrews 13:6
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Grumpy Old Man
Well-Known Member
Look, I'm not interested in trying to convert you to atheism, or even making you doubt your own precious Bible. Someone asked me to list some contradictions. I did. End of (as far as I'm concerned). I've actually done this debate a few times now and seen it done on other forums. No side wins. If you've got an axe to grind, take it up elsewhere.
And no, the contradictions in the Bible weren't the cause of me losing my faith. They certainly contributed to it but I gave up Christianity for a myriad of reasons, which is not the topic of this thread and therefore I won't go into them.
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someguy14
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I didn't intend to offend. I apologize if I came across that way. I was kinda thinking you had an axe to grind and was going to offer myself as a sort of whipping boy, so to speak. I have found 2 of them not to be contradictions and felt no need to prove the others. I don't want to argue either. Besides, Im kinda exhausted, long night. God bless.
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Grumpy Old Man
Well-Known Member
Good.
Debating Bible contradictions is actually very tedious. Like I said, no one wins. If you don't believe they're contradictions I'm not going to convince you otherwise, and you're not likely to convince me they're not contradictions either (I've already seen some of the explanations, some could work if you're willing to stretch your imagination, others don't). Anyway, like I said, I'm happy to just leave it at that. I have no axe to grind with this stuff again either.
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